What is the appeal of leveling up in MMORPGs?

[LilithSlave]

I often am one of the people who says "what's the fun in grinding" in MMORPGs.

And to that I'm always given the answer "to level up". But what's the appeal of leveling up?

"To feel stronger and accomplished", they say. But what's the point of feeling stronger?

There has to be more worth to that, and MMORPGs just tend to not give it.

I mean, with offline RPGs like Final Fantasy VI, I can see it a little. You're trying to save the world. You lose, you lose. There's something at stake. It feels cool to feel powerful when something is at stake or you feel the level matters to something.

Or heck, MMORPGs don't need big stories like jRPGs and all that character development. It can just be a wRPG sandbox. I don't think it's as appealing to level up in a Sandobox as a "jRPG". But in either case, here's what both offline RPGs have that MMORPGs don't: content. wRPGs are striving for options and meaningful choices. I'm not a huge wRPG fan, I don't even really play them because I just don't like them. But here's something wRPGs have that MMORPGs don't: meaningful choices. The Elder Scrolls may be a sandbox just like MMORPGs. But here's the difference, wRPGs are sandboxes with content. There's actually something to do and it's not all about your level. They don't focus on content being related to your level. And jRPGs, you know what they have that MMORPGs don't? Each character having a different story, a different, hopefully good characterization, and there tends to be character development.

Do MMORPGs have character development? No, they do not. No game mechanic is based upon roleplay. You can claim users can "roleplay" with each other if they like. But people can do that in any Massively Multiplayer Sandbox. Heck, you can roleplay in Second Life, and Second Life is basically like a visual Facebook that I'm aware. But that logic you could call Second Life an RPG, but it isn't one. MMORPGs don't have roleplaying mechanics. They don't have moral decision making of any variety, and they don't even have any characterization. They're just an avatar for who you are in real life, not a character. You speak like you're in a chat room, a computer user, a person on the other side, not a contributing member of a fictional realm. So I don't see how it's roleplaying unless you're a roleplayer. But even then, roleplayers are many times divorced from the gameplay mechanics.

So what is the point of being a high level? There is no point in being a high level for the sake of being a high level. So what does it do? So you can fight better? What are you fighting for? If you lose, will there be consequences? Is there anything at stake at all?

I'm not trying to make a topic just like the one about Kingdom Hearts earlier that the user made and just got embarrassed. But... I just don't get it. What's the point. It seems like, to me, for the most, MMORPG creators miss the point of an "RPG game". I play MMORPGs, I do have a little fun, but it feels shallow. My level feels meaningless, and I feel like I have to impress the memories and thoughts of offline RPGs to be remotely immersed. I have to associate things with meanings that offline RPGs give them that online ones don't. And I'm in a minority. It feels like I'm in a barren wasteland of a sandbox trying to push my own interpretation on the games in order to have more fun or for any of them to have any meaning. I have to play pretend, while in a video game, for any of it to feel meaningful. And this is the only genre I feel like that with. Something is wrong about this picture.

Are there any MMORPGs that see past this staleness? Other than maybe Eve Online and Guild Wars? Are MMORPGs going to see past this and work towards a better path? Am I just missing something and not looking at it from the right perspective? Because when I look at what I find appealing about RPGs, I don't see the important things in Online ones. I just, I don't get it. And I wish I did. It doesn't feel like fun. It doesn't feel like adventure. It doesn't feel like immersion. It feels like a graphical chat room.

 

[DazZ.]

If you don't find it fun, you just don't find it fun.

There is no point in over analysing things that you just don't like, it's personal taste and what not. All the things you're seeing as bad things in some games (graphical chat room/levelling) are selling points to other people. You seem to much prefer story in games rather than the spreadsheet style of combat a lot of MMOs are based on.

Just play something you like, not liking MMOs can save you a hell of a lot of money.

 

[weker]

Leveling in MMO is the same reason ppl go after achievements, they are seeking a goal which makes the game more entertaining. There is an objective which drives them to play.

 

[intheweeds]

I have been in PM's with a friend the last few days about The Old Republic vs. my time with WoW. I quit WoW recently.

I think you are right in a lot of ways. The driving force for me was playing endgame raids with my guild. I think at the end of the day it's really all about that. Sometimes the raiding is only a front for the real goal: standing around a major city looking cool in raid gear. When other people are involved such as in a raiding guild, you have a guilt drive as well.

My friend is in ToR beta just now. He says it is far more like a single player game (plays like KOTOR), with areas where you can choose to group up if you want. This sounds a lot more healthy to me. WoW is very centered around everyone raiding or doing high level pvp. Either way, you must schedule your life around it and your groups if you want to succeed. If you don't want to succeed at either of these things, then WoW doesn't really have anything for you day to day.

If ToR is like this, I think it's the better way to do MMO's. The days of four nights a week raiding schedules is dying. As well it should, it encourages you to give up RL experiences, it is extremely unhealthy.

 

[Stall]

Okay.

1) MMOs do have character development. It's leveling up your character. It's not character development in terms of some kind of plot or the story you set-up for your character (albeit this is possible), but instead in the form of stats and skills and talents. Leveling up is quite literally how you develop your character.

2) There is a point to being high level. It can vary from game to game, but in a classic "theme park" type MMO (a la WOW), it's to see and play more content, preferably with friends. It's fun and rewarding to level up, plus you get to do more in the game; therefore, you like to level up.

If you don't get MMOs, then you don't get 'em. There are plenty of people who do love MMOs, and if you don't understand the appeal, then there's no shame in not playing em.

Just play something you like, not liking MMOs can save you a hell of a lot of money.

Wrong. MMOs are considerably cheaper than normal games. The cost to playtime ratio for MMOs is significantly higher than normal games.

Here:
You play an MMO for a year. It's the only game you play during this time. It comes out to about 205 dollars. Let's assume you play it for, an average of, 8 hours a week. That's not unreasonable, correct? 205/8*52... which comes out to about 50 cents per hour of play.

So maybe you are more casual. Let's say you play for 4 hours a week. 205/(4*52) = 0.98, so a little under a dollar per hour of gameplay.

Now, let's say you buy a new game every month. Each new game runs you 60 dollars. That's 720 for a year. You can play each one for an average of 24 hours. 720/(24*12) comes out to about 2.5 dollars per hour of playtime, which is almost five times more expensive than playing MMOs.

Heck, let's say you buy a new game every other month, so now you only spend 360 per year. You're committed to getting your moneys worth, so you play each game for 36 hours. 360/(36*6), which is about 1.66 dollasr per hour of play... which is STILL more expensive than BOTH the scenarios I gave for MMOs.

Not liking MMOs kind of hurts your wallet in the long run

 

[edthehyena]

Most MMORPGs have roleplay servers where you do actually play in-character. A well-made game (of any sort) doesn't make you go out and level up. You play the game because the mechanics are fun or the story is interesting or you want to hang out with your friends or whatever other reason you have, and in the process of killing things, your level goes up.

Personally, I think the real problem here is that it's very hard to design a good MMO. Other games have the advantage of featuring a single hero. You get to play The Hero, The One, The Guy. In an MMO, it's hard to feel like your character is at all special, because there are thousands of heroes just like you. If WoW were single-player, you could be THE GUY who took down the Lich King, but in the MMOG world, you're one of thousands, and he just gets back up a week later for you to kill him again.

All that said, I actually enjoyed leveling up my WoW character because I leveled up with my friends, and we went through every instance in Azeroth. There was an actual difficulty curve to the game while we leveled, rather than the time commitment that you get questing. Again, this goes back to game design. MMOs are made so that you just have to invest time in leveling up. You don't actually have to learn to play the game any better until you hit endgame content. Leveling up starts with quests of killing 20 mobs that hit you for about 2% of your health each time, and ends with pretty much the same quest, just with different mobs. The game isn't made in a way that challenges you to push the game mechanics until you hit endgame content.

 

[DazZ.]

Just play something you like, not liking MMOs can save you a hell of a lot of money.

Wrong.
-snip-
Not liking MMOs kind of hurts your wallet in the long run

You can't just outright claim that a possibility is wrong, seeing as it's obviously going to occur in some cases. Note that I said 'can' whereas you assume everyone plays the games they get for an average of hours and say there isn't outcome where you spend more on MMOs...

Also, holy fuck I'd hate to play solely one game.

I can't remember a time I last bought a game for 60 dollars and I play the games I buy on average for around 100 hours, as I tend to only splash out on multiplayer games that have enough depth to suck me in for a while.
Most of my other games come from Steam sales that cost around £3 (whatever that is in dollars) and last me well over 20 hours.

No way would buying and sustaining an MMO give me more hours of enjoyment for my money, and it would also completely gimp my entertainment verity.

 

[LilithSlave]

It's leveling up your character.

Obviously that's not the kind of "development" I'm talking about. I have a hard time feeling immersed in something with the feeling the characters I'm running around with have no psychological depths and characters, only the players in real life. And it's a game, it's a fictional realm, the characters should feel as if having depth, not just players.

Ironically, because of this I have found because of this, MMORPGs can often be less immersive than non-RPG genres that have almost no text or anything. Heck, I actually felt more character out of Samus in Super Metroid than I typically do in MMORPG characters.

stats and skills and talents. Leveling up is quite literally how you develop your character.

And I find that to be utterly flat and pointless. By character, I'm talking about meaning. Having abilities does not make a character. Without personality or characterization, they're but a mere tool. They resemble a sentient being merely in looks.

What is the point to this development? What is the meaning? Will your character's mom die from an illness if you don't go collect ingredient drops in the forest?

2) There is a point to being high level. It can vary from game to game, but in a classic "theme park" type MMO (a la WOW), it's to see and play more content, preferably with friends. It's fun and rewarding to level up, plus you get to do more in the game; therefore, you like to level up.

Even in those games with a lot of "content", the content to grind ratio is still pretty low. And it generally seems pretty divorced and static. I mean, nothing changes from this except you, usually by a new armor or something. And the "content" seems generally less than of other RPGs. I'd say being able to own a home and go out drinking and get drunk probably adds more roleplaying content to a game than some random pointless new monster quest.

If you don't get MMOs, then you don't get 'em.

I guess I don't. But I would hope I could. Since I like the idea of a roleplaying game. And I like the idea of playing online. So you would think I would like an MMORPG. But I have to join a roleplayers guild usually to have a remote amount of fun. Which is okay, but roleplayers are enjoying the game despite the game mechanics. The game mechanics themselves should be about roleplaying. Heck, a truly revolutionary MMORPG would be one so good that roleplayers guilds would be unnecessary because the gameplay itself is about roleplaying, as it should be.

I can't really understand what people like about the non-roleplaying aspects of MMORPGs and why someone would want to play and not be in a roleplaying guild. I can respect that, though. What I'm saying is, that calling it an MMORPG is misleading. I would like them to find another name if they're going to focus on that, like "MMOGUD" or "Massively Multiplayer Graphical User Dungeon". But MMORPG just doesn't seem fitting, because the gameplay isn't about roleplaying.

I want someone to make an MMORPG. One where the gameplay is about roleplaying and is made in the spirit of the MUSH instead of the MUD.

then there's no shame in not playing em.

That's not been a lot of my experience with the gaming climate lately. You're expected to like certain things and dislike others. It's a big, overly drama filled thing just like movie taste. And believing certain things can definitely get you ostracized. Not that you should care about shame and what other people think about the shows you like, the movies you watch, the games you play, the music you listen to and the clothes you were, but there's definitely a shame in liking or not liking certain video games.

MMORPGs are sort of middle of the road with that. There's a little stigma in liking them and a little stigma in not liking them. It's a kind of "no good if you do, no good if you don't scenarios".

Personally, it's mostly curiosity with me and blind hope. The first MMORPG I ever played was Final Fantasy XI, and it was right after it's release. I had happily played every Final Fantasy before it. I figured this could only be more of the same. In fact, I figured it would be the best one yet. I thought "this must be the next evolution of an RPG. Everything I like about an RPG, except on online dynamic world!". But boy was I in for a culture shock, it was nothing like that. Yes, there were some online things I had hoped for and the like. But I lost almost everything I loved about Final Fantasy and RPGs in that game. I hated it, I absolutely hated it and it was hailed as one of the best MMORPGs.

And ever since then I've been wanting to like it, but getting more of the same. I want to like MMORPGs, I really do. But they're making it hard.

The cost to playtime ratio for MMOs is significantly higher than normal games.

Not necessarily, I've played Tales of Symphonia over 600 hours. That's more than I'd want to give to any MMORPG.

Now, let's say you buy a new game every month.

You'll also get more variety I think. And personally I think more gameplay quality per hour. So the price would be worth it. You may pay more than 5 times more. But you'll get more than 5 times the content. And you can honestly playing offline games just as much. Again, I've played games like Tales of Symphonia as much as any MMORPG, and had more fun.

 

[Zarmi]

I assume it's the feel of progress. I mean, why do people want to level up in CoD? Progress, new guns, new toys etc. I assume it's that feeling.

 

[Cridhe]

It's the false sense of accomplishment you get from all your "labor" and "hard work"...

If the purpose of leveling up isn't for getting into the next tier PvP battleground, I don't see the point of leveling up. Hell I don't see the point of playing the game if the PvP is garbage.

/daoc

 

[edthehyena]

You could try one of Iron Realm's text-based MMORPGs.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Eh? The appeal is rather obvious. If you don't "get" it, then it's not to your liking, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't "get" the appeal of sports game, but I hate sports so I'd never like them in the first place.

You aren't going to prove anyone's tastes wrong. It's just not for you. Stop listening to someone's explanation of why and saying "but I don't like that, it doesn't make any sense". This is not the thing for you, and at this point you seem to be trying to somehow prove it's bad, or wrong.

 

[Rauten]

To me, it's mostly about seeing content: see the new areas, listen to new music and dialogues, search for interesting questlines, experience hard fights... that's mostly it for me.

 

[Arina Love]

from my 4 years experience with lineage 2 playing hard core. leveling up is just mean to feel your character growing and to be able to see all what game is have to offer. linage 2 open up when you reached level 78 it's almost end game but what comes next is good clans and raid bosses with good equip you will need for rest of game and many many massive PvPs and castle sieges . you work to level up because you know when you have decent equipment and hight enough levels you be reworded with almost never ending fun and mass battles with other clans. in MMOs leveling is a work and sometimes fun when you with your friends chatting on skype and levelling together, in lineage 2 it's usually killing millions mobs, no quests here. that is my take on mmo leveling .

in single player RPG leveling is to feel your character grow and become stroger and sometimes take this strength is the way you want it with different builds.

 

[cybran]

wRPG's dont have a bunch of teenagers with ridiculous hair trying save the world.
To me thats a step UP. I cant stand jRPGs...
wRPGS tend to lean more to realism in the way people behave, like elder scrolls and fallout. Or PURE fantasy, like world of warcraft.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Skinner box [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber] is the answer to that little mystery.
And any good MMO hasto abuse it to keep you compelled to play, because they simply do not have thousands of hours of content, even if they had you would grow bored of the same game.

Can be quite dangerous because it appeals to us on a subconscious level that we don't even know, and we can quickly turn into puppets when someone strokes our ego without us noticing.

 

[Arina Love]

wRPG's dont have a bunch of teenagers with ridiculous hair trying save the world.
To me thats a step UP. I cant stand jRPGs...
wRPGS tend to lean more to realism in the way people behave, like elder scrolls and fallout. Or PURE fantasy, like world of warcraft.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. i love j-rpgs and absolutely hated fallout and wow. this thread is about leveling up don't try to start J-rpg hate war it's useless.

 

[thelastmccabe]

A lot of what you are describing is why I stopped playing Wow. Wow was really only interesting when my friends were also playing it, and it was a social thing we could do together. And even then though, it wasn't actually that fun--but I was a priest, so maybe that's why I felt that way.

One thing that is cool in MMORPGS that you didn't mention is exploring the world and seeing all the different areas, especially if you've got a computer that can make them look good (which I no longer do). It's fun to do sort of a world tour and walk around everywhere. But you can get the same thing out of a game like Oblivion without all the drawbacks of MMORPGS or the monthly fee.

One thing that is pretty ironic about WoW is that the expansions they sell you that raise the level cap actually end up making them more money. A lot of people would probably say that leveling up to 80 is basically just training or a grind for the "real" content you get once you hit the level cap. And obviously, leveling to 80 takes more time and means you end up paying more in monthly fees. It's like you're paying Blizzard for the right to spend more time grinding and pay more in monthly fees just to reach the real content.

 

[Atmos Duality]

It's "The Illusion of Progress".
MMORPGs by their nature have no definitive end (beyond practical/physical limitations; not intentional limitations).

That buzz one gets for accomplishing a task is the driving psychology behind risk-reward; it could mean building something epic and creative in Minecraft, beating the soul-crushing difficulty of an old NES title, unlocking or defeating puzzles, or reaching an arbitrary quota.

The last of which is the most easily defined/created, but ultimately most futile.
Simply put, grind is busywork. It's "anti-gaming". Being rewarded for doing tasks is the most basic staple of risk-reward, but if the goal of the task is to allow for the repetition of that same task, then the goal of the task becomes fallacious in nature (circular logic).

Each other reward type has a definitive end. There is always closure. The player isn't further shackled to a numbers database at the end of it all.
Except in games where grind exists. They don't want to give you closure; they want you doing those daily quests and grinding raid bosses for as long as possible because it translates directly into more profits for the developer.

People who get addicted to "leveling up" will usually go onto justifying the grind by stating how fun the raids/pvp is. "Ends justify the means".
But I ask; why not just skip to that content? Why get stuck miring about doing the same fucking thing for months so you can grind the gear/levels to do that?

The task of grinding isn't technically challenging (it can't be if the game wants to retain a wider appeal); it's usually (nearly always) just one very simple task repeated to some arbitrarily obnoxious limit. Add in the Skinner logic (random drops) and it becomes maddening to even play the damn thing.

I must emphasize that good game design tries to avoid meaningless busywork. MMORPGs turn around and embrace it with both arms, because it's simply the most efficient way of turning a profit.
World of Warcraft and the Zynga family of games prove how effective this is.

(ASIDE: Oh the sweet sweet irony. As I write this, a young woman sits next to me playing Farmville...)

 

[LilithSlave]

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. i love j-rpgs and absolutely hated fallout and wow. this thread is about leveling up don't try to start J-rpg hate war it's useless.

And that probably explains the same sort of shallow reasoning of why I like jRPGs better than wRPGs.

I don't like realism at all. I like rainbow fairy pixel dust sprinkled all over my video games.

Though I do recognize that what wRPG creators are trying to do, make meaningful choices, is a very good idea. I just wish it came with more "teenagers with ridiculous hair trying to save the world".

Or in my case, cutesy androgynous characters in heavy political conflict.


Though that's among the more shallow things I like about jRPGs. Hey, if wRPG fans are allowed to hate jRPGs over androgyny and the like, I'm allowed to have those reasons for adding to my like of the genre. Obviously it's not all about the cutesy and androgynous characters and the lack of realism. But it certainly helps. Especially with the cover art, looking familiar and comfortable to me. Leaves a good first impression that gritty realism doesn't.

If you'll look at my avatar, that's more the kind of cover art that appeals to my demographic. Though again that's just the shallow part of the equation. Plenty of Korean MMORPGs are exactly what I'm describing. Super bright and unrealistic. But are as much of a boring contentless grind as any MMORPG. There's fantastic, adorable unrealism, but there's no depth.

Skinner box [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber] is the answer to that little mystery.
And any good MMO hasto abuse it to keep you compelled to play, because they simply do not have thousands of hours of content, even if they had you would grow bored of the same game.

I must be a lazy unmotivated human being. Because the skinnerbox effect does not work on me.

I like a good bit of character interaction, development, characterization, and meaningful choices don't hurt either. Just generally, feel like I am playing the role of a character. To me, that's where the "role" in roleplaying game comes in. Being a part of a character and role.

I wish I had 100 million dollars. I'd pay some people to make 5,000 hours worth of pure content. And I'd give every character a family and role and fill almost every NPC role I could with unique characters with a unique personal story, family, childhood, everything. I mean, I can't think of a single NPC role that couldn't be made an interesting story for a player.

Heck, a lot of fighting in MMORPGs would be a lot more interesting if characters were part of various militaries of various governments. Being but one soldier in a group of soldiers designed to protect the royal family, now that would be fun. Especially if that royal family really could die completely and permanently if I failed my duty.