What is the difference between gender and gender norms?

[CheetoDust_v1legacy]

So there are no measurable traits for being a man then because they're arbitrary and subjective. They're are vague notions of what it means to be a man that may vary from culture to culture, era to era or even person to person. That is not what a "measured traits" is.

One might call it a "social construct". It's amazing how quickly that phrase went out of favor.

Exactly. So it's not a measured trait of being a man, it's what particular individuals consider aspects of being a man.

 

[tstorm823]

Exactly. So it's not a measured trait of being a man, it's what particular individuals consider aspects of being a man.

Kind of. The issue when you get to determinations made at an individual level is that communication doesn't work individually. A viewpoint held by just one person isn't a social construct, it's a personal stance. Which is fine, if the followup to "gender is a social construct" is "so we're under no obligation to conform to it". But that's not really what's going on, the desire is to change the construct itself. Which is perfectly understandable, people don't want their identity to be perpetually branded as rebellion against society, people want to be part of society. But that requires going beyond just what particular individuals think, changing a social construct requires the cooperation of society.

 

[Saelune]

Between this and the other LGBT topic, I notice alot of non-LGBT people telling all the LGBT people how terrible we are. Hmmm...

(To the non-LGBT people on here who ARE actually allies, we appreciate you)

I mean "A lot of" is like 2 here.

Have you looked at the other topic I mentioned?

 

[Satinavian]

Between this and the other LGBT topic, I notice alot of non-LGBT people telling all the LGBT people how terrible we are. Hmmm...

(To the non-LGBT people on here who ARE actually allies, we appreciate you)

I mean "A lot of" is like 2 here.

Have you looked at the other topic I mentioned?

Even I have no clue which other topic you are talking about. Maybe add a link or something.

 

[Saelune]

Between this and the other LGBT topic, I notice alot of non-LGBT people telling all the LGBT people how terrible we are. Hmmm...

(To the non-LGBT people on here who ARE actually allies, we appreciate you)

I mean "A lot of" is like 2 here.

Have you looked at the other topic I mentioned?

Even I have no clue which other topic you are talking about. Maybe add a link or something.

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1057330-Politics-Trump-LBGT-Ally

 

[Satinavian]

Ah, OK.

Yes, missed that one because i stopped reading "Trump didn't keep promises every sane person knew he wouldn't keep anyway"- threads.

Maybe i should read it if it moved away from Trump being a liar to actual LGBT topics. Then it might be interesting.

Edit :

What a waste of time. Just talk about some Blair White person and forumites attacking each other agressively. Quite a shitshow but actual LBGT stuff or even opinions about transpeople are not even discussed. Just presummed to attak posters.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

You seem to be conflating how you feel with the reality of your being. You may feel like less of a person when you suffer from these conditions, but you still ARE just as much of a person as you were. How you feel about it doesn't matter. It seems incomprehensible to me that you can't understand that just because you feel like less of a person that doesn't affect anything. A baby can barely do anything for themselves outside of cry for help but they have just as many human rights as a decathlete. If someone does something to you that's legal to do to non-persons but illegal to do to persons, they'll go to jail just as much. Your line of reasoning is what had been used back centuries ago as an excuse to abuse the mentally ill.

Yeah but dude, its your line of reasoning. You're the one saying that we should ignore how people feel and what they think about themselves in order to ignore things you don't understand or find uncomfortable. If even you are saying your logic is outmoded and cruel then why are you still using it?

You literally can't become different amounts of a person. Nobody can be more of a person and nobody can be less of one for as long as they live.

Unless they do something you don't like in which case they're fair game for you to call them delusional, like you've been doing here

The measured traits are whatever traits the person who is undergoing testosterone treatment is aiming to enhance in themselves. Things like deeper voice and facial hair and so on are some of them.

So not measured traits at all then is what you're saying there basically

 

[Abomination]

You seem to be conflating how you feel with the reality of your being. You may feel like less of a person when you suffer from these conditions, but you still ARE just as much of a person as you were. How you feel about it doesn't matter. It seems incomprehensible to me that you can't understand that just because you feel like less of a person that doesn't affect anything. A baby can barely do anything for themselves outside of cry for help but they have just as many human rights as a decathlete. If someone does something to you that's legal to do to non-persons but illegal to do to persons, they'll go to jail just as much. Your line of reasoning is what had been used back centuries ago as an excuse to abuse the mentally ill.

Yeah but dude, its your line of reasoning. You're the one saying that we should ignore how people feel and what they think about themselves in order to ignore things you don't understand or find uncomfortable. If even you are saying your logic is outmoded and cruel then why are you still using it?

They never said people should outright ignore how people feel, but to understand why people feel that way.

You literally can't become different amounts of a person. Nobody can be more of a person and nobody can be less of one for as long as they live.

Unless they do something you don't like in which case they're fair game for you to call them delusional, like you've been doing here

A delusional person is not less of a person than a non-delusional person.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

You seem to be conflating how you feel with the reality of your being. You may feel like less of a person when you suffer from these conditions, but you still ARE just as much of a person as you were. How you feel about it doesn't matter. It seems incomprehensible to me that you can't understand that just because you feel like less of a person that doesn't affect anything. A baby can barely do anything for themselves outside of cry for help but they have just as many human rights as a decathlete. If someone does something to you that's legal to do to non-persons but illegal to do to persons, they'll go to jail just as much. Your line of reasoning is what had been used back centuries ago as an excuse to abuse the mentally ill.

Yeah but dude, its your line of reasoning. You're the one saying that we should ignore how people feel and what they think about themselves in order to ignore things you don't understand or find uncomfortable. If even you are saying your logic is outmoded and cruel then why are you still using it?

They never said people should outright ignore how people feel, but to understand why people feel that way.

When you compare [https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1057368-What-is-the-difference-between-gender-and-gender-norms#24317340] trans folk to flat earthers you are calling them delusional. And that would just be the first example I found, how much do you want to bet I can find more if I go through the whole topic?

You literally can't become different amounts of a person. Nobody can be more of a person and nobody can be less of one for as long as they live.

Unless they do something you don't like in which case they're fair game for you to call them delusional, like you've been doing here

A delusional person is not less of a person than a non-delusional person.

You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

 

[Abomination]

You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

What?

I am sorry, but your reading comprehension is seriously failing. Nobody has said anything about someone not being "properly people", rather they're insisting that there is nothing that can make a person less than a person.

You're insisting that Dreiko believes trans people are lesser people when they have been explicit about it not being possible to be a lesser person in any way. Or you're insisting that calling someone delusional makes them a lesser person... or whatever. I honestly can't follow because you've made this illogical leap somewhere without following what has been said and arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

I'm mostly baffled.

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Basically people can only be called delusional if someone thinks they're less of a person as a sort of masked slight, according to him. Nobody can just be being delusional.

 

[Silvanus]

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Perhaps in those exact words. I still consider it pretty dehumanizing to dismiss somebody's sense of self and identity, and insist that you know it better than they do themselves.

And to be clear: that's exactly what those who call trans people "delusional" are doing.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Perhaps in those exact words. I still consider it pretty dehumanizing to dismiss somebody's sense of self and identity, and insist that you know it better than they do themselves.

And to be clear: that's exactly what those who call trans people "delusional" are doing.

I'm not calling trans people delusional, I am calling all people who take testosterone and think they became more of a man due to that delusional, based on the reasoning of your gender being about how you identify and not what substances are in your body, which is what trans people themselves claim to be the case.


Trans people who are just trans but don't take testosterone to "become a man" (it's even fine if they take it for a different reason) are not who I'm calling delusional. The delusion that I'm referring to isn't even feeling like you're the other sex, I actually have no idea what to describe that. I just know a chick who feels like she's a dude and takes testosterone is just as much of a man as she was before she took it. I make no determination about how much of a man that is, I'm just saying that thinking the testosterone is making a difference is delusional.

If someone tries to beat me up and tries to kill me, I won't kill them back in return. I'll incapacitate them to a degree where I'm not in danger any longer but I'm not going to go ahead and kill them just because that's what they tried to do to me. To even think of doing that is evil in my eyes.

I work for a school, and we have to undergo active shooter training. Ihe training was administered by two State Troopers, and when asked what would happen if one of staff got the gun away from the shooter and shot him in turn, what would the legal consequences be? The senior Trooper's exact quote was this.

If you shoot the assailant in the head, we'll go to court for you, and we will inform the judge that you were only what law enforcement trained you to do in that situation

Am I evil?

This may be the anti-authoritarian streak in me but I would never allow two "state troopers" to usurp my morality with their protocols. People who just kill others without thought because they were instructed by "experts" that it's the right thing to do are either very weak-willed or are just using that fact as an excuse to abuse power.

Now, I have faith most people are good, so I'm sure if you were in that situation you'd make the biggest of efforts to keep people safe, and that you'd realize that once you took the gun away from the shooter that he can't shoot you with it any more, so he doesn't need to die. I'd also hope you'd realize that there's other people in the school, in other classrooms and in the halls, so there is a high probability you will accidentally shoot a lot of people who are not the shooter, since you're presumably not a sharpshooter and it will be a tense situation with nerves and adrenaline going, making your hands shake and so on. Stray bullets kill just as well as aimed ones.

You will prolly wanna watch him to make sure he isn't pulling out another gun but killing him at that point right after taking his gun seems pretty evil to me, not to mention dumb and reckless.

 

[stroopwafel]

Now, I have faith most people are good, so I'm sure if you were in that situation you'd make the biggest of efforts to keep people safe, and that you'd realize that once you took the gun away from the shooter that he can't shoot you with it any more, so he doesn't need to die.

Yeah, a response must be proportionate to the threat. If someone is shooting and an active threat than sure, I don't think anyone will argue the life of the shooter trumps that of his victims. When a shooter is disarmed and no longer an active threat than killing the shooter is just an execution at that point. Sure, you can argue the shooter deserved to die but that is not for law enforcement or some random joe to decide.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Now, I have faith most people are good, so I'm sure if you were in that situation you'd make the biggest of efforts to keep people safe, and that you'd realize that once you took the gun away from the shooter that he can't shoot you with it any more, so he doesn't need to die.

Yeah, a response must be proportionate to the threat. If someone is shooting and an active threat than sure, I don't think anyone will argue the life of the shooter trumps that of his victims. When a shooter is disarmed and no longer an active threat than killing the shooter is just an execution at that point. Sure, you can argue the shooter deserved to die but that is not for law enforcement or some random joe to decide.

Exactly, even the troopers didn't say that the act isn't evil, just that they'd defend it in court because presumably we need to be some amount of evil to survive in the current gun climate according to their training and assessment (definitely don't buy that personally, btw).

The question wasn't if it was justifiable even but whether it's evil or not. I think it's pretty simple when that's what you're asking.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

What?

I am sorry, but your reading comprehension is seriously failing. Nobody has said anything about someone not being "properly people", rather they're insisting that there is nothing that can make a person less than a person.

You're insisting that Dreiko believes trans people are lesser people when they have been explicit about it not being possible to be a lesser person in any way. Or you're insisting that calling someone delusional makes them a lesser person... or whatever. I honestly can't follow because you've made this illogical leap somewhere without following what has been said and arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

I'm mostly baffled.

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Dreiko is saying that if you need testosterone to feel like a man, you are not a man. So his logic is that if you need chemical assistance to feel like a thing, you are not a thing. So therefore it is true, by his reasoning, that if someone needs chemical assistance to feel like a person, they are not a person. I've explained this at least once in this topic dude, maybe try reading the whole thing rather than just jumping in when you think you have a gotcha to hand.

The fact that Dreiko finds this logic fine to use when applied to trans folk but not when applied to the mentally ill is somewhat telling, do you not think?

 

[Saelune]

I am just sick of people who are anti-LGBT being assholes about it. All you have to do is respect other people, thats it, its not as hard as anti-LGBT people make it seem. But its so much easier to get mad at people 'forcing you to call them zhir' than acknowledge the hypocrisy of forcing people to be called he or she when they dont identify that way.

If I called most anti-LGBT people the wrong gender, I bet they would get mad at me for misgendering them. Fuck off with that hypocritic bullshit.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

What?

I am sorry, but your reading comprehension is seriously failing. Nobody has said anything about someone not being "properly people", rather they're insisting that there is nothing that can make a person less than a person.

You're insisting that Dreiko believes trans people are lesser people when they have been explicit about it not being possible to be a lesser person in any way. Or you're insisting that calling someone delusional makes them a lesser person... or whatever. I honestly can't follow because you've made this illogical leap somewhere without following what has been said and arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

I'm mostly baffled.

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Dreiko is saying that if you need testosterone to feel like a man, you are not a man. So his logic is that if you need chemical assistance to feel like a thing, you are not a thing. So therefore it is true, by his reasoning, that if someone needs chemical assistance to feel like a person, they are not a person. I've explained this at least once in this topic dude, maybe try reading the whole thing rather than just jumping in when you think you have a gotcha to hand.

The fact that Dreiko finds this logic fine to use when applied to trans folk but not when applied to the mentally ill is somewhat telling, do you not think?

Hold hold hold hold. If you need testosterone to feel like a man it means without testosterone you don't feel like a man, making you a woman. What you're saying undermines the established notion of transgenderism being how you feel innately and that your body is just mismatched and implies that you do feel matched to your body but are somehow desiring for your body and feelings to be different, which is NOT just "naturally" being of one sex trapped in the wrong body.

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

Based on this and on my logic, if someone needs to take testosterone to feel like a man... the correct assessment isn't that they're less of a person but that they're not transgender, they're a woman who wishes she was transgender lol.


If I take LSD and think that I'm a butterfly while high, I am not a butterfly during that period, despite feeling that I am. If you need to take something to feel a certain way that by definition isn't what you are.

Finally, some things are a matter of how you feel about it, other things are a matter of actual facts. Personhood is determined by self-awareness and intelligence, not by the subject's feelings on the matter.

 

[Silvanus]

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

This just all seems so simplistic, so black-and-white. Do you never feel a certain way in some respects and not in others? I do all the time.

For something as complex as gender identity, it seems naive to apply this simplistic binary to it.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

This just all seems so simplistic, so black-and-white. Do you never feel a certain way in some respects and not in others? I do all the time.

For something as complex as gender identity, it seems naive to apply this simplistic binary to it.

Not with regards to foundational aspects that you take for granted to base split second decisions on. I've had long hair for literally all of my adult life so it's not like I'm some weird gender roles enthusiast or traditionalist or what have you. In fact, it's so black and white that I can feel self-confident not following these traditional norms because of how much I have never questioned the fact that I'm a guy lol.

I think trying to add this level of murkiness is fine as long as you don't also desire non-murky reception from others. If you're allowed to be murky about such factors, people's reaction should also be allowed to be as murky and not so very clearly delineated.

I'm fine saying I don't know what the hell something is, I just don't understand why we have to adjust society based on something so ill-defined. You first gotta figure yourself out before you expect others to adapt to you. Having a situation where whatever crazy thing someone says must be taken as gospel so people won't seem some form of phobic is not workable and that creates a lot of the friction we see.