What is wrong with Dark/Edgey?
- Thread starter DudeistBelieve
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Ok, there's nothing wrong with dark content if its done with a level of maturity beyond the juvenile (unless the whole idea is satirizing dark/edgy content). However the term "edgy" is so fucking juvenile to me because of the level of crap that has come out thats been deemed "edgy". It used to be that when I thought of edgy content, things like the comedy of George Carlin and Richard Pryor came to mind as an example. Nowadays its overused and shallow as shallow can be.
Even the idea of "mature" has become less mature than the term should mean. There's nothing wrong with juvenile content so long as its somewhat self-aware (Deadpool is a good example) or otherwise not uber-serious. However there are things that just try too damn hard to be dark/edgy/mature and it only exposes the holes in said content like a block of swiss cheese being used for target practice.
Even the idea of "mature" has become less mature than the term should mean. There's nothing wrong with juvenile content so long as its somewhat self-aware (Deadpool is a good example) or otherwise not uber-serious. However there are things that just try too damn hard to be dark/edgy/mature and it only exposes the holes in said content like a block of swiss cheese being used for target practice.
Ow, the edge.Ambient_Malice said:Good edgy:
Bad edgy:
I have another example.
Good (less edgy and more cool, but still fits.):
Horrible & Bad:
Capcom ended up making the same mistake twice, albeit, slightly worse. Similar to the PoP: Warrior Within, we got an installment to the franchise no one asked for. The reboot failed spectacularly in being fun or "edgey". The gameplay, while better than most Western action games, pales into comparison to 1, 3, & 4. Or most good Japanese character action games in general.
The story is a cliched, generic, capitalism is evil morals, with "witty" dialogue, and most unlikable characters. Ninja Theory said the old Dante was too much like a cartoon character and tried to make the new one more "realistic". Dumbasses, your version of Dante is a half-demon/half-angel, you couldn't make him anymore realistic if you tried. Not with that shitty dialogue. There is reason why your sorry ass reboot failed. And when you claim realism, it makes your story look all the more stupid and dumb.
To the original poster, a lot of people don't like too many things dark/edgey, because it all becomes trite, copied to death, and misunderstood into thinking that makes the story mature. You can have any story be "dark" as much you as you want, but if it feels forced, unnecessary, or if the characters, plot, etc. is written badly, then your in a big trouble, because a majority of the audience ain't havin it. Too much of it makes games, books, or movies all one bland muck.
Remember what happened to the comic-book industry in the 90s? There was a reason why there was such a huge market crash. Generation 7 of the video games industry faced similar issues, but at least its getting out of it a bit. There are least some people that remember that not all games have to be dog shit brown, gun-metal grey, or COD style "realistic" to be good.
Dark and edgy is good when it's done well, but it rarely is.
I feel like there's a dead zone in grimdark. Not enough grimdark is okay, but after a certain point it just comes across as juvenile until you go WAY past to the other side. Like, to the point where your story involves killing off it cast one by one or something at about that level. If you're going to play at the world being shit, make the world shit.
I feel like there's a dead zone in grimdark. Not enough grimdark is okay, but after a certain point it just comes across as juvenile until you go WAY past to the other side. Like, to the point where your story involves killing off it cast one by one or something at about that level. If you're going to play at the world being shit, make the world shit.
You know, I don't necessarily think of the two as the same thing, while they're typically close together, you can definitely have one without the other.
For clarity, I see dark really as a tone, The Dark Knight is dark (hah) but I personally wouldn't call it edgy. As for "edgy" I simply look at it like an... I'm gonna use the word "aesthetic"... thing, I honestly think of punk rock whenever somebody says "edgy". the newest DMC is edgy, I wouldn't call it all that dark at least not compared to most other things.
Anyway.
I'm with you, I personally have nothin' against it as long as it's applied properly. I typically like "dark" more than "edgy" but can still appreciate "edgy" when I see it used right.
For clarity, I see dark really as a tone, The Dark Knight is dark (hah) but I personally wouldn't call it edgy. As for "edgy" I simply look at it like an... I'm gonna use the word "aesthetic"... thing, I honestly think of punk rock whenever somebody says "edgy". the newest DMC is edgy, I wouldn't call it all that dark at least not compared to most other things.
Anyway.
I'm with you, I personally have nothin' against it as long as it's applied properly. I typically like "dark" more than "edgy" but can still appreciate "edgy" when I see it used right.
He felt bad about it because he killed someone with his bare hands and he didn't want to! Wasn't it obvious? You can't criticize one instance where Superman feels bad about killing someone then praise another scene where he kills people and feels bad about it. Fans have no right to be pissed off at him killing someone when he's killed at least a dozen times before WITHOUT feeling bad about it.MarsAtlas said:
Dark and edgy is fine. But it needs a point. It needs substance. And it needs to be counterbalanced with some light. Dark means nothing if we don't know what light is. Sadness and brooding is meaningless if you never experience happiness. That is the problem I have with some "dark and edgy" media.
Take Berserk. That series is as dark and edgy as it comes. Guts suffers through Hell. Literally. Rape, murder, mass death, torture, you name it and the series probably has it. But it works. It works because we see what Guts lost because he builds friendships with the Band of the Hawk, Casca, and Griffith. So when it all gets crushed leaving Casca little more than a broken shell of her former self, it means something.
That's the difference. Quality of the story telling.
Take Berserk. That series is as dark and edgy as it comes. Guts suffers through Hell. Literally. Rape, murder, mass death, torture, you name it and the series probably has it. But it works. It works because we see what Guts lost because he builds friendships with the Band of the Hawk, Casca, and Griffith. So when it all gets crushed leaving Casca little more than a broken shell of her former self, it means something.
That's the difference. Quality of the story telling.
Because the writing is usually really shitty and characters can feel ridiculously up their own asses. If it feels like a character could have the best life in the whole world and they'd still be a depressive dick then that's not dark or edgy, that's just shitty writing. If there's no motivation or logical explanation behind it, it just feels bad, like 90% of anime bad.
Also it can just be easy to default to if you lack imagination. I'm reminded of the Mass Effect series, where 1 felt wholly original and creatively done, 2 felt like the same trudge down grit lane that I'd taken approximately 16 billion times before.
Also it can just be easy to default to if you lack imagination. I'm reminded of the Mass Effect series, where 1 felt wholly original and creatively done, 2 felt like the same trudge down grit lane that I'd taken approximately 16 billion times before.
Well...
Nothing inherently wrong with Dark and Edgy. You just don't want a steady diet of it. Diminishing returns, if nothing else. You start waiting for the underdeveloped nice guy to betray everyone, the hammer to come down because we had one brief moment of sunshine, the sweet and innocent person to become the biggest dick of all.
But mostly, you get a cloud of D&E when something D&E is successful, often without any consideration as to why a particular piece was made D&E in the first place or why that piece was successful (which may or may not have actually had anything to do with it being Dark and Edgy.)
When Tim Burton's Batman came out, it was kind of revolutionary, both after the Adam West Batman and the Christopher Reeve Superman. But then we briefly had a Flash live-action TV show that was trying to be that Batman. Right down to the "let's make the hero's icon in front of the moon" moment. It was sad.
(For all its faults, I really appreciate the more recent Flash TV show for not trying to be Batman. Or Green Arrow, for that matter.)
We've had a Dark and Edgy Sonic the Hedgehog, and a Dark and Edgy Bomberman, and a Dark and Edgy Bugs Bunny, for #$%@'s sake. If you're going to do Dark and Edgy, have something you want to say, or at least a reason; don't just be trying to re-invigorate your brand or pretend you're an iconoclast.
Nothing inherently wrong with Dark and Edgy. You just don't want a steady diet of it. Diminishing returns, if nothing else. You start waiting for the underdeveloped nice guy to betray everyone, the hammer to come down because we had one brief moment of sunshine, the sweet and innocent person to become the biggest dick of all.
But mostly, you get a cloud of D&E when something D&E is successful, often without any consideration as to why a particular piece was made D&E in the first place or why that piece was successful (which may or may not have actually had anything to do with it being Dark and Edgy.)
When Tim Burton's Batman came out, it was kind of revolutionary, both after the Adam West Batman and the Christopher Reeve Superman. But then we briefly had a Flash live-action TV show that was trying to be that Batman. Right down to the "let's make the hero's icon in front of the moon" moment. It was sad.
(For all its faults, I really appreciate the more recent Flash TV show for not trying to be Batman. Or Green Arrow, for that matter.)
We've had a Dark and Edgy Sonic the Hedgehog, and a Dark and Edgy Bomberman, and a Dark and Edgy Bugs Bunny, for #$%@'s sake. If you're going to do Dark and Edgy, have something you want to say, or at least a reason; don't just be trying to re-invigorate your brand or pretend you're an iconoclast.
How long ago did this take place in the comics, out of interest? The characters of Superman and Batman have developed a great deal since the older-age incarnations, and the more recent ones are more definitive with pretty good reason.MarsAtlas said:
...really love the idea of Ryuko being the maximum amount of Edge a character can be before backlash sets in.crimson5pheonix said:Dark and edgy is good when it's done well, but it rarely is.
I feel like there's a dead zone in grimdark. Not enough grimdark is okay, but after a certain point it just comes across as juvenile until you go WAY past to the other side. Like, to the point where your story involves killing off it cast one by one or something at about that level. If you're going to play at the world being shit, make the world shit.
The reason people rail on "dark and edgy" stuff isn't because that style is inherently bad, it's just a lot harder to pull off effectively. In a light and fun film you can overlook a bit of dodgy plotting or awkward writing because it still ultimately makes you feel good and you identify with the characters much more readily. Dark and edgy films don't have this safety net so when they fuck up they suffer hard for it.
You really need to earn your label of "Dark and edgy" by actually having something subversive or different to say or show their audience. Something like "Watchmen" really needs to be dark and edgy in order to properly pull off its deconstruction. Stripping away all the crowd-pleasing, uplifting conventions that we generally expect in entertainment is only worth doing if you replace it with something worthwhile. It's like the indie games that proudly declare themselves to be "non-combat" but don't replace combat with a similarly engaging gameplay mechanic.
Otherwise it just comes off as pretentious when writers/ directors/ game developers cloak their work in the superficial parts of previous successful dark and edgy stuff (limited colour palate, nihilistic/ miserable characters, hopelessness and violence) in just the same way that superficially "arty" work tends to.
The inherently subversive nature of edginess leaves it very vulnerable to people being fatigued to it when it becomes too common, not so much with darkness though so maybe it's the edginess that's the real problem. 300 (the film anyway) for example is kind of dark without being edgy, it's fun, ridiculous and camp as fuck and many horror films are dark, gory and violent without any edgy pretentious.
You really need to earn your label of "Dark and edgy" by actually having something subversive or different to say or show their audience. Something like "Watchmen" really needs to be dark and edgy in order to properly pull off its deconstruction. Stripping away all the crowd-pleasing, uplifting conventions that we generally expect in entertainment is only worth doing if you replace it with something worthwhile. It's like the indie games that proudly declare themselves to be "non-combat" but don't replace combat with a similarly engaging gameplay mechanic.
Otherwise it just comes off as pretentious when writers/ directors/ game developers cloak their work in the superficial parts of previous successful dark and edgy stuff (limited colour palate, nihilistic/ miserable characters, hopelessness and violence) in just the same way that superficially "arty" work tends to.
The inherently subversive nature of edginess leaves it very vulnerable to people being fatigued to it when it becomes too common, not so much with darkness though so maybe it's the edginess that's the real problem. 300 (the film anyway) for example is kind of dark without being edgy, it's fun, ridiculous and camp as fuck and many horror films are dark, gory and violent without any edgy pretentious.
Dark, edgy, grimdark, it can be done well. I was a teenager in the 90's... I likes me some grimdark.
However...
Quality is important. And at some point, when "dark and edgy" became popular with young people a lesson was learned. As opposed to "wow, people like that really well written and compelling dark story" the idea that "teens eat that dark crap up because they think 'dark and edgy' equals 'mature'. And they are dying to look more mature."
And for the most part, it's true. Lots of teens (and those permanently on that level) will equate grimdark with mature... and will defend "dark and edgy" stuff with the emo and goth moron responses of "you just don't get it" (implying it's over other's heads) "you just like kiddy stuff" (implying it's too mature for others) and similar idiotic responses.
Most grow out of that nonsense eventually. I did.
So yes, grimdark can make for really good entertainment whether in book, tv, movie, or video game form. But most of it is emo pandering crap.
However...
Quality is important. And at some point, when "dark and edgy" became popular with young people a lesson was learned. As opposed to "wow, people like that really well written and compelling dark story" the idea that "teens eat that dark crap up because they think 'dark and edgy' equals 'mature'. And they are dying to look more mature."
And for the most part, it's true. Lots of teens (and those permanently on that level) will equate grimdark with mature... and will defend "dark and edgy" stuff with the emo and goth moron responses of "you just don't get it" (implying it's over other's heads) "you just like kiddy stuff" (implying it's too mature for others) and similar idiotic responses.
Most grow out of that nonsense eventually. I did.
So yes, grimdark can make for really good entertainment whether in book, tv, movie, or video game form. But most of it is emo pandering crap.
Dark and Edgy are just buzzword, used to sell a concept they haven't really earned. Most try to be dark and edgy by showing adult content with no reason but itself: "look at all these tits and blood, surely a kid wouldn't be allowed to see this. Aren't we mature?". Being edgy is not even about being "more mature" in content, is about having a subversive point to make about your content. You can even be edgy without being dark.
This was not edgy:
This was edgy:
This was not edgy:
This was edgy:
This was not edgy:
This was not edgy:
When done well, dark and edgy can be enjoyable on some level. For instance, I love the settings of the World of Darkness and Shadowrun tabletop games... even if they are a bit dark and depressing.
On the other hand, settings where nothing ever good happens, like Warhammer 40k, for example, I prefer to avoid. Or stories that use sex and gore to appear "mature" to pander to the "Darker and edgier crowd". Example, DC's New 52 line.
Personally though, I prefer more lightheart works, or works that aren't completely dark. Like for instance, Puella Magi Madoka Magica.
...Yeah, I have weird tastes.
On the other hand, settings where nothing ever good happens, like Warhammer 40k, for example, I prefer to avoid. Or stories that use sex and gore to appear "mature" to pander to the "Darker and edgier crowd". Example, DC's New 52 line.
Personally though, I prefer more lightheart works, or works that aren't completely dark. Like for instance, Puella Magi Madoka Magica.
...Yeah, I have weird tastes.