What Makes A Character Considered "Grey" In Terms of Morality?

[McElroy]

I would find Thanos less aweful if maybe he went world to world playing 'Judge' and actually figuring out which half of the world deserves death. It is senseless to just randomly kill off half of every world and expect it to work out. Atleast be some form of pragmatic about it, let people who can help the world revocer over those who would persist as a burden to that world.

Going by universal morality, nobody wants to be on the dying side and thus it's just as moral or immoral to kill randomly.

Anyway, the goal as presented in the movie is senseless. So by all means Thanos should get his true motivations revealed in the sequel.

Spoiler

He covets the favor of Mistress Death.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

Speaking broadly, I define a grey character as either someone who wants something good but does bad things to achieve it, or wants something bad but for good/sympathetic reasons, or who doesn't use evil methods to achieve it.

 

[BrawlMan]

Shows or Movies that do it right:

Scar - Both versions of Fullmetal Alchemist.

Integra and Anderson - Hellsing

Zuko - Avatar: Last Airbender

Vergil - DMC3. Not that crappy OC from the reboot.

Driver - Drive

Evil Within 2 - Hoffman, Juli Kidman, Myra, O Niel, and Sykes.

Most Gundam shows in general, but some fail at it or fuck it up.

Shows or Movies that fuck it up:

Mai - Avatar Last Airbender. This one, you more so have to read the comics that take place after Season 3. But yeah, taking a character that most people thought was okay and making her a protagonist was not a good idea. Taking her screwed up actions and trying to spin them in a positive light made me hate this character. The only way Mai and Zuko would work as a couple is if you ignored the comics entirely and only watched the show.

Elfen Lied - Lucy or almost any character diclonus or human. Especially the dicloni.

Amanda Waller/CADMUS - Fuck this character and this organization. This is more so the Justice League (DCAU), but fuck Waller in general. The only thing she does helps benefit her or people in similar positions. As much she claims to save the world or America through dirty methods, Waller has no problem sacrificing others, regardless whether they're in her way or not. She is just another ***** in a box stand.

Legend of Korra - All of the seasons screwed this up, no matter what; even with Kuvira.

Shaman King (manga only) - Fuck Hao Asakura even harder. I'm glad the TV version did not suffer from this, and painted Hao as the villain he actually is.

EDIT: Kilmonger and Thanos have a point (more so the former), they just take things way too far or their end game plans are impractical or too selfish. Though I have more sympathy for Kilmonger by comparison.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Moral greyness doesn't really exist, it's just something evil people use to avoid admitting theyre truly evil.

Thanos has the ultimate power of the universe, and instead of using it to make more planets or infinite resources, he kills half of everyone. He's not only evil, hes stupid and the whole "save people from themselves" is just a weak excuse.

Same with Killmonger. His plan was to overthrow the world, install a brutal monarchy, and kill the children of anyone who resisted. Hes just a hotter, black version of Emperor Palpatine.

I am reminded here, that I mainly used Killmonger as an example due to both being MCU villains and being so close together in releases. There are grayer villains to choose from than Killmonger.

I maintain there is no such thing as a gray villain. First off by dint of being a villain, they must be villainous. Second the term morally gray is used by villains to avoid having to come out as straight evil. Being evil is irrational, in that people take actions that they think are for the best, even if someone else disagrees.

Common example, the Nazis. They truly thought they were on the right side of history. They were not walking around going 'Proud to be Evil! Hans, lets go do evil things!' they were going around legitimately thinking killing Jews was doing the world a favor.
No one is openly doing what they know is evil simply because its evil. We call those people crazy, and even then crazy people really do think killing everyone at subway because their cat told them to is the right thing.

No one is morally gray, they're simply closeted evil in denial.

 

[Saelune]

The antagonist of Black Panther, by the way, was named Kilmonger, not Kilgrave. Kilgrave, Wikipedia tells me, is a villain from Jessica Jones. Though I don't blame anyone for confusing them, seeing how everything Marvel Studios makes is pretty much the same.

...Yes. I just remembered 'Kill...something...' and grave popped up. Also, I did eventually say Killmonger, but like...not because I realized I used the wrong name. =. =;;

 

[Saelune]

I would find Thanos less aweful if maybe he went world to world playing 'Judge' and actually figuring out which half of the world deserves death. It is senseless to just randomly kill off half of every world and expect it to work out. Atleast be some form of pragmatic about it, let people who can help the world revocer over those who would persist as a burden to that world.

Going by universal morality, nobody wants to be on the dying side and thus it's just as moral or immoral to kill randomly.

Anyway, the goal as presented in the movie is senseless. So by all means Thanos should get his true motivations revealed in the sequel.

Spoiler

He covets the favor of Mistress Death.

It would certainly make him unquestionably unjustified. Though I honestly do not know if that will come up or not.

 

[Saelune]

Moral greyness doesn't really exist, it's just something evil people use to avoid admitting theyre truly evil.

Thanos has the ultimate power of the universe, and instead of using it to make more planets or infinite resources, he kills half of everyone. He's not only evil, hes stupid and the whole "save people from themselves" is just a weak excuse.

Same with Killmonger. His plan was to overthrow the world, install a brutal monarchy, and kill the children of anyone who resisted. Hes just a hotter, black version of Emperor Palpatine.

I am reminded here, that I mainly used Killmonger as an example due to both being MCU villains and being so close together in releases. There are grayer villains to choose from than Killmonger.

I maintain there is no such thing as a gray villain. First off by dint of being a villain, they must be villainous. Second the term morally gray is used by villains to avoid having to come out as straight evil. Being evil is irrational, in that people take actions that they think are for the best, even if someone else disagrees.

Common example, the Nazis. They truly thought they were on the right side of history. They were not walking around going 'Proud to be Evil! Hans, lets go do evil things!' they were going around legitimately thinking killing Jews was doing the world a favor.
No one is openly doing what they know is evil simply because its evil. We call those people crazy, and even then crazy people really do think killing everyone at subway because their cat told them to is the right thing.

No one is morally gray, they're simply closeted evil in denial.

Well, in a perfect world, killing would always be wrong, but there are some really bad people and killing them is justified. I dont feel bad for a single Nazi killed, but it was not the ideal solution. But ofcourse the ideal solution would be to somehow convince the world that bigotry is bad...and woo boy that has not gotten easier it seems.

Now, as for your suggestion that there is no such thing as a gray villain, then I think we have to go into a more 'literary' debate than moral one, but I honestly don't feel like it.

 

[CyanCat47_v1legacy]

Shows or Movies that do it right:

Scar - Both versions of Fullmetal Alchemist.

Integra and Anderson - Hellsing

Zuko - Avatar: Last Airbender

Vergil - DMC3. Not that crappy OC from the reboot.

Driver - Drive

Evil Within 2 - Hoffman, Juli Kidman, Myra, O Niel, and Sykes.

Most Gundam shows in general, but some fail at it or fuck it up.

Shows or Movies that fuck it up:

Mai - Avatar Last Airbender. This one, you more so have to read the comics that take place after Season 3. But yeah, taking a character that most people thought was okay and making her a protagonist was not a good idea. Taking her screwed up actions and trying to spin them in a positive light made me hate this character. The only way Mai and Zuko would work as a couple is if you ignored the comics entirely and only watched the show.

Elfen Lied - Lucy or almost any character diclonus or human. Especially the dicloni.

Amanda Waller/CADMUS - Fuck this character and this organization. This more so the Justice League (DCAU), but fuck Waller in general. The only thing she does helps benefit her or people in similar positions. As much she claims to save the world or America through dirty methods, Waller has no problem sacrificing others regardless whether they're in her way pr not. She is just another ***** in a box stand.

Legend of Korra - All of the seasons screwed this up, no matter what. Even with Kuvira.

Shaman King (manga only) - Fuck Hao Asakura even harder. I'm glad the TV version did not suffer from this, and painted Hao as the villain he actually is.

Kilmonger and Thanos have a point (more so the latter), they just take things way too far or their end game plans are impractical or too selfish. Though have more sympathy for the latter by comparison.

I was going to use Sasuke Uchiha as my example but there really is no more fitting example of a potentially grey character that got royally fucked as a result of his goals and methods constantly changed, and os using him to explain morally grey characters would be counterproductive. This is a good list though, better than i could have come up with myself.

 

[BrawlMan]

I was going to use Sasuke Uchiha as my example but there really is no more fitting example of a potentially grey character that got royally fucked as a result of his goals and methods constantly changed, and os using him to explain morally grey characters would be counterproductive. This is a good list though, better than i could have come up with myself.

Thanks dude.

Sasuke Uchiha is one of the worst written in characters in all genres of anime/manga. Never liked him than, never liked him on. He's a worse version of Vegeta and Hiei. And Vegeta I'm not exactly a big fan to begin with. Not to mention, Sasuke's backstory was already done better with Vash the Stampede. The only other difference is Vash did not become an emo punk *****.

 

[Megalodon]

Well, in a perfect world, killing would always be wrong, but there are some really bad people and killing them is justified. I dont feel bad for a single Nazi killed, but it was not the ideal solution. But ofcourse the ideal solution would be to somehow convince the world that bigotry is bad...and woo boy that has not gotten easier it seems.

How do you square this with the assertion that Killmonger was morally grey with ideas that 'aren't so bad'? Isn't he a bigoted racist whose primary goal was conquest and annexation of those he viewed as 'lesser'? He seems pretty 'Nazi-esque'.

As for real 'morally grey', it's pretty hard, because someone will inevitably dispute every example you bring up. But personally, a story needs to be somewhat 'grounded' for this kind of moral nuance to ring true. A good 'grey villain' should invoke some level of empathy from the audience, despite their villainy, because there's a clearly understandable and empathetic reason for their actions. Stuff like the Marvel films (haven't seen Infinity War) end up too outlandish/cartoonish, although better versions of Magneto come close (especially in First Class). It's also hard because villains have to be villainous, so too often a 'grey' villain is just a regular villain with a more detailed/sympathetic backstory. So often your 'grey' characters are more often 'protagonist with dark side' than 'antagonist with a point'. For example, Anakin Skywalker has a sympathetic 'start of darkness', he fears for the safety of those he loves, and is stuck in a weird, emotion suppressing cult that just ignores his issues and emotions. Yet he isn't really a 'grey' character, because he goes from 'fear for my wife's safety' to 'murder children? of course', which is such on obviously evil overreaction it destroys any nuance (which in the case of Anakin, was probably the point).

One that works quite well imo are the bandits in The Magnificent Seven (the old one, not the recent remake, that had a straight up evil villain), and potentially The Seven Samurai (don't know, haven't seen). Yes the bandits are attempting to extort/rob the farmers, but ultimately it's due to their own pending starvation, rather than criminal greed. Their only choices, by the time of the film at least, are 'do bad thing' or 'lie down and die'. So naturally, they go forward with the bad thing, it's tragic, but also very human. It helps lend the film an air of pathos (along with the very sombre ending), that the remake just could not come close to.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Ususlly someone who by word or deed conflicts with the established (or assumed) ethoses of their world.

 

[Majestic Manatee_v1legacy]

A character who only thinks marmite is "alright"

 

[Tanis]

Those that walk between the candle and the star, that stand between the darkness and the light.