What Makes A Difficult Game Good Or Bad?

[KissingSunlight]

I have a coworker who have been raving about how great the Dark Souls series is. Usually, I avoid difficult games. Those games are annoying about how they are difficult. The biggest flaw that they have is being too exacting.

I'll share a list of other annoying traits of difficult videogames later. (I don't want to ninja anybody in the first post.) What are different things that makes a difficult video game good or bad?

Please tell me you can pause Dark Souls games. I couldn't believe that Demon's Souls did not have that.

 

[tippy2k2]

Is it fair difficulty or is it bullshit difficulty? Fair difficulty is good and bullshit difficulty is bad.

That's the biggest issue I have with people who ***** about how much easier games have gotten is that they tend to forget that most of those brutally hard games in the NES generation were bullshit difficult. Generally, you were killed a lot by things that you had no real chance to defeat. Whether it was stuff flying at you from off screen or the game expected such precision and reflexes that you basically needed to memorize each level to defeat it, it is hard because it's so unlikely that a person can react quick enough.

Good difficulty can still be incredibly punishing but in general, if a game is getting difficulty right, I'm cursing myself rather than the game. I made a mistake and that mistake cost me. I hurried my attack or bit off more than I could chew and had I acted differently, I would have had a chance to be victorious instead of staring at a Game Over screen.

 

[Glongpre]

What Tippy said.

For me, good difficulty allows you to evade every attack if you are good enough.
While bullshit difficulty lets you think you can, but has homing missiles on attacks, or unblockables, or has no balance...for lack of a better word.

Good:
Ninja Gaiden Black -
You can dodge everything, and it pretty much comes down to how much time you have put in, how skilled you are.
God of War -
I found the first one was really good for this even on God mode. You can evade and block pretty much everything, all you need is the game knowledge, the skill to time it right.

Iffy:
Dark Souls -
I played it for a bit, never beat it mind you, but the difficulty was so-so for me. Definitely playing more will make you better, and enemies have recognizable patterns. Buuuuuuttttt, what really bugs me is super homing attacks cough Havel cough. Other than him, it seemed pretty well balanced, I just haven't played it enough to judge.

Bad:
Ninja Gaiden 2 -
Hey how do you like these rocket spammers? How bout these incendiary shuriken spammers? How bout these unblockables? How bout these enemies who cling to you and throw 8 hit combos that break your guard, and follow as you roll........ugh
Fighting game AI -
Hey you jumped, AI will either A) jump attack you first B) anti air you instantly C) take the hit then throw you D) Some other bullshit

I guess the big ones to determine how good difficulty are:
1) Recognizable patterns
2) The game equips you with ample ways to avoid damage
3) Doesn't overwhelm you with bullshit (attacks, numbers, etc)cough Ares GoW 1 second phase cough

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

You can't pause in Dark Souls. You can't pause in any of those games, because they're technically always online to allow for invasions and the creation of useless messages. One of several things that turned me off of it.

There are other things in a difficult game that can make it good or bad, but factors pertaining to 'good' or 'bad' difficulty would include:
1) A variety of combat options and clear choices.
2) Clearly-outlined enemy attack ranges or how exactly one died.
3) Good checkpointing or other considerations taken to minimize flow breaking or time penalty.

A lack of these can make a game bad kind of difficult. I don't play enough bad difficulty games to have many choices that I know well (and I'd rather not speak any more of Souls games and risk further verbal evisceration), so I'd say the last game I considered to have bullshit difficulty would be Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume, so much so that it was the deciding factor in my quitting it (liked the story and graphics, but that difficulty curve). To whit:

1) All deaths are permanent and enemies hit very hard. Sure, Fire Emblem got famous for this, but its missions are much shorter and it gave you dozens of characters instead of a mere handful, including some characters designed to be tanks.
2) A requirement for every mission is achieve a certain average level of overkill on your enemies. This is difficult to calculate since criticals and special skills activate at random. You CAN proceed with insufficient Overkill, but the penalty is to face an nearly unbeatable wraith enemy in the next mission.
3) Nearly every chapter has an escort mission with some of the most suicidal AI ever. Anyone else remember Rafa in Final Fantasy Tactics? These people are a bit stronger usually, but just as stupid.
4) You can't grind.

 

[Evonisia]

And why would you ever need pause in a Dark Souls game? It won't net you anything. Or you mean the Skyrim-pause, where you can eat cakes and pies and change a whole bunch of outfits midfight?

Why not add a pause button that just pauses the game? You can't be expected to be able to put your full attention towards any game 100% of the time. There are many distractions that might require your attention for more than just a glance - not that the Soulsborne games care.

I get the case for when you're online as most online games won't let you pause, but there's not a pause button in offline play either so clearly its a design choice for the overrall game.

 

[Kotaro]

Is it fair difficulty or is it bullshit difficulty? Fair difficulty is good and bullshit difficulty is bad.

This. For me, it mostly comes down to which of the following categories that it falls into:
1. It's hard, but I am having fun.
2. It's hard, and I am frustrated.

Why not add a pause button that just pauses the game?

This too. Generally, if I can't pause a game because I need to use the bathroom or something, I will just stop playing the game right there. The only exception--the ONLY exception--is for online multiplayer. And only if I am currently participating in said online multiplayer.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Please tell me you can pause Dark Souls games. I couldn't believe that Demon's Souls did not have that.

You can't. I guess because you're "meant" to be online when playing.

 

[someguy1231]

Good: I blame myself when I die.

Bad: I blame the game when I die.

 

[Broderick]

Generally the design of the game and how it handles difficulty. For an example of a bad difficult game, let's talk Battle Toads. Terrible enemy placement, glitches and bugs out the wazoo, and a terrible life system left over from the arcade days(unfortunately they screw that a bit as well). Also the bike level had some really bad depth of field issues.

Good design, Dark Souls. Very deliberate and careful placement of enemies. All enemies have a wind up and cool down with their attacks, with the easier enemies generally being slow, to help ease you in. Death system allows you to learn from your mistakes and is hardly more than a slap on the wrist unless you are in a particularly grueling area, or lose a lot of souls. Tons of weapons available at the start, so you are able to experiment with different weapon types on easy enemies before going into the game proper.

I am of two minds about pausing in Dark Souls. On one hand, I understand people need to go take a pee or something, and if they are offline, its not like you can be invaded. On the other, I think it was a deliberate move to help with the atmosphere of the game, so you constantly felt on edge a bit; that the only safe place was a bonfire or quitting the game. So...take it as you will. Frankly, just quitting the game has the same effect as pausing. The games autosave system is fantastic too, so you will pretty much always end up where you were before(if you were fighting a boss, you end up outside the boss area, resetting the fight).

 

[JCAll]

3) Nearly every chapter has an escort mission with some of the most suicidal AI ever. Anyone else remember Rafa in Final Fantasy Tactics?

I always assumed that was intentional. She had every reason in the world to want to die at that point.

 

[KissingSunlight]

And why would you ever need pause in a Dark Souls game? It won't net you anything. Or you mean the Skyrim-pause, where you can eat cakes and pies and change a whole bunch of outfits midfight?

Why not add a pause button that just pauses the game? You can't be expected to be able to put your full attention towards any game 100% of the time. There are many distractions that might require your attention for more than just a glance - not that the Soulsborne games care.

I get the case for when you're online as most online games won't let you pause, but there's not a pause button in offline play either so clearly its a design choice for the overrall game.

Because you don't need it. Granted, when you're in a fight, you have to finish it first, but otherwise, you don't really need pause.
And if you afraid of dying because there's no pause... You'd die anyway. Just accept it.

I never really had a problem with Souls being impausible (no pun), because it literally saves constantly anyways. You can just quit the game from menu and pick up right where you were later if you have to go do something else. The only flaw is during invasions, where that option is disabled.

Having said that, considering the susceptibility to spammers and hacks that PVP and online gaming in general has though, I always thought the games should've at least had an in-game item that you could acquire - perhaps after beating the prologue boss, or at Firelink, etc. - to ward against invaders whenever you want, even when playing online. Shouldn't have to play offline completely.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

I have a coworker who have been raving about how great the Dark Souls series is. Usually, I avoid difficult games. Those games are annoying about how they are difficult. The biggest flaw that they have is being too exacting.

I'll share a list of other annoying traits of difficult videogames later. (I don't want to ninja anybody in the first post.) What are different things that makes a difficult video game good or bad?

Please tell me you can pause Dark Souls games. I couldn't believe that Demon's Souls did not have that.

And why would you ever need pause in a Dark Souls game? It won't net you anything. Or you mean the Skyrim-pause, where you can eat cakes and pies and change a whole bunch of outfits midfight?

Why not add a pause button that just pauses the game? You can't be expected to be able to put your full attention towards any game 100% of the time. There are many distractions that might require your attention for more than just a glance - not that the Soulsborne games care.

I get the case for when you're online as most online games won't let you pause, but there's not a pause button in offline play either so clearly its a design choice for the overrall game.

If you need to pause, save and quit. You'll be standing exactly where you were when you quit out thanks to the save system.

Or find a safe spot to hide out and just stand there.

You can actually pause the game by sitting at a bonfire. You are totally safe there.

 

[Zhukov]

Bad hard games waste my time, good ones do not. For example, a big no-no is putting unskippable cutscenes in front of hard boss fights so I have to rewatch them after each death. I remember The Witcher 2 did this. Absolutely terrible design. Dark Souls does something similar by putting distance and a bunch of regular enemies between each boss fight and the nearest checkpoint. Super Meat Boy and Hotline Miami do it right, they have frequent checkpoints and they get you back into the action in just a few seconds.

Bad hard games cause you to fail in ways you could not reasonably predict, good ones do not. I Wanna Be The Guy is the textbook example of this, although that game is intentionally designed to be utter bullshit. Dark Souls is generally pretty good about this but still does it occasionally with things like mimic chests.

Good hard games have tight controls and a well behaved camera. So when you fail it's because you did something wrong rather than the controls being fiddly or the camera blinding you with a face full of wall textures. Super Meat Boy is a good example, although I suppose it's pretty hard to fuck up the camera for a 2D platformer. Dark Souls is so-so on this front. The movement controls are clumsy and imprecise which generally isn't a huge problem except when they decide to make you do tightrope walks under duress. The controls are so clumsy that they need a lock-on system to compensate which will occasionally screw you over when fighting large enemies. The game is not above forcing you to fight in confined spaces, causing the camera to have a fit.

I've actually come to somewhat like Dark Souls over time, but the notion that it's perfectly designed and above a bit of bullshit is a myth.

 

[Zhukov]

Of course, there's also the incredibly obvious tactic of just hitting the damn thing and seeing if it reacts. Really if you're caught off guard opening a mimic after the first time you find one, then it's pretty much entirely your fault.

Yeah, no shit.

It's the first time that's the problem.

You see an object essentially identical to objects you've seen before that have been established as harmless and rewarding (Yes, I know about the chain. Players can't be reasonably expected to notice that the first time.) Except this one insta-kills you.

That is what is known as bullshit.

 

[skywolfblue]

Good: I blame myself when I die.

Bad: I blame the game when I die.

That in a nutshell.

Good games will give you hope and ideas on how to improve. Bad games will just say "tough luck" without coaching.

 

[Zhukov]

Not really. All of the messages saying "mimicry ahead" and the bloodstain phantoms that die when they open the box should be giving you an idea that this isn't a normal box you're dealing with.

Neither of those things are guaranteed to show up. And of course they won't show up at all if you're playing offline.

There were none around when I ran into my first mimic chest in Sen's Fortress.

So still bullshit. Buuuuulll...shit.

EDIT: I dont think it's any different to dying to a new enemy or boss because you don't know it's moveset well enough yet.

If there were enemies that insta-killed you with an unblockable, undodgable attack that you had no way to see coming then those enemies would be bullshit too.

 

[Broderick]

Not really. All of the messages saying "mimicry ahead" and the bloodstain phantoms that die when they open the box should be giving you an idea that this isn't a normal box you're dealing with.

Neither of those things are guaranteed to show up. And of course they won't show up at all if you're playing offline.

There were none around when I ran into my first mimic chest in Sen's Fortress.

So still bullshit. Buuuuulllshiiiit.

EDIT: I dont think it's any different to dying to a new enemy or boss because you don't know it's moveset well enough yet.

If there were enemies that insta-killed you with an unblockable, undodgable attack that you had no way to see coming then those enemies would be bullshit too.

Im unsure. I feel as if the Mimic in sen's fortress is actually pretty vocal about it's danger, without even attacking it or opening it. First and foremost, you are in an area FILLED with traps, that should already put you on edge. Secondly the position of the chest, its in the middle of the room, at an angle. I dont believe there is a single chest in the game up to that point that is positioned like that; most are up against a wall. Thirdly, regular chests have chains that curve around towards the back of the chest, mimics have chains that point out forward in a line(that one is admittedly, hard to notice if you arnt looking for it). Lastly, if you wait a bit, you can actually see the chest "breathing", as it will slowly open and close it's "mouth" every 5 seconds or so.

So I feel as long as a person went in there cautiously, and waited for more than 2 seconds to open the thing, they might come to the conclusion that it is pretty suspicious. Granted, most players would probably still open it on a first time through, but the warning signs are there.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well it comes down to your preference in cases like DS, some people really love the way it works and others will take issue with it.
And it is one issue that keeps me from ever finishing a Souls game, the repetition, if I am sent back to redo 5-15 min sections every single damn time I stub my toe and levels resetting every time you rest that inevitably leads to my disinterest. If shit looks like all progress goes nowhere then I'm out.

 

[Zhukov]

Im unsure. I feel as if the Mimic in sen's fortress is actually pretty vocal about it's danger, without even attacking it or opening it. First and foremost, you are in an area FILLED with traps, that should already put you on edge.

"There are traps in this area, therefore I should not interact with an object that has been previously established to be harmless and rewarding."

Does that really strike you as a chain of logic to reasonably expect from players?

Might as place a bonfire that kills you when you try and light it. Because traps.

All the other traps are visibly dangerous (swinging blades, rolling boulders) or give you a chance to dodge or block (arrow traps).

Secondly the position of the chest, its in the middle of the room, at an angle. I don't believe there is a single chest in the game up to that point that is positioned like that; most are up against a wall.

False.

There's one in Darkroot Garden that's sitting in the middle of a pond.

That's just off the top of my head.

Thirdly, regular chests have chains that curve around towards the back of the chest, mimics have chains that point out forward in a line(that one is admittedly, hard to notice if you arnt looking for it).

You just countered your own point.

Lastly, if you wait a bit, you can actually see the chest "breathing", as it will slowly open and close it's "mouth" every 5 seconds or so.

"I should stop and stare at this object that has previously been established to be harmless and rewarding for a while for absolutely no reason at all to see if it breaths."

Once again, does that really strike you as a reasonable expectation?

 

[Broderick]

Im unsure. I feel as if the Mimic in sen's fortress is actually pretty vocal about it's danger, without even attacking it or opening it. First and foremost, you are in an area FILLED with traps, that should already put you on edge.

"There are traps in this area, therefore I should not interact with an object that has been previously established to be harmless and rewarding."

Does that really strike you as a chain of logic to reasonably expect from players?

Might as place a bonfire that kills you when you try and light it. Because traps.

All the other traps are visibly dangerous (swinging blades, rolling boulders) or give you a chance to dodge or block (arrow traps).

Secondly the position of the chest, its in the middle of the room, at an angle. I don't believe there is a single chest in the game up to that point that is positioned like that; most are up against a wall.

False.

There's one in Darkroot Garden that's sitting in the middle of a pond.

That's just off the top of my head.

Thirdly, regular chests have chains that curve around towards the back of the chest, mimics have chains that point out forward in a line(that one is admittedly, hard to notice if you arnt looking for it).

You just countered your own point.

Lastly, if you wait a bit, you can actually see the chest "breathing", as it will slowly open and close it's "mouth" every 5 seconds or so.

"I should stop and stare at this object that has previously been established to be harmless and rewarding for a while for absolutely no reason at all to see if it breaths."

Once again, does that really strike you as a reasonable expectation?

For your first point, yes actually, I do. In a game that punishes players for not thinking clearly or pushing on ahead without thinking, I would in fact think that they should stop to examine an object such as a chest, in an area full of traps. This is especially true if the gamer has knowledge of other RPG's. At the very least, it might be reasonable to expect it to be trapped.

The one in Dark Root garden is partially surrounded by very dangerous mushroom men. I would figure most players would get to Sen's Fortress before the garden, as it requires either 20k souls, or a long work around through the hydra. Also I said most, not all, are up against walls or close to them.

Yes I did counter my own point, because I conceded that it is hard to notice, but it is noticeable. Is it a rule in this forum to never admit when your opponent may have a point?

As for your last point, it is somewhat reasonable. Hell, my first time through I was striking the statues in the area to make sure they wernt alive. My point was that if a player notices even one of those tells, they should be reasonably suspicious of the chest, thats all. Not that it was a hugely fair, totally foreseeable encounter, but a noticeable one if the player paid enough attention. If we are going to continue this charade, could we dial back on the passive aggressive sarcasm? I came here to discuss, not to throw bile.