What makes Dark Souls "good"?

[Daystar Clarion]

Put it this way.

Remember the furtive Pygmy mentioned in the opening cutscene?

Notice how everything is huge?

The plotline is there, and it's good. You just need to look for it.

 

[Jumplion]

Man, this is making me want to go back to Dark Souls. I got Dark Souls a while ago and I loved every minute of it, but due to the huge backlog of games I had and the holiday season I just sort of stopped playing. That and I got stuck in Blight Town (and every other area I get into), and in many of these kinds of games I feel like I'm not really playing the game right, you know? Like, if the OP can get all the way to Londo, what the hell am I doing? Am I not optimizing my stats right? Am I not finding the right items? Am I not using the best weapons? I dunno.

Also, I find that after playing other, much easier games (at least compared to Dark Souls), makes your technique in Dark Souls worsen. After going back for a bit, I got slaughtered by some mooks in Blight Town multiple times because I completely forgot where I had to go. I'm tempted to start an entirely new character, maybe a magic one as I haven't done one of those in a while.

 

[Something Amyss]

I've got to slightly defend the people who like it because it's hard.

In a world where I can beat games on chaos or insane or WTFISWRONGWITHYOU, it's kind of refreshing to find a challenge. Even if that challenge is stupid. I don't really like the way Dark/Demon's souls does things, but when you're in the desert for a weak without water, you're probably not going to balk at a nice refreshing drink just because it's not the brand of bottled water you like.

 

[MasterOfHisOwnDomain]

I appreciate the way the game is so unforgiving towards you, and it doesn't care if you die a thousand times. It won't tell you where to go, what to do, how to do it. It's an authentic experience, which rewards skill.

 

[josemlopes]

There is in no way any need to use walkthroughs (with the exception of the Ceaseless Discharge, what a joke of a boss).

So for me its the combat and the atmosphere. I love not knowing what kind of enemy Im going to encounter next, everytime a new enemy appears it is intense as hell since you dont know if they are hard to beat.

Now im stuck on the last boss and since it is the last boss I am not that motivated to beat him since I already saw most of what the game has to offer. Although I didnt explored the painting world...

 

[thelastmccabe]

I feel the same way as you OP. I played Demon's Souls for about 10 hours and thought it was pretty much craptastic, and from what I've read, dark souls is the same thing but even worse. You can read my review here if you are curious. http://www.amazon.com/review/R1BS08YUKYGURL/ref=cm_cr_pr_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B002AB7TX8&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode= I'd guess that 99 % of people feel compelled to play these games with a walk through next to them, and to me that's a big sign of a badly made game.

One thing I didn't say in that review is that I also think some of the lack of any story exposition and the lack of any explanation of what you are supposed to be doing is because the developers wanted to save time and money. Maybe it's a game design choice...but it's a game design choice that happens to also mean having to do a lot less work when making the game, and I'm sure that's a BIG factor. The same thing goes for the story. Hiding a few clues around isn't really a story. It's probable that the developers never even had one cohesive story in mind at all (nor did they write one), as evidenced by the discussion on this thread about how what happened in dark souls is open to interpretation and difficult to piece together. Perhaps there wasn't much there to piece together to begin with.

I'm not saying the developers are bad people for doing it this way. They were likely on a budget that they felt necessitated skipping some things. Obviously, a lot of people have been very happy with how the allocated their game development resources. But I think it's naive to think that it was solely a design choice, rather than a budget decision, to strip out explanations, exposition, or an even passably decent interface for loot and inventory purposes.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I love Dark Souls first and foremost for the twisted fantasy images it delivers.

I also love how unapologetic it is. The gameworld isn't there for you to conquer it, it simply exsists on its own terms and if you try to fuck with any of the inhabitants then they'll fuck you right back. And they don't care about playing by the rules or honorable battle, all they want is your head on a stake by whatever dirty means necessary.
I don't like it because it's hard and I need skillful tactics to win, I like it because this is how I imagine a dark fantasy realm to be; Merciless!!!

I DISLIKE Dark Souls however for the lack of personal emotional involvement. There's a story but it's mainly told through the environment. There are no real recurring characters nor does your own character feel like he/she's really part of anything. This makes your actions and conquests feel rather meaningless in the end.

 

[RastaBadger]

I like it. It's challenging enough to make it interesting though I haven't used a walkthrough. I think what I like specifically is that it's hard but I've never felt it was cheating. Whenever I die it's because I wasn't paying attention, I haven't learned the enemies timings and tells yet or I'm just being useless with a controller.

 

[demoman_chaos]

I have a love/hate relation with it. I love how once you know what to do you can get past most everything easily. I hate how if you don't know ahead of time you are boned. Sharing game secrets with your friends like in the old days is key to knowing everything you need to know to master the game.

Tip 1- The halberd you get early one is among the best weapons in game. Upgrade it to a Fire Halberd (via finding the hidden skeleton blacksmith by jumping to what seems like your death) and you have a non-stat based beast that at +10 does over 600 damage.

Tip 2- Start off as a Cleric with the Mystery Key (that unlocks low level locks). Go to straight to New Londo and out the path that leads to the Valley of Drakes. Collect the Astoria Sword for a good starting weapon and try to avoid being murdered by the undead dragon. Get past him and the little dragons and hit up the bonfire. Avoid or kill the black knight and head back to the blacksmith (collecting the longbow and leather armor on the way), then back to Firelink via the elevator. Congrats, you've got some good equipment, skipped a boss, have a straight trip to the blacksmith, and a firekeeper soul if you picked it up from behind the big black knight.

Tip 3- You can skip most of Blighttown via the Valley of Drakes. There is a path which leads right to the end of the poison swamp. You have to run past a few fattys on the way, but you hit the swamp very close to the final bonfire in Blighttown (you do have to go back and get the Roman shield and katana though). You can skip the depths and lower Undead Burg (but you miss an important ember by not going into the depths).

I just made it past Anor Londo's arrow douches, but I really don't have the motivation to keep going so I'm done and that's not changing.

I FUCKING HATE THAT PART!!
The rest of the level is pretty good, but that part is beyond BS. They REALLY need to nerf their rate of fire or at least alter the way the knockback works. On such a tight ledge, you are going to be running at the wall to not fall off. Since it knocks you back based on the way you are facing, you get knocked off by the arrow. The only way I've found that works consistently is to roll like a you are on fire.

 

[mireko]

Well...

1. Possibly the best combat in any action RPG ever.

2. Tense, dark atmosphere.

3. Fantastic level/enemy design.

4. It's fun, duh.

The perceived difficulty of both this game and Demon's Souls serves the atmosphere and feel of the game. It has an actual purpose beyond being "hard". The death penalties too aren't actually that bad when you consider what they're actually doing, which is maintaining a continuity throughout the entire game. You never actually load or save. Unlike most games where you have thousands of deaths that "didn't really happen", here everything that happens becomes canon (including all the horrible things).

As for the plot, well, it's thin. Does it matter? Complaining that a game like this doesn't feed you narrative is like complaining that the newest Lustmord album doesn't have any phat beats or mad guitar riffs. That's just not what they're going for. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls go for more of an atmosphere than a story.

And glitches? Since I haven't run into any serious glitches yet, I have to assume they aren't prevalent enough to be considered a part of the game.

 

[Sozac]

I loved Dark Souls, sadly the majority (seemingly) of the community surrounding the game are "tough" guys who play HARD games for MEN.

You shouldn't need to look up a walkthrough. Part of the appeal of Dark Souls is the breadth of the game, it's absolutely filled with secrets, it does have an old world charm to it. It's set up very much like a traditional Metroidvania, there's a great sense of mystery that would be ruined if you were to search walkthroughs. The game really teaches you to learn from your mistakes, observe, so being patience with the game is paramount.

Speaking only of the mechanics, the combat is engrossing, I've play few games with such tight mechanics, there's visceral feel to it, every little movement counts. Every victory feels like you've earned it.

But what I liked most about the game was the sense of atmosphere. It throws you into a seamless world that feels alive. The game doesn't hand you anything, even the events of the plot are buried. It's a grim experience that few games can replicate. There's a genuine sense of ambience, it really is the kind of game that engulfs the player. Though the press and such put an emphasis on the difficulty, there's much more to it, it's a shame really.

The game is an experience, albeit an unrelenting one.

Edit: Also, there's a lot of mention that the "story" or plot is weak. I'd have to disagree, you just need to look in certain places to learn more. It's actually rather clever in places.

I agree here about the story. The story *is* fascinating but it's incredibly tricky to piece together and make coherent. Even when you do have "all" the information it takes some intuition and interpretation to decide what *you* think is happening.

It is, but it really enhances the sense of mystery I find. You could take a totally different view from another player. I love me some ambiguity. It's a unique game, part from Demon's Souls, but I find Demon's Souls and Dark Souls does enough thematically and design wise to have their own individual identity.

I did really like the plot in both, I was just pointing out that a lot of people won't take the time to piece it together and for those people the plot will seem really thin, whereas it is in fact rather complex and deep.

Lol you got it right on the money. I might watch a playthrough of the game if someone has one out, just because I wanted to see what I missed, but Anor Londo was practically unplayable and with no drive from the story I just quit.

Edit: That's another thing. There is no playthrough of this game. There ware walkthroughs, video guides, and strategy guides, but no true LPs.

Here's an LP I was watching.

http://www.youtube.com/show?p=PNiZdXSPZ3A&tracker=show0

Enjoy.

thank you very much, tried playing it again today and it didnt go to well, but I'd be happy to watch someone else do it.

 

[Sozac]

No, the game doesn't cheat with glitchy mechanics, almost everything is difficult but perfectly fair. People cheat in PvP, but that's another matter. Anor Londo is supposed to be ridiculously hard, and you might just want to run past the giant knights and bat demons, for example. Even if you do something really cheap to beat a part of the game, it's not going to feel cheap because you found a way past an incredibly difficult challenge. I like the "do anything to win mentality", and the fact that you need to use strategy and tactics to deal with every enemy. You're supposed to die a lot, and learn trough constant failure. I also love the oppressive atmosphere, the detailed and unique levels, the enemy design, and the complete satisfaction that you get when you bring a difficult boss down. But it's not everyone's cup of tea, and not because the people who like it are better gamers or anything, it's just not for everyone, and we don't really need you to like it.

I have to disagree with your do anything to win mentality to Anor Londo because literally an hour after trying to get past the arrow part I had to look up a strategy that worked for me because there are strategies for all sorts of people, and I found the best one for me was no joke- Take off all your armor and run past evrything until you get to the arrow guys, then run up to them til the switch to shields and run back down and they will fall off. This was the cheapest thing any game has made me do.Its not because the enemies are hard either.When it comes to fighting every enemy is really easy: the sentinals are slow but take forever to kill, the bats have no health, but can have fast electric attacks, and the knights have easy attack patterns. The three hardest things about Anor Londo was that, the prowling demon (which is skippable), and the bosses which I am stuck at now. The 2 vs. 1 fight is what kills me the most. The two bell gargoyles gave me trouble without Solaire, but you dont get help for these guys. They have weak health, but their attacks together are too much clusterfuck and any attempt at strategy like luring one away doesn't work for every character type. I've only seen it work for people in light armor. So yeah I wish I had it on the PC so I could skip retarded problems like this. I wouldn't be so tired of this if they had put a campfire before parts like this where if there was any competent play-testing it would be obvious these parts needed that. I hate fighting through the same easy fights and even running to the boss takes too long.

 

[Sozac]

Man, this is making me want to go back to Dark Souls. I got Dark Souls a while ago and I loved every minute of it, but due to the huge backlog of games I had and the holiday season I just sort of stopped playing. That and I got stuck in Blight Town (and every other area I get into), and in many of these kinds of games I feel like I'm not really playing the game right, you know? Like, if the OP can get all the way to Londo, what the hell am I doing? Am I not optimizing my stats right? Am I not finding the right items? Am I not using the best weapons? I dunno.

Also, I find that after playing other, much easier games (at least compared to Dark Souls), makes your technique in Dark Souls worsen. After going back for a bit, I got slaughtered by some mooks in Blight Town multiple times because I completely forgot where I had to go. I'm tempted to start an entirely new character, maybe a magic one as I haven't done one of those in a while.

I don't know where in Blighttown you're stuck, but if you're anything like my character it was from those stupid skinny savages that kept biting my face off, once I got to the bugs was when everything became a lot easier. Even the boss I beat the first time just by the rule of thumb that anything that didn't have two legs could easily be walked behind and killed. The boulder giants cheat though so watch out for them guarding the entrance.

 

[Aeonknight]

Your friend is silly OP. At no point do you NEED a walkthrough. If you explore every nook and cranny, you're going to find anything you need to beat the game. Although if you want certain rings, help with completing certain quests for rewards, etc. That's where the walkthrough or wiki comes into play.

You can muscle your way through this game, but it's going to be painful. But when you have an X,Y,Z plan in place with specific builds in mind, it makes the game alot easier. But even with a perfect run through and perfect equipment, the game can still kick your ass. You are by no means invincible, even at max soul level.

That's what makes Dark Souls fun. It's the closest any RPG has come to a balanced skill/gear ratio in a long time.

 

[Sozac]

I've got to slightly defend the people who like it because it's hard.

In a world where I can beat games on chaos or insane or WTFISWRONGWITHYOU, it's kind of refreshing to find a challenge. Even if that challenge is stupid. I don't really like the way Dark/Demon's souls does things, but when you're in the desert for a weak without water, you're probably not going to balk at a nice refreshing drink just because it's not the brand of bottled water you like.

Yeah, difficulty is a tricky thing to get right, thats why different games usually have more than one version of it. But I like it when the way things are harder are like in Halo on legenday where its a simple "you're bullets are worse, there bullets are better" scenario. In this game everything is easy until moments like Anor Londo's arrows or the Bell Gargoyles(without Solaire). Where everything this game taught you doesn't help until you can get them one on one. I think the main problem is that the targeting in this games sort of breaks when fighting more than one person because you are too used to fighting one on one. I never fight multiple enemies at once unless it is mooks.

In the end, I have to go with Jim's view on difficulty, in that it should be up to the player to challenge themselves. I do that all the time, even in this game until I got to Anor Londo I never used a strategy guide. Then I did and I had to do the most convoluted, counter-intuitive thing I could to get through. I feel like it will be the same thing for the bosses

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

Dark Souls is a great game, if Dark Souls is the game for you. It's a challenging game that appeals to people that don't like their hands held and enjoy the sense of accomplishment when they complete the area/boss. It's a hard game but it's also fair. You have to learn the system and master it to win.

I love these types of games for the unique challenges they present but I can also see why people wouldn't be interested in the series. A lot of people don't play video games for the challenge, they play for either the instant gratification or the gratification of being better than other players. While Dark Souls offers the latter to some extent is is primarily a Player vs Monster game, and that caters to a specific audience.

 

[Sozac]

Your friend is silly OP. At no point do you NEED a walkthrough. If you explore every nook and cranny, you're going to find anything you need to beat the game. Although if you want certain rings, help with completing certain quests for rewards, etc. That's where the walkthrough or wiki comes into play.

You can muscle your way through this game, but it's going to be painful. But when you have an X,Y,Z plan in place with specific builds in mind, it makes the game alot easier. But even with a perfect run through and perfect equipment, the game can still kick your ass. You are by no means invincible, even at max soul level.

That's what makes Dark Souls fun. It's the closest any RPG has come to a balanced skill/gear ratio in a long time.

How did you get past the arrows at Anor Londo, or Smough and Ornstein. I can't think of any skill or gear that could help you from either clusterfuck, unless it was just luck which is what I've been hoping for.

 

[Sozac]

Dark Souls is a great game, if Dark Souls is the game for you. It's a challenging game that appeals to people that don't like their hands held and enjoy the sense of accomplishment when they complete the area/boss. It's a hard game but it's also fair. You have to learn the system and master it to win.

I love these types of games for the unique challenges they present but I can also see why people wouldn't be interested in the series. A lot of people don't play video games for the challenge, they play for either the instant gratification or the gratification of being better than other players. While Dark Souls offers the latter to some extent is is primarily a Player vs Monster game, and that caters to a specific audience.

I always hear that phrase "it doesn't hold your hand" when talking about this game, but that is why there are so many strategy guides out for games like this. It is outright neglectful which leads to a lot of the people quiting outright. I think its worse for those who suffer through the earlier rough parts to get to the shit later on. I have mastered the enemies in Anor Londo to the point of not getting hurt until I get to Smough and Ornstein. I never even get to use my 10 flasks before one of them gets in a shot that knocks me over and at that point I an just restart because then there is no hope.

And don't talk about "working for gratification." I could only get gratification when I beat this game because there is no driving force that gives me any satisfaction after completing a level and there will be too much wasted time if I commit myself to the end and I'm happy to get out now.

 

[Aeonknight]

Your friend is silly OP. At no point do you NEED a walkthrough. If you explore every nook and cranny, you're going to find anything you need to beat the game. Although if you want certain rings, help with completing certain quests for rewards, etc. That's where the walkthrough or wiki comes into play.

You can muscle your way through this game, but it's going to be painful. But when you have an X,Y,Z plan in place with specific builds in mind, it makes the game alot easier. But even with a perfect run through and perfect equipment, the game can still kick your ass. You are by no means invincible, even at max soul level.

That's what makes Dark Souls fun. It's the closest any RPG has come to a balanced skill/gear ratio in a long time.

How did you get past the arrows at Anor Londo, or Smough and Ornstein. I can't think of any skill or gear that could help you from either clusterfuck, unless it was just luck which is what I've been hoping for.

There's a few things you could do.

The arrows you could use Iron Skin or maybe a Force Miracle. Maybe even snipe them with arrows from behind that initial pillar.

personally I decided it'd be easier to summon up a phantom or 2 to help with the area. It means risking invasion, but sometimes it's a risk worth taking.

 

[XUnsafeNormalX]

Dark Souls is a great game, if Dark Souls is the game for you. It's a challenging game that appeals to people that don't like their hands held and enjoy the sense of accomplishment when they complete the area/boss. It's a hard game but it's also fair. You have to learn the system and master it to win.

I love these types of games for the unique challenges they present but I can also see why people wouldn't be interested in the series. A lot of people don't play video games for the challenge, they play for either the instant gratification or the gratification of being better than other players. While Dark Souls offers the latter to some extent is is primarily a Player vs Monster game, and that caters to a specific audience.

I always hear that phrase "it doesn't hold your hand" when talking about this game, but that is why there are so many strategy guides out for games like this. It is outright neglectful which leads to a lot of the people quiting outright. I think its worse for those who suffer through the earlier rough parts to get to the shit later on. I have mastered the enemies in Anor Londo to the point of not getting hurt until I get to Smough and Ornstein. I never even get to use my 10 flasks before one of them gets in a shot that knocks me over and at that point I an just restart because then there is no hope.

And don't talk about "working for gratification." I could only get gratification when I beat this game because there is no driving force that gives me any satisfaction after completing a level and there will be too much wasted time if I commit myself to the end and I'm happy to get out now.

Ornstein is fast, Smough is slow and the area is big. Try your best to seperate them and get your hits in on Ornstein.

Good luck.