That's because you have to follow the story lines to meet these people and learn their stories and saving their asses from various fates and even discovering them stuck in a compromising situation.Casual Shinji said:
What makes Dark Souls "good"?
- Thread starter Sozac
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This is a game I want to play and I want to enjoy it the way everyone else seems too. I get that feeling with a lot of the enemies except 2 v 1. That is when the game really breaks. I know if I can get one of them dead I will destroy the super version of the other. I might even just kill Smough first even though every guide is telling me that's a bad move. I practically know Orstein's movements though so I'd rather do that if I can.Ordinaryundone said:
I'm hearing a lot of people talking about "not holding your hand". That's nice and a sign of a good tutorial, but I'm also hearing people talking about the game not telling you anything at all and having to go search for answers, that's terrible game design. A game needs to show you the mechanics and teach you how to play. The best games do it without you knowing but not telling the player at all is expecting them to know something they don't which is an instant failure for your game. Some people like the hard challenge of brute force and trial and error gameplay but everything I ever heard in game design points to that being horrible design and not the way to make games. I haven't played the games so I obviously can't judge this issue for the game but I'd like to point out that issue. There is a line between "hard but fair" and "hard because of poor design".
You really, really shouldn't need a walkthrough to beat the game. It ruins the challenge, and the challenge is a large part of appeal, in an era when games have quite simply pandered to the lowest common denominator (even the "Very Hard" modes). (Disclaimer: it's fine to use a walkthrough if there's one item you just can't find, it is after all still an RPG; but using it for strategies means you aren't developing your own, which is lame.)
I myself didn't find Dark Souls as difficult as Demon's Souls, not by a long shot, but that could be because I played the same class again, so I had all of those strategies pre-developed, and they're a big part of the challenge. Plus some of the discipline is the same in both games - by discipline, I mean never rounding corner without your shield up, never heading out into an intersection without looking both ways first, etc. - and after getting instakilled the first hundred times that way in Demon's Souls, you won't be in Dark Souls. Plus some of the boss/speciality fights play out similarly. ...So I'd say if you're playing Dark Souls for the first time it's just as hard as Demon's Souls, but if you've played Demon's Souls it won't be (and probably if you've played Dark Souls first now and you go back to play the original, it won't be as difficult).
So yes I play it specifically for the challenge. Very few games really make me think these days in order to come up with some coherent strategy, and this one does. Plus the atmosphere in both games is top-notch. They remind me of the original Diablo that way. The story is easily miss-able if you aren't paying attention, or you don't bother to connect the dots, but I love stories like that. Especially if they have a lot of ambiguity. (Same reason I loved SMT: Nocturne.)
They're not for everyone - my roommate has no interest in them because he doesn't want to die a million times over and over for tiny incremental gains, it's not his idea of fun - and there's no shame in that. But for people who hate having things handed to them (success - all too often the game is too easy; workable strategy - it will have some navi-esque character yammering in your ear telling you what works and what doesn't; the plot - some NPC stands there and explains it all) it's heaven.
I myself didn't find Dark Souls as difficult as Demon's Souls, not by a long shot, but that could be because I played the same class again, so I had all of those strategies pre-developed, and they're a big part of the challenge. Plus some of the discipline is the same in both games - by discipline, I mean never rounding corner without your shield up, never heading out into an intersection without looking both ways first, etc. - and after getting instakilled the first hundred times that way in Demon's Souls, you won't be in Dark Souls. Plus some of the boss/speciality fights play out similarly. ...So I'd say if you're playing Dark Souls for the first time it's just as hard as Demon's Souls, but if you've played Demon's Souls it won't be (and probably if you've played Dark Souls first now and you go back to play the original, it won't be as difficult).
So yes I play it specifically for the challenge. Very few games really make me think these days in order to come up with some coherent strategy, and this one does. Plus the atmosphere in both games is top-notch. They remind me of the original Diablo that way. The story is easily miss-able if you aren't paying attention, or you don't bother to connect the dots, but I love stories like that. Especially if they have a lot of ambiguity. (Same reason I loved SMT: Nocturne.)
They're not for everyone - my roommate has no interest in them because he doesn't want to die a million times over and over for tiny incremental gains, it's not his idea of fun - and there's no shame in that. But for people who hate having things handed to them (success - all too often the game is too easy; workable strategy - it will have some navi-esque character yammering in your ear telling you what works and what doesn't; the plot - some NPC stands there and explains it all) it's heaven.
If it'll pique your interest at all, "hard but fair" is the tagline of just about every positive review of the game. It would be mine, too. A friend who saw me playing the game and dying ten, twenty times in the same spot asked me how I could possibly enjoy it, and that was my answer: it's hard but fair. Every time I died, I was doing something wrong. Too slow, too fast, not from the right angle, not using the right attack, not noticing something. I succeeded when I did it right. The game won't cheap you or use glitches or make any enemy over-powered. You start with the tools to overcome all of the challenges presented to you. The first dungeon teaches you how to use all of them (without telling you, of course, but you must use them to beat it) and after that it's up to you to use your own creativity and intelligence to put them all together to beat the rest.Twilight_guy said:
In a lot of games, dying over and over means it's poorly balanced or badly designed; in Demon's/Dark Souls it's immediately evident that loving care went into both the balance and the design of every area. You'll never win by glitch or by fluke. And trust me: when you die, it isn't frustrating at all. You'll know what you did wrong, and be amped to do it better the next time.
I can appreciate your enthusiasm, but honestly 2 vs. 1 fights are part of the game experience. Its an unfair situation, true, but that's why you have to use every method in your arsenal to even the odds. Use elemental resins, summons players, use magic, smith better weapons and armor and grind levels. You have to do what you have to do, because the game isn't going to pull any punches either. Even if that means "exploits" and patently silly strategies like running through dangerous areas naked.Sozac said:
If you think you can take down Smough first, go for it. The problem is, super Ornstein is considerably tougher for a melee character than Super Smough. SS is basically like fighting any other large melee enemy, but SO moves so fast and constantly that you'll have a rough time keeping close to him. If you are playing a magic character, however, then taking down Smough first is the correct course of action.
I think you should start a new character and take the information you know now to heart. You'll find everything you struggled with earlier to be much easier, and you'll be able to approach areas with your newfound hindsight and be much more efficient, as well as coming out with a more rewarding experience.
This. All of the bosses are killable by yourself. I was badly underleveled when I beat O and S (by myself) even and I managed it. It took me probably twenty tries, but all it meant is that I had to use a really good strategy and execute it well. This could go for any of the boss fights. Kill O first and then you're pretty much done anyway. You can even cheap him to death with a crossbow if you want.Ordinaryundone said:
To get past the Archer in Anor Londo is easy, simply rum to the left one , he will ge this sword out the right one wont be able to hit you because of the pillar, kill theleft one, then walk to the right one dodge through his arrows, simple didn't need a guide, though it took me like 3 tries
I sprinted up with my shield up and rammed the one on the right off before the one on the left could shoot me in the back and got around them that way.Char12 said:
It took me a lot more tries than you (probably about ten) but you're right in that you really, really don't need a guide. There are a lot of ways to do it.
Dark Souls is my game of the year
And I do watch guides but they're not necessary by any means. If you happen to go to an area you shouldn't be in you'll be spanked to death by a big scary monster. =)
The thing that makes Dark Souls so "good" is the combat.
It's really challenging and thoughtful, most common enemies take as much effort as a boss in any normal game.
I started out hating the check point system but after a while I started to appreciate it, it really forces you to push your self. Having to get back to where you died to get back your points really makes you patient.
Using different equipment completely changes your play style.
And the length, I've been at it for 100 hours and I think I have a full third of the game left.
Another thing is the feeling of permanence, there's no saving or loading it's just one continuous game so if you fuck up, you have fucked up, there's no do-over. You don't get that feeling from other games. I'm sure you can think of a time where you reloaded a save because you weren't happy with a dialog option you picked?
My only real criticism is that I don't get a good sense for the plot but this is one of the few games that's so good I'll let that slide.
And I do watch guides but they're not necessary by any means. If you happen to go to an area you shouldn't be in you'll be spanked to death by a big scary monster. =)
The thing that makes Dark Souls so "good" is the combat.
It's really challenging and thoughtful, most common enemies take as much effort as a boss in any normal game.
I started out hating the check point system but after a while I started to appreciate it, it really forces you to push your self. Having to get back to where you died to get back your points really makes you patient.
Using different equipment completely changes your play style.
And the length, I've been at it for 100 hours and I think I have a full third of the game left.
Another thing is the feeling of permanence, there's no saving or loading it's just one continuous game so if you fuck up, you have fucked up, there's no do-over. You don't get that feeling from other games. I'm sure you can think of a time where you reloaded a save because you weren't happy with a dialog option you picked?
My only real criticism is that I don't get a good sense for the plot but this is one of the few games that's so good I'll let that slide.
I had a lot of fun with the game, but in all honesty; I got really tired of the grinding and constant dying when I got to Blighttown, so I cheated using the Dragon Head. Didn't get that much easier, but at least I could play without too much trial and error. Gets way too frustrating after a while.
What appeals to me is the medieval setting rather than the difficulty. I love those kinds of games, especially in RPGs.
Also think Demon's Souls was the better game. I really liked the linear levels. Thought it fitted the game better.
What appeals to me is the medieval setting rather than the difficulty. I love those kinds of games, especially in RPGs.
Also think Demon's Souls was the better game. I really liked the linear levels. Thought it fitted the game better.
Dark Souls is a great experience. It's challenging but not frustrating , and once you beat it , you really do feel accomplished. It's been one of the few games that I have played multiple times after I initially beat it.
I'm pretty sure the reason it is loved is because it is hard without being unfair. Unless your REALLY thick the game will not be stupid towards you.
I mean, sure it fires some cheap shots your way numerous times, but after the first scenario you should have learned your lesson.
I mean, sure it fires some cheap shots your way numerous times, but after the first scenario you should have learned your lesson.
It is my GOTY and probably one of the best games I have played in the last couple of years. Yes OP, we get it, you can point out the flaws of DkS, but if I put in the same effort you did, I could point out the flaws in all your favorite games as well.
I can admit its faults though and my biggest gripe with this game is that being a purist in your class is unbearable for the average being. There is no fucking point in playing a thief to a tee. Riposting is hard as fuck because even though the moves are predictable, the timing of their strike is not. The dagger does not have that much of an advantage over any other weapon (apart from multiplier and whatnot when it comes to backstabs). Grabbing a shield without 100% physical damage block is stupid, and so forth and so on.
The game definitely hits the point of convolution. But if we want to look at convoluted, we would being using any TES game as an example. Despite whatever its flaws, I like DkS because it is a great hack'n'slash/dungeon crawler game with well integrated RPG elements and an amazing setting.
I can admit its faults though and my biggest gripe with this game is that being a purist in your class is unbearable for the average being. There is no fucking point in playing a thief to a tee. Riposting is hard as fuck because even though the moves are predictable, the timing of their strike is not. The dagger does not have that much of an advantage over any other weapon (apart from multiplier and whatnot when it comes to backstabs). Grabbing a shield without 100% physical damage block is stupid, and so forth and so on.
The game definitely hits the point of convolution. But if we want to look at convoluted, we would being using any TES game as an example. Despite whatever its flaws, I like DkS because it is a great hack'n'slash/dungeon crawler game with well integrated RPG elements and an amazing setting.
Attitude.
From Software does not feel confident designing based on market data, so they will instead compete by creating a great game. - From Software
From Software does not feel confident designing based on market data, so they will instead compete by creating a great game. - From Software
I have barely got anywhere with that game, stuck on the damn capra demon. I could probably get through it if it werent for his dogs...but I love it pretty much because whereas in other hack and slash/rpg games, there will be enemies who are of little to no trouble, in dark souls, every time you encounter an enemy, there's a very real chance it'll kill you, even if it's just one hollow.
Every enemy feels like it's fighting for its life every bit as hard as you are.
It's definately not for everyone, though, so don't feel bad if you don't see the appeal, that's one of the things I respect most in dark souls. In an age where games and films and well, everything, is made cynically to a bunch of graphs saying which decisions will get the most sales, dark souls has dared to simply be dark souls, regardless of whether it sells or whether the majority of people like it.
Every enemy feels like it's fighting for its life every bit as hard as you are.
It's definately not for everyone, though, so don't feel bad if you don't see the appeal, that's one of the things I respect most in dark souls. In an age where games and films and well, everything, is made cynically to a bunch of graphs saying which decisions will get the most sales, dark souls has dared to simply be dark souls, regardless of whether it sells or whether the majority of people like it.
Two things:
- very solid combat
- very detailed boss fights
That is pretty much all you can expect and if you didn't come in spoiling for a fight then you best not even start.
I do wish it came to PC so some of the asinine ideas could be modded, if these games had proper save systems they would probably be at the top of my RPG list but as they are now it stays in the "almost good" bucket.
- very solid combat
- very detailed boss fights
That is pretty much all you can expect and if you didn't come in spoiling for a fight then you best not even start.
I do wish it came to PC so some of the asinine ideas could be modded, if these games had proper save systems they would probably be at the top of my RPG list but as they are now it stays in the "almost good" bucket.