What really grinds my gears? The Nineties' Anti-Hero.

Ciran

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I'm actually not a fan of the anti-hero archetype in general. I'm not saying there aren't those out there that are compelling and cool, but most of them try to be too dark and pessimistic but are still way stronger than pretty much everyone in the comic/movie/book/etc, so it makes no sense for them to be dark and pessimistic (mostly anime/manga is guilty of this, but I've seen it elsewhere).
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Ciran said:
I'm actually not a fan of the anti-hero archetype in general. I'm not saying there aren't those out there that are compelling and cool, but most of them try to be too dark and pessimistic but are still way stronger than pretty much everyone in the comic/movie/book/etc, so it makes no sense for them to be dark and pessimistic (mostly anime/manga is guilty of this, but I've seen it elsewhere).
No man is a island, life can tech you to not give much trust or hope in humanity.
 

Atmos Duality

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It should go without saying that you can have the same character done in a completely different light depending on the author (this applies to both comics and movies. See The Hulk for the prime example, or the upcoming "Spiderman Franchise Reboot Movie". For comics, the obvious reference is Batman. Or Cable and Deadpool. Take your pick).

Marketing research drove most of these 90s anti-heroes, and marketers are only interested in moving goods and selling merchandise; they couldn't care less about the actual quality of a story as long as it makes money.

And while I'll take flak for saying this, that also seems to be the primary motivation behind most animes that I've seen (largely against my will). And please don't say that I'm hating on Japan; Their culture is more entangled with the United States' than I ever would have imagined.

On the other hand, some good did come out of the tidal wave of GRIMDARK (as you're all calling it) characters; we got a number of good cyberpunk games/media out of it.
 

blindthrall

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I agree with the OP on the subject of comics, but there are some settings that require grimdark. Silly Rabbit Idealism would get you killed in the Warhammer universe.
 

Kollega

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voorhees123 said:
...Anti heroes are attacking what effects them, not for the greater good, even though their actions would effect this. For instance, if Hitler raped my sister, i would hunt and kill him for that crime, the idea that thousands of peoples lives would be better off once i killed him would not come into it.
Yeah, i see... but again, we're running into the semantics. Not all people who were always considered anti-heroes have revenge or monetary gain as their main motivation. Some do in fact battle for the greater good, they're simply not too gentle about it.

And anyway, this rant was more against the crappy antiheroes, the ones who don't even have any sort of backstory. Or devote one badly-written paragraph to it.

blindthrall said:
I agree with the OP on the subject of comics, but there are some settings that require grimdark. Silly Rabbit Idealism would get you killed in the Warhammer universe.
And that's why i love to bash the Warhammer universe too. [small]Really, if only they made the characters take themselves a slight bit less seriously, i could have had some great fun with it. Another tabletop game, Paranoia, is a good example of GRIMDARK played for hilarity.[/small]
 

subject_87

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Rorschach was probably one of the pioneers of this; it seems like every comic protagonist has to be every bit as gritty and angsty as Rorschach, under pain of death.
 

AgentNein

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Kollega said:
AgentNein said:
...It's adolescent fantasy nonsense enjoyed by kids and kids at heart (not in the good way).
By teenagers and teenagers-at-heart, rather. Just felt like nitpicking :p
No, you're absolutely right. Much better way of putting it. Cuz I like kids, and a lot of the time I like how kids think. I hate how teenagers (for the most part) think however. Hate it with fiery passion.
 

Ciran

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ZippyDSMlee said:
Ciran said:
I'm actually not a fan of the anti-hero archetype in general. I'm not saying there aren't those out there that are compelling and cool, but most of them try to be too dark and pessimistic but are still way stronger than pretty much everyone in the comic/movie/book/etc, so it makes no sense for them to be dark and pessimistic (mostly anime/manga is guilty of this, but I've seen it elsewhere).
No man is a island, life can tech you to not give much trust or hope in humanity.
Um...while that saying and the phrase after doesn't go together as well as you think they do, I'm also left wondering what exactly you meant.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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Kollega said:
ADDENDUM regarding Warhammer 40000: i do not like it. It was supposed to be a parody on GRIMDARK, but due to misaimed fandom it has become a straight example instead, the most miserable and nihilistic setting ever created (or at least one of top-three). 40k's true face, it's true potential for hilarity can still be seen through a lens of parodies, fan-works and memes surrounding it, as well as being represented in Orks.
I'm well acquainted with your views on 40K and how they fundamentally clash with my own, but suggesting 40K was always meant to be a parody is just a silly thing to do - it was always over the top, and in the earliest versions there were a lot of genuinely odd or (in my estimation) not particularly well thought through concepts, but the core of what makes 40K what it is has always been there. The franchise was never "supposed to be a parody", Games Workshop just didn't take it entirely seriously at first as they fully expected it to be an amusing little diversion from Warhammer Fantasy that wouldn't sell very well and thus would not be something they'd come back to.

Discovering that their customers loved it so much that it quickly became their primary concern simply prompted them to fill in those parts of the background where they'd left obvious jokes/in-references and little else with some actual material and depth. The state of modern 40K can't be blamed on misguided fans taking obvious parody seriously and writers accommodating them because hey, "the customer is always right", it's what you get when the minds behind the setting take their own setting seriously.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Kollega said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Kollega said:

talking to mew?
SNIP WHAT?! I asked you: why did you quote my entire, huge message?
ah, I just forgot to snip it 0-o
==============================================
Ciran said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Ciran said:
I'm actually not a fan of the anti-hero archetype in general. I'm not saying there aren't those out there that are compelling and cool, but most of them try to be too dark and pessimistic but are still way stronger than pretty much everyone in the comic/movie/book/etc, so it makes no sense for them to be dark and pessimistic (mostly anime/manga is guilty of this, but I've seen it elsewhere).
No man is a island, life can tech you to not give much trust or hope in humanity.
Um...while that saying and the phrase after doesn't go together as well as you think they do, I'm also left wondering what exactly you meant.
How others or society treats you refines who you are, if they treat you poorly you start to hide some aspects of your personality and let others out more because you do not care anymore.
 

Kollega

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Gildan Bladeborn said:
The state of modern 40K can't be blamed on misguided fans taking obvious parody seriously and writers accommodating them because hey, "the customer is always right", it's what you get when the minds behind the setting take their own setting seriously.
Well, if they are taking themselves seriously, there's nothing that could be really done about this. But i still maintain that 40k would be better if it's canon was populated by the likes of Angry Marines and Comissar Fuklaw. Paranoia, for example, unashamedly plays GRIMDARK for laughs - and i find it pretty damn funny. Because not finding Paranoia funny is treason, and treason is punishable by death.

[small]See?[/small]

P.S. I like "beakie" helmet design waaaaay better than the current ones.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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Kollega said:
But i still maintain that 40k would be better if it's canon was populated by the likes of Angry Marines and Comissar Fuklaw.
See, you say that as somebody who doesn't really like the overarching setting much, but I've read Iron Hands[footnote]The novel that almost certainly spawned the whole "Angry Marines!!!" meme - the protagonist has literally one response to every possible situation: Become filled with rage. Thinking about things makes him angry, talking to people makes him angry, thinking about talking to people makes him angry, shooting people makes him angry, etc. The rest of the novel was fairly straight forward militaristic fiction with some interesting elements, but Iron Father Gdolkin and his omnipresent anger overshadowed everything else; it is not the worst 40K novel ever written, but it comes darn close (bottom 5 for sure).[/footnote], and a setting where authors are actually encouraged to write characters like Gdolkin would be horrible. 40K novels, on the whole, are actually very good, and the setting as it is now makes for wonderful speculative fiction precisely because it's so very unlike the typical 20th century envisioning of an optimistic future populated with cultures mirroring our modern day values and celebrating the triumph of reason and science.

I don't deny that the 40K parodies are funny - I find them very amusing in fact - but those parodies work because the setting itself, despite all the over the top and frankly ludicrous elements, is actually quite serious (and generally rather well written, even when it's still kind of ridiculous). If the setting was actually filled with the likes of the Angry Marines, they wouldn't be an amusing fan parody anymore, they'd just be terribly written caricatures of... well, nothing, since 40K can't very well exist as a parody of itself[footnote]If 40K was a new setting one might reasonably argue that it could successfully exist as a parody of all the other GRIMDARK media franchises, but 40K isn't new and all those other franchises it would be "parodying" are ripping off 40K in the first place.[/footnote].

You'd end up with a universe populated with very poorly written characters that might work just fine for a mildly humorous table top wargame that nobody takes seriously anyways, but any novels such a setting produces would probably be terrible abominations not fit for print. Considering my primary interest in Warhammer 40,000 resides in the fiction, I cringe at the very thought.
 

Axolotl

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Kollega said:
Well, if they are taking themselves seriously, there's nothing that could be really done about this. But i still maintain that 40k would be better if it's canon was populated by the likes of Angry Marines and Comissar Fuklaw.
But that's like saying "I think Star Wars would be better if it was more like Spaceballs.". Complaing that something is bad because it's not a paradoy is well a stupid complaint. You want it to be someting it isn't.
 

Kollega

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Gildan Bladeborn said:
40K novels, on the whole, are actually very good, and the setting as it is now makes for wonderful speculative fiction precisely because it's so very unlike the typical 20th century envisioning of an optimistic future populated with cultures mirroring our modern day values and celebrating the triumph of reason and science.
Well i've already said what my main beef with GRIMDARKNESS as a trend is. Let me just restate that if the story is meant to be taken seriously, i like it to have a bit of... y'know, hope throughout. So okay, you don't require this and so you can enjoy the 40k novels. Great for you. I'm still dissatisfied with the setting (to each his own, duh), but my semi-coherent ranting on an Internet forum is not likely to change anything about it. Which is again, great for you and all the other fans.

And beakie helmets rule anyway, no matter the situation.

If the setting was actually filled with the likes of the Angry Marines, they wouldn't be an amusing fan parody anymore, they'd just be terribly written caricatures of... well, nothing, since 40K can't very well exist as a parody of itself.
Oh man... talk about paradoxes.

Come to think of it, maybe it could have been an exagerrated parody of "gritty sci-fi": everything cyberpunk, Aliens, Dune maybe (not sure if it's THAT gritty), and such... because 40k as it is *ahem* borrows a lot of elements from these anyway.

And as a side note, i've recently thought on a subject of "discopunk"... so Disco Marines actually seem like a good idea.

***

Axolotl said:
But that's like saying "I think Star Wars would be better if it was more like Spaceballs." You want it to be someting it isn't.
Damn straight i want it! Thing is: i don't ask Star Wars to be more like Spaceballs because i like the original Star Wars. GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE... not so much.
 

albinoterrorist

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Arcanite Ripper said:
I want the protagonists to be an embodiment of courage, selflesness, and self-reliance - not of arrogance, petty threats, and racism.

Does anyone agree with me? Are there any other people also sick of all the GRIMDARK?
And that's where the legendary Big Boss steps in.

True, while Solid was arguably just as good, his arrogance in MGS1 kind of ruined him for me.

Big Boss never had those hang-ups in MGS3. He was just desperately trying to pull through long enough to complete his mission.

While I wouldn't say i'm sick of the Grimdark, it is always nice to have a change once in a while.
 

Arcanite Ripper

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albinoterrorist said:
Arcanite Ripper said:
I want the protagonists to be an embodiment of courage, selflesness, and self-reliance - not of arrogance, petty threats, and racism.

Does anyone agree with me? Are there any other people also sick of all the GRIMDARK?
And that's where the legendary Big Boss steps in.

True, while Solid was arguably just as good, his arrogance in MGS1 kind of ruined him for me.

Big Boss never had those hang-ups in MGS3. He was just desperately trying to pull through long enough to complete his mission.

While I wouldn't say i'm sick of the Grimdark, it is always nice to have a change once in a while.
Yay, my first misquote! /hugs

Also, I can't figure out what you were beginning to talking on.
 

Kollega

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albinoterrorist said:
Kollega said:
I want the protagonists to be an embodiment of courage, selflesness, and self-reliance - not of arrogance, petty threats, and racism.

Does anyone agree with me? Are there any other people also sick of all the GRIMDARK?
And that's where the legendary Big Boss steps in. True, while Solid was arguably just as good, his arrogance in MGS1 kind of ruined him for me. Big Boss never had those hang-ups in MGS3. He was just desperately trying to pull through long enough to complete his mission.

While I wouldn't say i'm sick of the Grimdark, it is always nice to have a change once in a while.
Say, is there a PC version of MGS 3? I kinda forgot if there is.