What?s up with Japanese Games and storytelling?

[atled3]

I don't really play JRPG's but I do like the story in the dead-rising series.
Oh and metal gear solid I liked that too.

 

[Angryman101]

I...kind of agree with what you're saying. I was very much into anime and manga for a long time when I was younger, as well as JRPGs. As my tastes expanded and I started reading/watching/playing more western material, the stories I was reading from Japan just did not cut it. I think it's a cultural dissonance thing, as the architectural characters featured in every god damned anime/JRPG annoy the fuck out of me while people in Japan are enthralled with them. I honestly couldn't finish Final Fantasy 7 because I died on the final boss, asked myself 'is it really worth going out and grinding in order to find out what happens?' and decided that no, it wasn't. Just like 90% of all the anime, manga, and J-games that emerge from that country, it just...sucked when compared to a lot of the stuff I had become accustomed to with Western games/animation/movies. The stories were more coherent, the characters were better written, deeper, and more god damned direct.
I think that's what infuriates me so much about Japanese stories. It's all so fucking wishy-washy. People can't fucking spit out what they want to say no matter how convenient it would be for everyone else. Everything is so vague and full of fluff, it infuriates me. Yes, I can see through the lines. Yes, I understand what's going on. But why the fuck should I care? All the namby-pamby bullshit just aggravates me and doesn't hook me in or get me invested into the characters (using Cloud and Leon as my prime examples), nor does their FUCKING liberal use of ellipses. Random pausing instead of actual communication doesn't make them interesting, and it's a god damned cheap and overly simplified method of making them mysterious.
My thoughts are broken and fragmented, I apologize.
Metal Gear Solid games, Cowboy Bebop, and Mahou Sensei Negima are some of my favorite stories/works of fiction, so it's not like I'm biased against everything that comes out of Japan. I'm completely unable to play JRPGs anymore, though, and I'm saddened by that since I used to love the genre so much; but in my opinion, you can't compare, say, Final Fantasy 7 (the entirety of it) to, say, Mordin's character interactions and loyalty quest in Mass Effect 2. ME 2's character writing just blows that shit out of the water.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Metal Gear Solid games, Cowboy Bebop, and Mahou Sensei Negima are some of my favorite stories/works of fiction, so it's not like I'm biased against everything that comes out of Japan.

I'll have to check out Mahou Sensei Negima because I love Metal Gear and Cowboy Bebop, and I'm looking for a show to plow through just before the fall schedule starts. You should check out everything Ghost in the Shell, it's all great (2 movies, 2 TV seasons, and a TV movie). The first season of the show is one of the best TV seasons I've ever seen. It is one of those shows that doesn't want to give up much of the main plot but they give you just enough to understand what is going on. And, I really enjoyed Trigun as well. I really don't understand why people watch those super popular animes like Naruto, Bleach, Dragonball Z, etc. I seriously can't get through an episode of those shows because the characters are so damn annoying (not the dub, the original Japanese track). Also, since you liked Cowboy Bebop, run out and get Firefly (TV show, only 14 episodes) and Serenity (movie, takes place after the show) if you haven't already. It's an American show that FOX cancelled. I recommend it any chance I get because it's my favorite show of all time.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

If there is a difference, other than cultural, between Japan and America it is that Japan still allows more for the guidance of one "auteur" who has final word over what goes in the game. Yahtzee said as much in his column. This can work well like in Shadow of the Colossus but it can also work not so well. Like, Braid for example, one person decided what went into the game and I'm sick of hearing about how the story was too dense and impenetrable and how he should have brought someone else in to fix it for him. The western game community not only doesn't go for auteur developers but is actively hostile to them. Jonathan Blow is one of the most hated game developers out there despite making one of the best indie games that is well loved by many people.

 

[Automated]

You're trying to compare Western storytelling in games to Eastern Translated storytelling.
Of course you're gonna have a much different idea of how the characters should act and develop and there is going to be a lot of information that is /gasp lost in translation.
One thing i suggest to look at is linguistic relativity which, while still just an idea, is very relevant to my point and what I'm trying to say

"The diversity of languages is not a diversity of signs and sounds but a diversity of views of the world."

+ all other points posted that I couldn't be bothered to quote

 

[Akihiko]

I honestly have no problem with Japanese story-telling. I often find Japanese-made stories, such as those from Metal Gear Solid are very much superior to any Modern Warfares, Mass Effects, or Dragon Ages.

Telling a story in a game is different than doing it up in a movie. While both should be trying to immerse you, a movie only gets you for a couple hours, usually at most. Within this short time-span, you need to start, progress, and finish a story. And while they often get very entertaining, characters skip around in settings because the show must go on as there's a time limit.

Games, even Western ones usually number around 5 times that much in terms of the amount of time they're throwing at you. That's 5 movies you're watching, and if they merely kept throwing the same stuff at you, it would get repetitive, and playing probably would get stale without impetus. This is where I see games like Metal Gear, and FFVII shine. They're filling out an entire world for you. One you might be familiar with, maybe one you could never imagine. Chances are, if you just saw all of the over-the-top stuff in those games without some filling in, you'd put down the controller, laugh uncontrollably, and walk away to go jerk off or something. Many Final Fantasies number the 50-mark hour for a first-time play-through, and that's without side-quests. They need to keep introducing new elements. Who would want to play Level 1-1 of Super Mario Bros. for 50 hours?

I'm a writer, and an avid reader, so perhaps my brain just works in a way to analyze stories, and connect dots easily. I've never had problems understanding a story, good or bad. And if I miss something, I go research. In fact, I appreciate what I can learn from references in games that throw so much symbolism, etc at me. I always liked Sephiroth, I found him to be an engaging character, and convoluted motives just made him more fun to study. I ended up coming across what his name was supposed to mean, and saw how it fit. And with that reference, I could connect other things Square threw into FFVII and make a life-long love out of it.

So, yeah. I don't see any problem. I liked Advent Children, as well, and none of the ridiculous shite bothered me one bit. There were, however, two glaring inconsistencies that made my balls hurt when I thought about them. However, this post is long enough, so I'll wait for someone to ask before I get into that.

Pretty much this. I've always noticed a lot of symbolism in japanese games, the majority of which unless you're japanese, you just won't get. Like off the top of my mind in Tales of the Abyss, the main character, Luke, cuts his hair. For a westerner, that might just seems like a completely random notion if you didn't connect the dots. However, apparently in Japan, cutting your hair signifies change.

I've never considered Mass Effect or Dragon Age Origins, to have a particularly strong story personally. They can both be summed up fairly simply in a few paragraphs just cutting out the action parts. However, I've always thought it's the choice that defines western games just as great. It's also what limits that amount of detail they can put in the story. I know in Dragon Age, what made the game special for me, was the amazing characters and music, not the story of the game itself although there was some epic moments in the story.

 

[Tarkand]

Mass Effect doesn't have a strong story? >_> Maybe you should watch today's Extra Credit where he spend 7 minutes explaining the impact and value of one (rather small) plot point...

Compare that to Squall jumping to his death in the void of space to catch his love interest, with sappy music that apparently made tons of people cry... and somehow being saved by the Deus Ex Machina that is a long forgotten super ship that just happened to be within floating distance of an exploding space prison... yeah...

 

[Sabiancym]

I just don't understand anything anime. I've never played an anime style game that I liked. I usually end up quitting fairly early on because it's just way too annoying.

It's why I'll never understand why people love Final Fantasy games. I just don't get it.

 

[Akihiko]

Mass Effect doesn't have a strong story? >_> Maybe you should watch today's Extra Credit where he spend 7 minutes explaining the impact and value of one (rather small) plot point...

Compare that to Squall jumping to his death in the void of space to catch his love interest, with sappy music that apparently made tons of people cry... and somehow being saved by the Deus Ex Machina that is a long forgotten super ship that just happened to be within floating distance of an exploding space prison... yeah...

I watched it, and although that is very true. You fail to realise, that japanese games are capable of including such symbolism too, which is exactly what we're trying to argue in this very thread. The only problem is, you might not fully underatand the references. Just like, they wont understand the references that American developers put in. That's how cultural differences are.

By the way, I never mentioned VIII, so I'm not quite sure where you got that one from? Western developers are capable of dues ex machina too. It isn't an eastern only thing. Not to mention, every country has its good and bad developers.

I'll repeat this again since apparently you missed it the first time as well as go into more detail. WRPGs will always have better choice, they allow you to choose what you would want to do, and change the game depending on that. However because of that choice, that lowers the amount of time they can spend developing each possible story a player can get using each choice selection. Which is where JRPGs come in. JRPGs are more like a book. You have no choice in what happens. In return for getting rid of this choice, they can develop the story far more than you could possibly do in a WRPG because they've not got to account for everyones in game choices. Which is better? Neither. They both offer different things.

 

[Tarkand]

I watched it, and although that is very true. You fail to realise, that japanese games are capable of including such symbolism too, which is exactly what we're trying to argue in this very thread.

Well yes, I know I fail to realise it. I'm wise enough to realise than when a lot of people like a certain thing, there's usually something be liked about it. I just don't really see it.

Funny thing is I used to love all those jrpg and anime styled game when I was younger.

By the way, I never mentioned VIII, so I'm not quite sure where you got that one from? Western developers are capable of dues ex machina too. It isn't an eastern only thing. Not to mention, every country has its good and bad developers.

The FFVIII comment was just the first thing that came to my mind when I thought of 'epic jrpg story moment' - a moment that supposedly induced a lot of tears - it wasn't because of something you said.

I'll repeat this again since apparently you missed it the first time as well as go into more detail. WRPGs will always have better choice, they allow you to choose what you would want to do, and change the game depending on that. However because of that choice, that lowers the amount of time they can spend developing each possible story a player can get using each choice selection. Which is where JRPGs come in. JRPGs are more like a book. You have no choice in what happens. In return for getting rid of this choice, they can develop the story far more than you could possibly do in a WRPG because they've not got to account for everyones in game choices. Which is better? Neither. They both offer different things.

I understand what you're saying. However, for the most part, JRPG game designer/storyteller just aren't that good from where I sit. They aren't great writer or novelist... they're just guy who had a cool idea and are trying to make an entire game fit around it. And from my experience, the vast majority of the time it just doesn't work. So you end with a long, very well detailed story... that also makes very little sense, obfuscate much of its depth in order to appear more mysterious and interesting than it really is, suffers from horrible pacing issues and is filled with dubious character choices.

When that happens in western media, people pick up on it and critique... but stuff like that is the norm for Japanese game (from what I've seen anyway).

 

[Arqus_Zed]

And what about games where the story is actually important? How many people say they play jrpg for 'the story'? The Final Fantasy series? VII, VIII, X, XII and XIII were all pretty bad from a story point of view

Heh, I love how you not include Final Fantasy IX in there - which, of course, would have been a serious mistake. (best. f*cking. fairytale. ever.)

On a side note, your argument is invalid. In my eyes, at least. Are there many Japanese games with bad stories? Yes. But then again, there are also many Western games with bad stories. What is it called again, Sturgeon's Law?

Anyhow, the idea that Japan may have more/worse stories is simply because of your Western mindset. Japan has a completely different culture and interprets certain elements of story telling otherwise.

For example: I don't see anyone mistaking a Walt Disney or Don Bluth animation with something Satoshi Kon or Mamoru Oshii did. Not just the differences in animation, but also the differences in the story - both the content as well as the manner of it being told. (It's also known that American animation focuses more on tugging the heartstrings, while Japanimation is more about making you think - philosophical stuff and such.)

So, maybe you haven't played enough jRPG's yet, but if you come around my house and start telling me that the genre that spawned titles like 'Chrono Trigger', 'Legend of Legaia' and 'Shadow Hearts' has bad storytelling... Well, then you and I are at an impasse, good sir!

 

[The Procrastinated End]

How many Japanese games have you played? I'm sure there are plenty of games with good stories (BlazBlue, Shadow of the Collosus, Silent Hill, and Persona), there is just some bad ones as well. It's not like all games from the west are all perfect storytellers.

And then the voice acting comes in. Poorly dubbed and quite often with really subpar voice actors which only serve to enforce the flaw of the story

And isn't this more the English translators'/voice actors' fault then the Japanese developers'?

 

[JPH330]

I think it's just that the Japanese have a very different culture going on. Apparently, a culture that likes bad storytelling.

 

[Ken Sapp]

It's you. What it boils down to is a matter of taste in that the games are not delivering the story in a way that you like. So what. Everyone has different tastes and just because it doesn't appeal to you does not mean it is automatically bad. I'm sure there are games in your library of favorites which I don't like. Nothing can please and appeal to everyone and it is ridiculous to think that there is some mystical singular formula by which everything is measured for everyone. Enjoy the games you like and let others enjoy the games they like even if you don't and don't let it bother you.

 

[A random person]

I honestly have no problem with Japanese story-telling. I often find Japanese-made stories, such as those from Metal Gear Solid are very much superior to any Modern Warfares, Mass Effects, or Dragon Ages.

I agree with you, at least on the first game (haven't played the others, so I can't judge). My general understanding is that Japanese games generally seem to be more story-focused (in general, mind, before several Bioware fans kill me), which would naturally mean there would be both more good and convoluted stories.

Also, the basic fact that Japanese games vary. I'm not all that interested in FFXIII, but am loving Metal Gear Solid and Persona 3.

Lastly, bad voice acting is the fault of localizers, and since there's the inevitable talk of finding the diamond in the rough, I'll just give my usual advice to try TV Tropes.

Japan is a different culture, american made games are just as stupid so are canadian, get overyourself.

Speaking of how we're both stupid/weird, I wonder if Japan looks at WH40k in all its grimdarkness and thinks "oh America (technically Britain, but whatever)."

 

[Tarkand]

Heh, I love how you not include Final Fantasy IX in there - which, of course, would have been a serious mistake. (best. f*cking. fairytale. ever.)

In no small part because I actually loved that one, the exception that confirms the rule as far as the Final Fantasy series goes

 

[NRVNQSR86]

There are enough Japanese games with a great story, but A) not all of them are available in the West and B) there are sufficient bad translators out there (I read plenty of books that get translated from English to Dutch by professional translators - those who translate day in day out as a job - and they sometimes make the most horrendous errors. Now imagine it with games - not always professional translators are hired, and it's very easy to get the meaning 'lost in translation' (pardon the pun)).
Also, a lot of the better stories can be found with the VNs (eroge and non-eroge). JRPGs can be good on the story (original FFs come to mind for example), but it's more rare.

To be honest - writing a good story for an game is an daunting task in itself, which is why Battlefield, CoD and it's ilk for example don't even really bother.
It's common among games in all cultures.

Captcha: 'Fellow traveller'. How does it know?....

 

[GloatingSwine]

But to cut to the chase? is it me or game designers seems to all be incredibly bad at writing stories?

I fixed the quote for you.

Game stories as a whole are toss. Game storylines are so bad overall that we frequently mistake competence for excellence (though being interactive and therefore more connected to the progression of the story does help).

Japanese games have the extra burdens of 1. a set of cultural assumptions not shared by people outside of Japan and 2. having to be translated, probably by people of questionable talent at dramatic writing in English.