What vampires MUST be

Torkuda

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From wikipedia:

"Although many cultures have stories about them, vampire bats have only recently become an integral part of the traditional vampire lore. Indeed, vampire bats were only integrated into vampire folklore when they were discovered on the South American mainland in the 16th century.[140] Although there are no vampire bats in Europe, bats and owls have long been associated with the supernatural and omens, although mainly because of their nocturnal habits,[140][141] and in modern English heraldic tradition, a bat means "Awareness of the powers of darkness and chaos".[142]"

Though it's kinda hard to find many other solutions to this "chicken or the egg" problem.
 

Alexsi

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I think that 'Can these be called vampires?' should generally take a back seat to 'WHY should I call these vampires?' The issue people take with vampires that do not follow the typical 'rules' is that there is no reason to use the name vampire EXCEPT to say 'this belongs in the same creature class as Dracula, etc.'

Could you call dragon-morphs vampires? Absolutely, it's just a word - but WHY would you call them vampires when 'vampire' is already associated with a number of things said dragon-morphs lack? If it's just exploiting brand recognition, then you deserve every bit of flak you get. If it's to somehow inject new life into the concept, it's best to tinker with the environment, ancillary creatures, and storytelling methods. There is more to a vampire story than it just containing vampires; and if you create horrifying dragon-monsters that drink blood then you haven't made vampires scary again - you've made a scary story involving dragon monsters (you could always pay tribute to a specific character or classic mannerisms beyond the 'core' rules and functionality of the creature to cultivate the 'this is a vampire' image, but forcing a creature to act a certain way is a much greater restraining bolt than just 'being' something.)

More specifically to the story... Dragons are highly distinctive. People know dragons. People LIKE dragons. Involving dragons makes any story 100% more dragon...y. Utilizing another FANTASY monster as the base for your creature makes it rather likely that they'll be seen as the creature that is undeniably involved with them rather than the one they are declared to be. Maybe BIRD people could be vampires, because birds are mundane and a ready part of life for most people (and with bats you don't have to do a whole lot to get away with it in at least a few eyes;) but dragons have their own inescapable presence that hangs around regardless of which of the myriad kinds of dragons you use.

If they don't HAVE to drink blood and just do so for the fun of it, if they have NO specific weaknesses, and if they're made BY aliens FROM dragons; they probably shouldn't be called vampires. The word isn't exactly too sacred to besmirch, but what purpose would calling them vampires actually serve? Is using OUR classic mythology to establish that these creatures have been around a while in THEIR world and interacting with humans that important? Utilizing the classic mythology but saying 'these are what vampires have always been in this setting' says "AN' E'RYONE AN' E'RYTHIN' HAS BEEN WRONG ABOUT WHAT VAMPIRES ARE RIGHT UP TIL NOW..." and THAT'S probably besmirching something.
 

bug_of_war

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Torkuda said:
Before it was thought that, since vampires don?t exist, we can pretty much declare that they are whatever we want them to be.
Before Twilight I literally never heard that statement. What makes a thing a thing, fictional or not are the key features, for example a chair at it's core HAS to have a base to sit on and a back rest to be a chair. Without the back rest it's a stool. if that base is quite large it can be considered a table. So, what you describe is not a vampire as you've strayed away from the basics. As much as I hate Twilight, the Vampires in it are still Vampires. They drink blood, were once human, and are ageless immortals. EVERY other feature is up to the creator's whim, are they strong? can they fly? how does sunlight effect them? how does one become a vampire? so on and what not.

Just because it's fictional doesn't mean you can slap it's name on anything.
 

Torkuda

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"Just because it's fictional doesn't mean you can slap it's name on anything."

You think not? What happened with fairies then? Seems most every part of their mythos has been thrown out the window at some point.

Small? Sometimes.
Good? Now, but not before.
Evil? Once usually, now not usually.
Obsessed with rice counting? For a while there.
Like kids? For dinner or to play with? Both and neither.
Pretty? Sometimes.

All they really seem to have is "magic" which is redefined everytime the buggers are brought up so that's not exactly a rock solid definition.
 

Something Amyss

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Torkuda said:
In the years following Twilight many people have started arguing about what are the essential elements of the vampire mythos. Before it was thought that, since vampires don?t exist, we can pretty much declare that they are whatever we want them to be.
No. No no no no no.

This has existed longer than I've been alive. The reason you see it now is questionable, but if I were to bet it's because of the specific popularity of Twilight with a certain portion of society. You might as well say that teen heartthrobs were uncontroversial before Bieber, or that pop music was uncontroversial before Miley twerked. Because they're equally bad examples.

Hell, Anne Rice was the butt of thousands of jokes, as were her followers, for this perceived deal of turning vampires into woobies. I say perceived because I couldn't get far enough into her shit writing to pick up any real patterns. Maybe people are right, maybe people are just bitching because she's popular tripe. Kind of like Twilight.

Vampires are more controversial when they're big business. And now, sharkskin vampires with weird hair are big business. So they're a target. If the internet was around when Nosferatu was released, I'd be shocked if I didn't see a bunch of shots about how REAL vampires don't burst into flames in the sun.

As far as your sci-fi explanation, go for it. I'm not big on sci-fi vampires, but they won't be more mocked now than they were before Meyers. You can call them vampires, despite any real ties to the vampire mythos, if you really want. It's probably best not to, but whatever. You can decide that vampires are a race of peaceful aliens from the planet Kozar who are completely unlike traditional vampires if you want. You won't be the first. If you seek publication, even web publication, you will be mocked for it. Even if Meyers hadn't stepped on the scene, it was inevitable. But there's already "Our Vampires Are Different [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurVampiresAreDifferent]," and you're cranking it to 11.

Honestly? I'm more cool with Twilight vampires.

"Vampire" isn't so much a series of rules as a collection of folklore and ideas. Fast and loose can be played. But this? I think it goes beyond fast and loose.
 

Torkuda

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Please don't anyone get after me for the briefness of this post, but isn't "The Count" from Seaseme Street a Vampire? Doesn't he also only have that label because of his general appearance and behavior?

Weren't the Bounts from Bleach also called Vampires?
 

Something Amyss

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Torkuda said:
"Just because it's fictional doesn't mean you can slap it's name on anything."

You think not? What happened with fairies then? Seems most every part of their mythos has been thrown out the window at some point.

Small? Sometimes.
Good? Now, but not before.
Evil? Once usually, now not usually.
Obsessed with rice counting? For a while there.
Like kids? For dinner or to play with? Both and neither.
Pretty? Sometimes.

All they really seem to have is "magic" which is redefined everytime the buggers are brought up so that's not exactly a rock solid definition.
Most of those were never really codified, though. If you're going to argue everything about them has been "trown out" at some point, you might want to start with things like feeding on the living. Note I didn't say blood, because even blood wasn't always mandated in mythology.

Those vampires will, by and large, still have a ton of similarities. Can you remind me, again, of the similarities your vampires have to vampires?
 

Something Amyss

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Torkuda said:
Please don't anyone get after me for the briefness of this post, but isn't "The Count" from Seaseme Street a Vampire? Doesn't he also only have that label because of his general appearance and behavior?
He "only" has the label because he is heavily modeled after Bella Lugosi's Dracula. He even used to have vampiric powers, and there were hints he might consume blood. True, the current version has been bowdlerised, but that has nothing to do with why he has the name.

Is anyone surprised they took the bloodsucker suggestions out of a kids show?

Anyone?
 

Torkuda

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Torkuda said:
"Just because it's fictional doesn't mean you can slap it's name on anything."

You think not? What happened with fairies then? Seems most every part of their mythos has been thrown out the window at some point.

Small? Sometimes.
Good? Now, but not before.
Evil? Once usually, now not usually.
Obsessed with rice counting? For a while there.
Like kids? For dinner or to play with? Both and neither.
Pretty? Sometimes.

All they really seem to have is "magic" which is redefined everytime the buggers are brought up so that's not exactly a rock solid definition.
Most of those were never really codified, though. If you're going to argue everything about them has been "trown out" at some point, you might want to start with things like feeding on the living. Note I didn't say blood, because even blood wasn't always mandated in mythology.

Those vampires will, by and large, still have a ton of similarities. Can you remind me, again, of the similarities your vampires have to vampires?
Immortality, general invincibility, an ability to hypnotize women, the ability to morph into creatures with wings and fangs, super strength and speed, an over all confidence that comes with age, a general phobia surrounding them from the populace in story, originating from Europe where the name vampire itself originated as well as being predominately English, they live predominately under ground and surface mostly at night, they're a personification of the modern definition of evil, the ability to feed on humans though they are not required to...

But other than that, of course not, there are no commonalities between my creations and other vampire myths.
 

Torkuda

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Elias Islas Rodriguez said:
Sci-fi Vampires??? PLEASE NO.... You better invent something completely new that has the vampire traits you want but dont paste the term "vampire" over it...
Think on the example of the Walking Dead and how their characters never refer to the walkers as zombies...
Again, the reason they're called "vampires" in story is because of a cover up. No one is supposed to know these things are real.
 

kailus13

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Torkuda said:
"Just because it's fictional doesn't mean you can slap it's name on anything."

You think not? What happened with fairies then? Seems most every part of their mythos has been thrown out the window at some point.

Small? Sometimes.
Good? Now, but not before.
Evil? Once usually, now not usually.
Obsessed with rice counting? For a while there.
Like kids? For dinner or to play with? Both and neither.
Pretty? Sometimes.

All they really seem to have is "magic" which is redefined everytime the buggers are brought up so that's not exactly a rock solid definition.
I thought rice counting was vampires. Having an extreme form of OCD meant that they had to count all the rice grains and would still be counting by the time the sun came up, killing them.

As for fairies, there's never really been a consensus on what they're about.
 

Torkuda

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kailus13 said:
Torkuda said:
"Just because it's fictional doesn't mean you can slap it's name on anything."

You think not? What happened with fairies then? Seems most every part of their mythos has been thrown out the window at some point.

Small? Sometimes.
Good? Now, but not before.
Evil? Once usually, now not usually.
Obsessed with rice counting? For a while there.
Like kids? For dinner or to play with? Both and neither.
Pretty? Sometimes.

All they really seem to have is "magic" which is redefined everytime the buggers are brought up so that's not exactly a rock solid definition.
I thought rice counting was vampires. Having an extreme form of OCD meant that they had to count all the rice grains and would still be counting by the time the sun came up, killing them.

As for fairies, there's never really been a consensus on what they're about.
No, there was a rice counting thing for fairies too.
 
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Well, given that the oldest vampire myth I know of is the Egyptian one.... That vampires were the spirits of the ignored dead (those not receiving honorifics/sacrifices from their living relatives) that returned as incorporeal clouds that went around eating feces and drinking piss to retain their strength and identity....I'm going to say that vampires are whatever the current generation of culture say they are.

There is no "codified" concept of what a vampire is, only the cultural expectations of what they should be which varies tremendously from generation to generation.
 

Therumancer

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Torkuda said:
Despite knowing that it?s incredibly silly, this is a subject that interests me. In the years following Twilight many people have started arguing about what are the essential elements of the vampire mythos. Before it was thought that, since vampires don?t exist, we can pretty much declare that they are whatever we want them to be. However in recent years people have started to insist that this is not so.

Personally I have had experiences with this. Perhaps that should be a secondary to this subject. Is this an acceptable vampire mythos for a sci-fi series:

Created in the 1500s by a race of aliens wanting to harvest humans as food, the vampires were humans with dragon DNA injected into them. The dragon DNA was supposed to make them more powerful and more compliant, as dragons were reptiles and therefore far less psychologically independent. At first the vampires served their alien overlords and started gathering human children for them to feast on. However over time reptilian mechanical psychology began to battle human emotional psychology. The more passionate or fierce the emotion the better chance it had of surviving as the two natures battled and eventually, the vampires became either cold blooded killers, or hyper idealists, in both cases becoming monstrous. The vampires are sentient and nothing about them requires them to be ?evil?, they just have issues with anything even resembling subtlety.
The vampires have healing powers, but no need to drink blood. They have super strength and speed but no fear of sunlight. They?re often ferocious killers, but generally have no interest in romancing boring humans even if they are into romance. They?re nigh immortal, but can be killed by any natural means that can?t be countered by their very considerable healing powers. Finally, they can morph into completely feral winged monstrosities.
(In my series of course, the ?vampires? are not the original ?vampires?. They have just come to be called that as part of an elaborate cover up for mutants living among us.)

I?ve been given plenty of hate on this and even those who don?t hate the story told me this should be probably a werewolf myth. Honestly, I never thought it mattered. When Lord Maelstrom kidnaps a human child in one of my stories, drains his blood and forces it through the pluming of his girlfriend?s house while dumping the body in the tub? I figured that was bringing horror back to the mythos. Folks have agreed that this is scary, but just not vampires. Thoughts?
Well, at the end of the day you wind up with a lot of people who like things a certain way, typically going back to the conventions started by authors like Anne Rice and PN Elrod. There is concern among that crowd that if people tinker with the concepts too much another fad might get started, and they will miss out on the formula writing they have come to love. It should be noted that another big contributor to this, is White Wolf's "Vampire the Masquerade" which was pretty much a well acknowleged rip-off of Anne Rice's work, early on it was news (on forums like the old FidoRPG Echo before the current WWW was in such heavy use) that Anne Rice would up giving White Wolf permission to use her stuff. Something that apparently came up briefly during the whole argument about whether White Wolf was being ripped off by the "Underworld" movies and the way they portrayed Vampires, as much as I loathe White Wolf I think they should have won, but on the merits that the story "For Love Of Monsters" (which they do own) was pretty much "Underworld" rather than due to the portrayal of Vampires on it's own. During this in some quarters it was hinted that White Wolf didn't actually try too hard, because they were mostly fulfilling a legal obligation to defend the IP aggressively since being allowed to rip them off could be seen as allowing Anne Rice's work to be ripped off, meaning she could potentially sue White Wolf for not trying to defend the IP if she really wanted to... in short a giant mess... that now that I've rambled had little to do with the point of this discussion.


At any rate, beyond a certain point you can only change an established concept so much before it becomes something else entirely. You can't just slap a label like "Vampire" on something and say it's okay because actual Vampires do not exist. That said I'd argue that the basic requirements for a Vampire are 1. Drinking Blood to survive, and 2. Being Undead. Beyond that it's pretty much fair game. The problem I'd have with your particular story is that your "Vampires" are not undead. It's important to note that one of the uncanny things about Vampires that helps keep them popular is that most cultures, including those who never had contact with each other, share myths and legends that basically amount to walking corpses coming back and specifically drinking blood.

I'd add a conditional #3 to that which gets touchy, that Vampires must have an occult origin rooted in darkness. I say this because one common threat to vampire myths is the Vampires being defeated or stood off by holy men, shamans, and/or religious iconography, although this can vary from culture to culture. The popular "Cross" is the symbol of the mainstream, western, Christian religion, but in China for example there have been stories about Vampires killed by bludgeoning them to death with a golden Buddha statue, and apparently ones about Aboriginals, Native Americans, and others having their own holy men chase them off or destroy them. Typically religious iconography and faith is the most reliable form of "Kryptonite" being more universal than even things like Sunlight. I say this is conditional because when doing a Vampire story, especially one that happens globally, you typically wind up needing to decide on the weaknesses of the Vampire, and having it be "anything viewed as holy" gets to be too much of a problem since anything you can think of is probably venerated by someone. As a result you wind up having to basically decide what the "true" religion is, and that can slot people off, which is why a lot of creators have moved away from it, or tried weakly to make the weakness simply be faith rather than any particular power behind it, though that raises questions as to why that works, and brings up the ridiculous vision of some Schtizo in an Asylum defeating Vampires with Breakfast Cereal if he really believes god talks to him through the sound his Rice Crispies make or whatever.

The book "The Keep" (which had a movie based on it) is one of the few sources that had the guts to touch on point #3. It features an apparent "Vampire" unleashed by Nazis in an old keep they are occupying to hold a road, the keep having oddly stylized crosses placed all through it. A jewish occultist they have prisoner who is trying to work out the problems has a crisis of faith when he sees that the cross has power over him, since to him that's a sign that Jesus was apparently real, and it means the Jews missed the boat and didn't recognize or acknowledge their own savior. Of course the twist to the story is that it's not a Vampire, and the "Cross" is odd because it's actually depicting the hilt of a sword. The Vampire is actually a semi-immortal sorcerer, who was imprisoned by a knight who was immortal as long as the sorcerer lived, who used his magic sword to imprison him instead of finishing the job so he wouldn't have to die. The finale is when the hero comes back for the finale, takes responsibility for his duty, reassembles the hilt and the blade, and strikes down the bad guy, fulfilling his duty. Kind of irrelevant, but it illustrates the role of religion in a vampire story, and the potential problems it represents... that story having done it rather cleverly. It should also be noted that the book at least is loosely connected to The Cthulhu mythos as they drop the Necronomicon in there.


At any rate, there you go, there are three, or two for the politically correct, requirements for something to be rightfully called an actual Vampire. Remember it's based on a set of myths and legends, not something that was created overnight for pop culture. Once you diverge from these basic points your away from the legends, and it becomes like saying there are giant bunny rabbits that are actually the dragons of myth. Once you get away from the "Really big, ferocious lizard" it's not a Dragon anymore. That's just how the myths and legends that defined the concept are.
 

DoPo

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Honestly? I'm more cool with Twilight vampires.
And the funny thing is that the Twilight vampires are closer to Dracula than a lot other versions. I find the claim that they are "not vampires" a bit silly at best and...well, a lot silly at worse.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Most of those were never really codified, though. If you're going to argue everything about them has been "trown out" at some point, you might want to start with things like feeding on the living. Note I didn't say blood, because even blood wasn't always mandated in mythology.
Indeed, the only binding requirement between...well, most vampires is that they feed on the living. If I were to expand on it, it's going to be "feeding on some essence of the living" - as indeed blood is not a requirement - they can drink blood (drawing life from it), or stealing the breath of mortals (probably along with their life and/or soul), or even their emotions or other similarly more esoteric representations of life. Heck, some vampires aren't even human but still feed on them. It's very rare they outright eat people (which the "feed" doesn't rule out) - the creatures that do would probably be something different (ghouls, corpse eaters, werewolves among other beings).

If we were to expand it to the second most common trait, it's going to be "tied to the night". This has its root in the mythos and it's often the case that a lot of "evil" or at least "unnatural" beings are also tied to the night. Whether it's because the sun weakens/harms them, or because the day itself is antithetic to their existence, or simply because they are nocturnal, etc, a lot of mythos have the "mystic" factor being aligned with the night. Might have something to do with darkness and the association that has with secret (and the light, represented as the sun or the day could be associated with knowledge or more loosely with what normal people can know and see). Still as many as mythical creatures (and reasons why they are mythical) are, so do vampires often have a variety of reasons why they are tied to the night. Most recently has the "sun kills them" idea dominated but other than that they can be weakened in day, or not affected but preferring the night for a number of reasons (it's easier to hunt, or they are nocturnal, or they only come out then, etc).

I can go on but the broadness of the traits grows exponentially after these two.
 

runic knight

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one thing I don't see a lot of talk on in this subject is the idea of the word vampire in our language. Why are you using the word "vampire" in the first place? Obviously it is a word with roughly defined physical traits, true, but there is usually a reason why the author uses the word. It brings with it emotional reaction by association with the understanding of the collective culture. It is like, say, zombies, where they are always associated with mindless, undead and contamination. Even the Twilight variety of vamp used the term because of this, using vague physical traits shared (bloodlust, "weakness" to sunlight, enhanced physical abilities and immortality) and the common perception of vampires being associated with darkness, danger and evil to fit the theme of the story. Not well mind you, the vampires were watered down quite a bit and the story and writing utter shit, but they were used to try to seem dangerous and evil and cursed and because of that tortured, all aspects tied to vampires in our current collective understanding. Vampires seemed to have been chosen to fit the theme.

The creatures you describe... why do you call them vampires? Or to better word it, what makes them vampires as opposed to any other sort of creature out there that also shares similar physical traits. Hell, I'd argue your creatures are more closely related to werewolves for being part animal and being able to transform, and not needing blood but being animalistic killers. So, why would you call them vampires if they don't fit the physical description, and seem contrary to a themeatic one? Is it for no other reason then to be contrary because you see twilight as being contrary by shedding or changing common physical traits?
 

Torkuda

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Again, I'll highlight the things about my vampires that ARE common to the vampire mythos:

Immortality, general invincibility, an ability to hypnotize women, the ability to morph into creatures with wings and fangs, super strength and speed, an over all confidence that comes with age, a general phobia surrounding them from the populace in story, originating from Europe where the name vampire itself originated as well as being predominately English, they live predominately under ground and surface mostly at night, they're a personification of the modern definition of evil, the ability to feed on humans though they are not required to...

Night creatures: check
Evil: check
Immortal: check
Feed on the living: they can
From Europe where the current myth is from: check
Origin with religious connotations: ya got me there
Undead: nope
Generally look like vampires: check

So actually, they sound like a fair approximation, as fair as a fictional rewrite can go. After all, after a while, if you just copy the ideas of others, it's not your idea any more is it?

Again though, what about the Bounts in Bleach?
 

Torkuda

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runic knight said:
one thing I don't see a lot of talk on in this subject is the idea of the word vampire in our language. Why are you using the word "vampire" in the first place? Obviously it is a word with roughly defined physical traits, true, but there is usually a reason why the author uses the word. It brings with it emotional reaction by association with the understanding of the collective culture. It is like, say, zombies, where they are always associated with mindless, undead and contamination. Even the Twilight variety of vamp used the term because of this, using vague physical traits shared (bloodlust, "weakness" to sunlight, enhanced physical abilities and immortality) and the common perception of vampires being associated with darkness, danger and evil to fit the theme of the story. Not well mind you, the vampires were watered down quite a bit, but they were used to try to seem dangerous and evil and cursed and because of that tortured, all aspects tied to vampires in our current collective understanding.

The creatures you describe... why do you call them vampires? Or to better word it, what makes them vampires as opposed to any other sort of creature out there that also shares similar physical traits. Hell, I'd argue your creatures are more closely related to werewolves for being part animal and being able to transform, and not needing blood but being animalistic killers. So, why would you call them vampires if they don't fit the physical description, and seem contrary to a themeatic one? Is it for no other reason then to be contrary because you see twilight as being contrary by shedding or changing common physical traits?
Because they look like vampires and share several traits and the name is being used as a cover up so those that know about them can talk about them in everyday conversation without arousing suspicion. When someone over hears them talking about vampires, because vampires are a known and popular myth, they pass it off as nonsense, even if they do get a sense the characters are being serious.