What We Talk About When We Talk About Cosby

Steve the Pocket

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I don't know where Bob is coming from about Cosby being protected from mockery; the only exposure I've had to anything connected to him in the decade or so that he's been out of the spotlight were the episodes of The Simpsons and Family Guy that made fun of his rants about black culture and being out-of-touch with society.

"YASEE, THE KIDS THESE DAYS, THEY LISTEN TO THE RAP MUSIC, WHICH GIVES THEM THE BRAIN DAMAGE! ZIP-ZOP ZOOBIDEE BOP! ...POKEYMAN?!! WITH THE POKEY AND THE MAN AND THE THING WITH THE GUY COMES OUT OF THE THING..."

As far as I can tell, the man has been fair game for some time now and I'm kind of surprised this didn't break sooner.

ProtoChimp said:
That said, alot, and oh BOY do I mean alot of people are being wrongly convicted of rape. It used to be real victims would be insulted for having the gall to say such things about celebrities. Now however that these convictions are being taken seriously, a lot of people are pretending they were raped for lawsuit money.
[citation needed
 

Ark of the Covetor

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piscian said:
This is not to say he didn't do anything but it's impossible he could be this boogieman he's being made out as and yet never been caught.
Jimmy Savile, look it up. The man abused dozens of children over a period of decades, it was known about at the time by people in the media, politics, and the police yet it was repeatedly covered up and none of the allegations made within his lifetime were allowed to get anywhere near the courts. Only after the vile old shit finally died was the story allowed to come out, and frankly I doubt it would have been allowed out even then if not for the fact that parts of the BBC were involved in covering up his behaviour and a lot of the modern media and political establishment love any story that damages the BBC.

People assume celebrity makes it more likely your improprieties will be discovered, but it depends entirely on who makes the discoveries, if the wrong people find out a celebrity is a paedo or a rapist they'll happily cover it up to protect their own reputation or that of their organisation if said celebrity was involved with them, other people will indulge in victim blaming because of their own archaic attitudes towards rape, others still will react as you have and simply refuse to believe it's true and so cover it up to protect a person they consider as having been wrongfully and maliciously accused. People also forget that a lot of this alleged behaviour happened years ago, in the days before literally almost everybody carries a high resolution camera in their pocket everywhere they go, and the balance of power between tabloid media and "household name" popular celebrities was different.

Schadrach said:
Supahewok said:
OT: What even is this. The man, thus far, is guilty of nothing. This article feels... dirty. Gross. Like taking a picture of a random dude, putting it on posters, and leaving them up everywhere saying THIS MAN COULD RAPE YOU.
There have been a couple of cases of essentially that happening on college campuses. One listed every male-sounding student name as a "potential rapist" at University of Maryland, Oberlin had a "Rapist of the Month" poster by Take Back the Night, at Brown in 1990 and Columbia this year "Rapist Lists" were written on bathroom walls.
While I don't condone this kind of behaviour...I can understand why it happens. [http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119] College rapists are almost never punished even if caught and, in a lot of places, a victim will have to go up against an administration dismissive of rape or keen to cover up the scale of the problem, plus large numbers of their fellow students who will see them as a whiny "regretful slut" or accuse them of disloyalty, on top of the normal issues with police that don't take rape seriously.

Everyone should be innocent until proven guilty, and I have serious issues with people who just assume a man is a rapist/paedophile simply because they've been accused of it - but you can't pretend these issues exist in a vacuum, the reality is that regardless of what people say, when the times comes a LOT of people are still dismissive of rape victims, and even in the few cases where the victim is taken seriously, does find officials willing to fight on their behalf, and there is physical evidence of the rape, even after they go through a court case in which THEY will often be put on trial moreso than the rapist, both the defence team and the media accusing them of being a drunken promiscuous slut and any number of other things, even then many rapists will walk away without being convicted.
 

medv4380

The Crazy One
Feb 26, 2010
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Nixou said:
Ad Populum Fallacy. Just because a lot of people believe something to be true doesn't make it true.

It's not "a lot of people believe something and may be wrong": it's "A lot of people say «This guy raped ME»" the only way for all of them to be wrong is for all of them to be either liars or insane, and given how rare false accusations of rape are, the chances that so many liars and lunatics spontaneously ganged up on one single individual is so infinitely small as to be irrelevant.

***

You should look up the McMartin Preschool Trial

The McMartins were not powerful millionaires noticed after browbeating dozens of people into silence over a period of several decades before countless dupes bamboozled by fictional characters they played on TV started to play internet apologist.
The McMartins were convicted of molesting children in the name of Satan. Problem was the accusers were suffering from Mass Hysteria. They believed that they were raped in the name of the devil. It's a pretty common problem with Mass Hysteria, and I would expect a television personality to get dragged into a case of mass hysteria more than the nobody McMartins since Mass Hysteria is actually contagious though Media.
 

bjj hero

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MovieBob said:
What We Talk About When We Talk About Cosby

Separating the television personality from the real life figure is a challenge with a scandal like this one.

Read Full Article
You always seem to come down on the side of your celebrities in America. I guess Americans just love a winner.

Look at the allegations around R-Kelly. Michael Jacksons defence was along the the lines of "I only plied other peoples children with alcohol, nothing more. OJ Simpson walked. Look at how celebs fawn over Roman Polanski and and Woody Allen after some very nasty allegations. I could go on. This is nothing new, I was more shocked this has gained some traction with Cosby.

Then there are people like uk presenter John Lesley who was never charged with anything but never worked again. Also, what sort of a system lets you settle out of court for a rape allegation? I remember something about truth, something and the American way but the middle bit escapes me.
 

jbucksnb

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Ark of the Covetor said:
While I don't condone this kind of behaviour...I can understand why it happens. [http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119] College rapists are almost never punished even if caught and, in a lot of places, a victim will have to go up against an administration dismissive of rape or keen to cover up the scale of the problem, plus large numbers of their fellow students who will see them as a whiny "regretful slut" or accuse them of disloyalty, on top of the normal issues with police that don't take rape seriously.
I mainly lurk here, but I had to sign in to ask something. Rape is a crime, something that should be reported to the proper authorities. School administrators aren't proper authorities for this. I understand it's difficult to go to the police, but that's what the situation is for. Taking a rape case to a college disciplinary committee is frightening and demeans actual sexual assault. If the guy's actually guilty of rape, he shouldn't just face discipline from the school. It should be a legal matter. But if he's not, then there's no legal recourse to fight what a closed-room committee says (my school, for example, doesn't allow lawyers in on hearings).
 

Souplex

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Jul 29, 2008
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MovieBlob said:
(or however close a Z-list internet fixture like myself can get)
Bob, we need to talk about this. You're one of the bigger draws on one of the bigger sites on the InterWebs. You're A-list.
I know it's not as funny to be A-list, but you should just accept it already.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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Mar 28, 2010
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jbucksnb said:
Ark of the Covetor said:
While I don't condone this kind of behaviour...I can understand why it happens. [http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119] College rapists are almost never punished even if caught and, in a lot of places, a victim will have to go up against an administration dismissive of rape or keen to cover up the scale of the problem, plus large numbers of their fellow students who will see them as a whiny "regretful slut" or accuse them of disloyalty, on top of the normal issues with police that don't take rape seriously.
I mainly lurk here, but I had to sign in to ask something. Rape is a crime, something that should be reported to the proper authorities. School administrators aren't proper authorities for this. I understand it's difficult to go to the police, but that's what the situation is for. Taking a rape case to a college disciplinary committee is frightening and demeans actual sexual assault. If the guy's actually guilty of rape, he shouldn't just face discipline from the school. It should be a legal matter. But if he's not, then there's no legal recourse to fight what a closed-room committee says (my school, for example, doesn't allow lawyers in on hearings).
The proper authorities may be even more dismissive though, and considering the campus authorities have access to anywhere on the premises of the school, they actually may have an easier time investigating than the police.

medv4380 said:
Until there is a trial, and conviction based on the evidence this is little more than mass hysteria. One person made a claim in 2005, and a whole bunch of women, who happen to be more susceptible to mass hysteria, came out with an identical claim. Had their claims had a sense of natural variance, been made in chronological order, or had evidence then I'd be more inclined believe them.
Yes, blame it on the hysterical womenfolk. We can't assume that one guy is a horrible person, instead we must assume numerous women are mentally unbalanced, based on just as little fucking evidence. We don't need to question them or anything, we can just assume that they are all bonkers because this case vaguely resembles another one that happened, while the same logic cannot be used to condemn Cosby based on the similarities between this case and Saville. Consistency is the least to ask when you start demanding that the court of public opinion follow the rules of innocence until proven guilty.
Supahewok said:
This is sleazy journalism guys.
Good thing it's an opinion column then.
 

medv4380

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Feb 26, 2010
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Revnak said:
Yes, blame it on the hysterical womenfolk. We can't assume that one guy is a horrible person, instead we must assume numerous women are mentally unbalanced, based on just as little *** evidence. We don't need to question them or anything, we can just assume that they are all bonkers because this case vaguely resembles another one that happened, while the same logic cannot be used to condemn Cosby based on the similarities between this case and Saville. Consistency is the least to ask when you start demanding that the court of public opinion follow the rules of innocence until proven guilty.
Without a legal trial, and evidence to examine I will most definitely blame the hysteria. How about the similarities between this and the McMartins?
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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medv4380 said:
Revnak said:
Yes, blame it on the hysterical womenfolk. We can't assume that one guy is a horrible person, instead we must assume numerous women are mentally unbalanced, based on just as little *** evidence. We don't need to question them or anything, we can just assume that they are all bonkers because this case vaguely resembles another one that happened, while the same logic cannot be used to condemn Cosby based on the similarities between this case and Saville. Consistency is the least to ask when you start demanding that the court of public opinion follow the rules of innocence until proven guilty.
Without a legal trial, and evidence to examine I will most definitely blame the hysteria. How about the similarities between this and the McMartins?
The similarities between this case and the McMartins are just as valid as a basis for condemning a bunch of random women as the similarities between this case and the Saville case.

So tell me, why are you willing to condemn two dozen women in the court of public opinion on insubstantial evidence but not Cosby?
 

castlewise

Lord Fancypants
Jul 18, 2010
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Souplex said:
MovieBlob said:
(or however close a Z-list internet fixture like myself can get)
Bob, we need to talk about this. You're one of the bigger draws on one of the bigger sites on the InterWebs. You're A-list.
I know it's not as funny to be A-list, but you should just accept it already.
MovieBob is a major contributor at a successful (?) gaming site. Z list is pretty accurate. For comparison http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/escapistmagazine.com and http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/cnn.com
 

Alcaste

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cpukill said:
Alcaste said:
cpukill said:
Should we just start referring to MovieBob as the Patricia Hernandez of the Escapist? Because all this (alleged) rape talk screams click-bait sensationalism.
I bet everything regarding sensitive, adult topics is "click-bait sensationalism" to you, isn't it? Things like this need to be discussed, not squelched just because it makes you uncomfortable.
Snip
Speaking of bait, looks like I fell for it. I'm not going to apologize for what I said, because it's still relevant, but you have my condolences over the hardships that you've had to endure. Please, don't bait people into your trap to try to make them feel bad with hypocrisy. It won't work.
 

Aitamen

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Personally, there are so very few people worthy of actual praise (offhand I can think of Steve Mann, Gremlin, and Mr. Rogers, with a smattering after that), that this isn't really surprising. I don't see a problem with condemning the person and their work. Whatever benefit Cosby had is already in the books, and that has its own meaning. Today, we can gladly tear it apart for it's harm that it's doing, and for the man himself if it's accurate.

In an age when supporting a person's work frequently means supporting the person, with traffic and pageviews and the like being worth something, we should be doing this a lot more frequently. Like... I can't stand that people watch Lindsey Stirling's stuff, given her connections to LDS and other anti-LGBT groups. I don't know why the idea of "judge art, not artists!" is a thing, given that it's not really possible to do so from a monetary sense, and the core of what we *should* be doing is educating ourselves about products and fighting against bullshit with our wallets...

(I'm not sure about Cosby's story, and whatever work he did was well enough outside my view that I've never seen him as anything other than an obnoxious twat unfamiliar with modern tech and morals, so I'm commenting on the general view, not really on him specifically, as I don't know the good he did to give a valid view of both sides).
 

Karadalis

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I like how theres an (alleged) put infront of the accused name.. but no (alleged) infront of the victim, infact not a much is talked about the "alleged" victims kept for something among the lines of "some women in the past accused him of rape and nothing came of it, surely because of the patriarchy". It seems that the new code of cunduct is being followed with gnashed teeth.

Innocent until prooven guilty. And seeing that some of these women accusing bill cosby where all to ready to drop their fingers pointing at him when he threw money at them makes this whole thing seem rather suspicious.
 

Darth_Payn

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Soooooooo, what was Bob's point in all this? Is he defending or condemning Cosby here?
You gotta admit, it is suspicious that so many women came out of the woodwork to make these claims of something 20+ years ago. I will not jump on board the "GUILTY!" bandwagon until a verdict is rendered. Because in this country, being innocent until proven guilty, like Judge Dredd, is THE LAW.
 

medv4380

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Feb 26, 2010
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Revnak said:
medv4380 said:
Revnak said:
Yes, blame it on the hysterical womenfolk. We can't assume that one guy is a horrible person, instead we must assume numerous women are mentally unbalanced, based on just as little *** evidence. We don't need to question them or anything, we can just assume that they are all bonkers because this case vaguely resembles another one that happened, while the same logic cannot be used to condemn Cosby based on the similarities between this case and Saville. Consistency is the least to ask when you start demanding that the court of public opinion follow the rules of innocence until proven guilty.
Without a legal trial, and evidence to examine I will most definitely blame the hysteria. How about the similarities between this and the McMartins?
The similarities between this case and the McMartins are just as valid as a basis for condemning a bunch of random women as the similarities between this case and the Saville case.

So tell me, why are you willing to condemn two dozen women in the court of public opinion on insubstantial evidence but not Cosby?
Cosby is the accused, and under the US Justice system he is innocent until proven guilty. That means that the burden of proof lies with his accusers, and all doubt unless they can prove otherwise. If they could prove otherwise they would have a court case, and ALL doubt lies with the accusers of any crime.
 

totheendofsin

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Jul 31, 2009
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perhaps is the lawyers blood in me, but I'm not comfortable with how crimes, especially crimes as horrible as rape, are often tried in the court of public opinion rather than an actual courtroom. Because public opinion is impossible to sway one way or the other, once they've decided whether you're guilty or innocent that's it.

At the same time though I can sympathize with those who are making the allegations, as I understand it it's really difficult to convict someone of rape, doubly so if that people has a significant amount of money like Cosby, so it's tempting to simply go to the public and try to ruin their reputation rather than spend a ton of money and not even have a guarantee that the person will be punished.

As for if I think he did it or not, well innocent until proven guilty of course but I do think it's plausible he raped some, if not all of the women, however I feel it's equally plausible that some of the women are simply making up allegations for 15 minutes of fame and the possibility that Cosby will pay them to stop talking about it.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

Fixed by "Monday"
Mar 28, 2010
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medv4380 said:
Revnak said:
medv4380 said:
Revnak said:
Yes, blame it on the hysterical womenfolk. We can't assume that one guy is a horrible person, instead we must assume numerous women are mentally unbalanced, based on just as little *** evidence. We don't need to question them or anything, we can just assume that they are all bonkers because this case vaguely resembles another one that happened, while the same logic cannot be used to condemn Cosby based on the similarities between this case and Saville. Consistency is the least to ask when you start demanding that the court of public opinion follow the rules of innocence until proven guilty.
Without a legal trial, and evidence to examine I will most definitely blame the hysteria. How about the similarities between this and the McMartins?
The similarities between this case and the McMartins are just as valid as a basis for condemning a bunch of random women as the similarities between this case and the Saville case.

So tell me, why are you willing to condemn two dozen women in the court of public opinion on insubstantial evidence but not Cosby?
Cosby is the accused, and under the US Justice system he is innocent until proven guilty. That means that the burden of proof lies with his accusers, and all doubt unless they can prove otherwise. If they could prove otherwise they would have a court case, and ALL doubt lies with the accusers of any crime.
You are not doubting them. You are accusing them of being hysterical. There is a substantial difference. Also, this is not a court of law, it is the court of public opinion.
 

Kameburger

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Apr 7, 2012
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You know what, I think we need to stop publicly lynching everyone before there is even a trial? I understand that we have a tendency to side with the accuser as often it sends a terrible message to side with someone who is being accused of something as unforgivable as rape, but we are seriously hitting a stage in our society where our mob mentality is allowed to take over in a matter of seconds. And when this mob rule takes over, we defend it because we are meant to. We sit in a world where once we establish a moral high ground, no one cares about the system or the facts. They enshrine their first impression, and then lash out like corned raccoon's when challenged.

Philosophically there is a reason that our legal system emphasizes that the burden of proof is on the accuser. Meaning that someone is innocent until proven guilty. The philosophical reason is precisely because simply accusing people is enough to inflict a lot of damage onto someone, and it gives a strong outlet for those who wish to, to take advantage of the system.

I am not saying Rape claims are what ever % true or false, I'm not even really talking about rape. But Michael Jackson was accused the same way and nothing was ever proven, and now whether its true or not his memory will be forever tarnished by the accusations made against him. With Cosby, there has been no evidence, and no trial, and we run this risk of the same thing happening over and over and over again. If you are going to publicly shame someone for what ever reason, back it up.

If you have been wronged and the system isn't able to protect you because there is no proof, my heart bleeds for you, but at the same time, I don't think out legal system is useful if being accused is all it takes to effectively exile someone from normal society. Public sentiment does little to impact the facts of a case. Ever.
 

Baresark

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This whole thing makes me uncomfortable. I see articles like this on the reg these days and they seemingly seek a triumph of emotion over reason. We all want to see criminals of all kinds pay their dues. I would love to see every rapist thrown in jail and the key thrown away. As a society, we cannot work off of people's words alone. If you do not go to the police immediately after the event or to a doctor to get checked, it's a real tragedy and it sucks, but words are not enough. In a society built on reason, witch hunts cannot be condoned. I would love to see Bill Cosby be shown to be guilty and thrown in jail more than anything.

Also, I can't help but think Bob is over-estimating the importance of Bill Cosby to "all of black society". To think that one man somehow speaks to and about a whole sector of society is bullshit. It's literally the ramblings of an over educated white guy about something he doesn't know anything about.
 

medv4380

The Crazy One
Feb 26, 2010
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Revnak said:
medv4380 said:
Revnak said:
medv4380 said:
Revnak said:
Yes, blame it on the hysterical womenfolk. We can't assume that one guy is a horrible person, instead we must assume numerous women are mentally unbalanced, based on just as little *** evidence. We don't need to question them or anything, we can just assume that they are all bonkers because this case vaguely resembles another one that happened, while the same logic cannot be used to condemn Cosby based on the similarities between this case and Saville. Consistency is the least to ask when you start demanding that the court of public opinion follow the rules of innocence until proven guilty.
Without a legal trial, and evidence to examine I will most definitely blame the hysteria. How about the similarities between this and the McMartins?
The similarities between this case and the McMartins are just as valid as a basis for condemning a bunch of random women as the similarities between this case and the Saville case.

So tell me, why are you willing to condemn two dozen women in the court of public opinion on insubstantial evidence but not Cosby?
Cosby is the accused, and under the US Justice system he is innocent until proven guilty. That means that the burden of proof lies with his accusers, and all doubt unless they can prove otherwise. If they could prove otherwise they would have a court case, and ALL doubt lies with the accusers of any crime.
You are not doubting them. You are accusing them of being hysterical. There is a substantial difference. Also, this is not a court of law, it is the court of public opinion.
Read the original post. I am claiming that taking a large number of claims as proof that the claim is true is because Mass Hysteria not hysteria can reasonably explain said phenomena. Accusations alone are not evidence nor are they proof of anything.

Also, the Court of Public opinion can be an immoral Inquisition like Italy used to be with guilty until proven innocent, or it can be the less immoral adversarial model with Innocent Until Proven Guilty. I oppose foolish models prone to witch hunts.