What would you want to happen to diminish income inequality in the USA

Tireseas

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5a) Dramatically reduce the cost of public college. A trend that started in the 1970s and accelerated in the '90s and 2000s was the cutting of state-level public assistance to major public universities which, when combined with federally-backed private (and later fully public) loans, created a spiral where colleges could charge virtually whatever they wanted and lose relatively few applicants because of it, with the bulk of the bearers of the debt being students. While the average student loan debt is relatively modest at $25-50,000, it balloons substantially for graduate school debt (I remember trying to buy a car and the guy came back saying they initially thought I had bought a house with my $190k in student loan debt). Capping tuition and room and board costs to a much lower rate and increasing state and federal funding to compensate would greatly diminish future debt burdens, giving more flexibility and spending power to future generations.

5b) Student Loan Reform. Simultaneously, you also have an issue with student loan repayment and forgiveness. The tax deduction for a student loan debt interest payment is $2,500.00. To give you an idea of what that looks like when applied, my student loan monthly payment (pre COVID-19 interest waiver) is approximately $1,250.00, which means a little more than 82% of my loan is paid out of pocket with no offset. Loan forgiveness, either in the partial model proposed by Warren or the complete model proposed by Sanders, ironically, would actually screw me over more in taxes because loan forgiveness is considered income (i.e. you gain the de facto benefits of the cash value of the remainder of your loan, so you gain the income on paper, which is immediately spent on that specific item of your loan balance). Loan forgiveness being treated as income for most items such as vehicles, houses, and most unsecured loans makes sense in that there is often a cash value that was directly received at the time of the loan, whether that be in the value of the good or a literal deposit in a bank. Education's value, on the other hand, is often more abstract and ethereal (though economists have quantified it in income terms) and not everyone benefits in the same way nor has necessarily the same income potential or goals as a result. Teachers are the prime example, where most need a graduate level of education but often can only get positions that do not pay adequately for their monthly loan payments. Similarly, lawyers and doctors are effectively forced to go where they can be afforded to be paid enough to cover their needs, which results in shortages of new professionals in rural areas that often have lower incomes and more urgent needs, as well as fewer slots for organizations trying to hire said professionals due to the salary needs in order to effectively recruit.

A long explanation to cover the complexities of the situation aside, the ideal situation would be to forgive most if not all student loans with an explicit provision that such forgiveness was not taxable income. Following that, any remaining loans should be available as fully tax deductible (interest and principle), which would encourage faster repayment and emphasize the government's interest in an educated populous.

5c) Federalize k12 public education and limit subsidies for private schools. The incredibly fractured public school system in the US has created serious inconsistencies in school's quality and resources, largely because the funding is often tied to property taxes, which means wealthier districts have more resources than poorer ones. More resources means more teachers with better working conditions and pay, better facilities, and often better outcomes (though home-life remains the primary determining factor in individual student outcomes). Federalizing k12 education, which would dramatically reduce administration costs (notably by running pay and benefits through existing federal bureaucracies), even out per-pupal and per-facility funding for more consistent funding across schools, and more evenly distribute personnel based on need rather than creating a bidding war between districts, can alleviate many of these issues. Funding for private schools should also be limited (not necessarily eliminated) as such institutions should be able to stand on their own to justify their tuition to their customers (parents) rather than rely on funds that could be better utilized within the existing public school system (the main exception being scholarships for low-income students).
 

Tireseas

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Part III

6) A return to Eisenhower-era tax rates. This would probably be the most dramatic and controversial change as almost every income group would see an increase in base tax liability (1958). This would dramatically reduce the post-tax income of the wealthiest, thereby reducing (though not eliminating) the benefits of a higher income. The good news is that the dramatic increase in funds would serve multiple purposes, specifically covering programs, grants, X-prizes, debt servicing, defense spending and more, allowing for the support systems that would accelerate effective income growth at the bottom end of the scale while slowing down income growth at the top end of the scale.

7) A 1-5% stock/commodity transaction tax. More a market stabilization tool combined with a revenue generation mechanism rather than a specific re-distributive method, this tax would essentially force trading algorithms to slow down the purchase and sale of stock by effectively creating a break even point that is later than the point of purchase. The more time a trader has to wait for the stock purchase to be profitable, the longer a stock needs to be held to generate a profit. This favors long-term stock purchases over short-term purchases in a way that could help reduce market volatility. This also means fewer downstream affects from crashes that tend to hit manufacturing and other areas more dominated by median and lower incomes.

8a) Universal Basic Income. I'm generally not a fan of UBI as a slogan largely because it tends to be a Rorschach-test for policy preferences (conservatives/libertarians tend to see it as an alternative to welfare, liberals/progressives tend to see it as an additional benefit), but when combined with other stabilization programs such as an expanded Medicaid and welfare, it serves a powerful bottom-line for income as well as a potential boon to businesses as it can justify reducing their respective wages to a less artificial cost if the UBI payments are large enough (if someone wants to work for $5/hr, that becomes a choice rather than a necessity). The exact amount and scale would likely need to be determined by economists to determine the ideal rate to maximize overall benefits, but $2,000 per individual per month would dramatically stabilize the poor and give them the opportunities to pursue potentially riskier endeavors such as entrepreneurship in a way that gives them an income floor.

8b) "The 18th Birthday Grant"/Baby Bonds. A bit of wishful thinking that got stuck in my head a few years ago and then actually got picked up as the headline policy of Senator Booker in his presidential run (with some modifications), the idea is a grant of approximate $50k/median yearly income to every kid turning 18 (the exact funding mechanism varies by the plan). The UK actually had a pilot program that was effectively and quietly killed by the newly elected Tory government right before the first beneficiaries would have received their benefits. While some versions of the program would limit what the funds could be used for, I'm inclined to actually have no restrictions once the money is given to the 18-year-old (though I would also include financial management and planning as a core curriculum in high school). The idea is that there are very very very few uses of the money that would be economically disadvantageous either to the individual or to the economy as a whole. It could be used for a down-payment on a house, fund a college education without the need for a loan, invest in the market, start a business, keep in savings for later, buy a car, or even just take a year without a job while living a middle-class life. Every dollar of that money would effectively give that 18-year-old dozens of paths to independence regardless of where they started as in most cases it would either be consumed in some form or another or saved/invested for later and it would provide a boost to local economies who would likely be the primary beneficiaries of the spending. Interestingly enough, ideas of this concept have existed for hundreds of years since the creation of the modern notion of private property, though it has rarely been enacted into law.
 
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meiam

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I specifically pointed out that these buildings stand unused and unoccupied for years. This is not a case of unavoidable logistics.

You're the one who brought up scarcity, not me. I'm merely pointing out that the country could address the shortfall of supply right now, if it wanted to: no need to build, only to repurpose.
You couldn't, the number just aren't there. There's very few buildings that stand unoccupied for years (for obvious reason, keeping building empty is very expensive). If the rent/house price were to greatly decrease a lot more people would move in city, we're talking a large share of most city suburb + plenty of people stuck failling city (plus people who would upgrade to larger house, people who currently are forced to share house with roommate but would rather be alone and so on). You don't fit potentially millions of people in the very few somehow empty but perfectly habitable building.
 

Silvanus

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You couldn't, the number just aren't there. There's very few buildings that stand unoccupied for years (for obvious reason, keeping building empty is very expensive).
It's about 24,000 commercial properties, coming to about 2,700 hectares, as well as about 22,000 residences, in the capital alone.

Keeping a building is expensive... if you have to pay rent, or licensing, or bills, etc. A large number of expenditures evaporate if a building is owned outright (rather than mortgaged or rented) and is sitting unused. And the owners are generally exceedingly rich people, so what expenditures there are (council tax, the barebones bills) don't present any noticeable issue for them.

I was once shown around a house when looking for a place to live. A house, mind, not a flat, and it had sat empty and unoccupied (I was told) for over a year already. When I saw it, I saw why: the garden had been used as a dumping-ground, & it was in dire need of upkeep.

The agent told me it could've been fixed up for less than 1,000 GBP. The owner would have made that back (and more) with one month's rent had they bothered to spend on the initial outlay. But... they just didn't. So, there it sits. The owner has the money to spend; renters are looking for places to live. But it takes some time and effort, and the owner is probably already making money hand-over-fist from a dozen other properties they didn't need to put any effort into at all. So why bother?


If the rent/house price were to greatly decrease a lot more people would move in city, we're talking a large share of most city suburb + plenty of people stuck failling city (plus people who would upgrade to larger house, people who currently are forced to share house with roommate but would rather be alone and so on). You don't fit potentially millions of people in the very few somehow empty but perfectly habitable building.
The homeless population in the UK is about 320,000 according to current estimates, not "potentially millions".

The maths adds up: we have all the resources to fix the problem already. No building required. What we don't have in this country is the political will to challenge people making shitloads of money through minimum effort.
 

meiam

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It's about 24,000 commercial properties, coming to about 2,700 hectares, as well as about 22,000 residences, in the capital alone.

Keeping a building is expensive... if you have to pay rent, or licensing, or bills, etc. A large number of expenditures evaporate if a building is owned outright (rather than mortgaged or rented) and is sitting unused. And the owners are generally exceedingly rich people, so what expenditures there are (council tax, the barebones bills) don't present any noticeable issue for them.

I was once shown around a house when looking for a place to live. A house, mind, not a flat, and it had sat empty and unoccupied (I was told) for over a year already. When I saw it, I saw why: the garden had been used as a dumping-ground, & it was in dire need of upkeep.

The agent told me it could've been fixed up for less than 1,000 GBP. The owner would have made that back (and more) with one month's rent had they bothered to spend on the initial outlay. But... they just didn't. So, there it sits. The owner has the money to spend; renters are looking for places to live. But it takes some time and effort, and the owner is probably already making money hand-over-fist from a dozen other properties they didn't need to put any effort into at all. So why bother?

The homeless population in the UK is about 320,000 according to current estimates, not "potentially millions".

The maths adds up: we have all the resources to fix the problem already. No building required. What we don't have in this country is the political will to challenge people making shitloads of money through minimum effort.
Again, homeless people don't matter, I never talked about them, it's mostly a different issue. Most homeless event that aren't related to mental illness are transient. The point isn't to lower housing price to allow homeless to find a home. The point is to lower the cost so that everybody who is already living in a house (ie almost everyone) can have more disposable income, and to allow people who cannot live where they'd like to do so (either severely reducing their commuting time or allowing time to work/study in a better environment). That way poor/middle class people would all be much richer and they'd be no need to reduce inequality.

Also commercial property and residential are very different things, it's much cheaper to build a warehouse than housing block for obvious reason. They're not even comparable (and plenty of area are zoned such that residential properties aren't allowed, more problem with regulation).
 

Silvanus

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Again, homeless people don't matter, I never talked about them, it's mostly a different issue.
You talked about home ownership, said that the available land was limited, and said that we needed to "build upward" to "squeeze more people in the same amount of space". Everything I've talked about is directly relevant to that.

Space is not limited by true scarcity, and there is no need to build upward (or even to build very much at all) to address the issue of land availability.

Most homeless event that aren't related to mental illness are transient. The point isn't to lower housing price to allow homeless to find a home. The point is to lower the cost so that everybody who is already living in a house (ie almost everyone) can have more disposable income, and to allow people who cannot live where they'd like to do so (either severely reducing their commuting time or allowing time to work/study in a better environment). That way poor/middle class people would all be much richer and they'd be no need to reduce inequality.
Once again, you're making assumptions that don't bear out: most homeless people are actually not transient; about 80% have been without shelter for 1 - 2 years.

The topic of the thread is how to reduce inequality. I find it very odd that anybody's approach would involve ignoring the most vulnerable and economically disadvantaged people in society; that flies in the face of the very purpose.

If society ignores the most disadvantaged, and makes no effort to improve the situation, then it entrenches inequality.

Also commercial property and residential are very different things, it's much cheaper to build a warehouse than housing block for obvious reason. They're not even comparable (and plenty of area are zoned such that residential properties aren't allowed, more problem with regulation).
I didn't compare them. I pointed out that there are tens of thousands of both types of property which stand unused and empty, which may be used. I even provided separate stats and sources for both commercial and residential locations rather than lumping them all together.

Even so, it's much cheaper to repurpose an existing building than to "build upwards".
 

meiam

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You talked about home ownership, said that the available land was limited, and said that we needed to "build upward" to "squeeze more people in the same amount of space". Everything I've talked about is directly relevant to that.

Space is not limited by true scarcity, and there is no need to build upward (or even to build very much at all) to address the issue of land availability.



Once again, you're making assumptions that don't bear out: most homeless people are actually not transient; about 80% have been without shelter for 1 - 2 years.

The topic of the thread is how to reduce inequality. I find it very odd that anybody's approach would involve ignoring the most vulnerable and economically disadvantaged people in society; that flies in the face of the very purpose.

If society ignores the most disadvantaged, and makes no effort to improve the situation, then it entrenches inequality.



I didn't compare them. I pointed out that there are tens of thousands of both types of property which stand unused and empty, which may be used. I even provided separate stats and sources for both commercial and residential locations rather than lumping them all together.

Even so, it's much cheaper to repurpose an existing building than to "build upwards".
You said there were 320 000 homeless people in the UK, the UK has a population of 66 millions! That's less than 0.5%, you could literally give all of them 80 000 euro a year and the statistic would barely reflect it, they're rounding error and you don't fix huge societal problem by worrying about rounding error. Between problems affecting 95% of the population and one affecting 0.5%, I think it's obvious which one should receive more attention, especially when helping the 95% will help some of the 0.5%. Because, yes, 1-2 year is transient, unless you believe human lifespan is 1-2 year, so eventually they'll move out of being homeless, at which point they'll need to rent/buy a house, which means the price of housing will become important.

Land availability is extremely scarce because the land in downtown London is not the same land as the one in the middle of nowhere, otherwise the price would be the same everywhere. People aren't stupid, they don't pay London house price because they don't know if they moved away it would be cheaper, they do so because it allow them to live the life they want to (usually related to them working in London). People become much richer when they live in large city, but they need to actually be able to do so, which is limited by the housing cost (ie supply).

Here's a breakdown of the typical budget of household in the UK (https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-uk-household-budget), you'll notice housing is #2 at 11%, but number 1 is transport, which is also related to housing (people who live far away from work and need to commute), together they make up 25%. By making housing much cheaper you'd lower both of these value and all the exatra money would be able to go elsewhere, greatly imporving people quality of life, which is the ultimate goal of reducing inequality, so even if that wouldn't reduce inequality (it would since easier access to properties would let people go from renting to owning house which would help them become richer) people would live better life.
 

Agema

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Here's a breakdown of the typical budget of household in the UK (https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-uk-household-budget)
There's a big problem using this sort of average: it doesn't reflect what are often huge differences in lifestyle according to income.

Rich people are likelier to work far from where they live and use expensive transport like (potentially expensive) cars. Poor people tend to work closer to where they live and are likelier to use public transport. Similarly, rich people are more likely to have bought a home and paid off the mortgage, whereas poor people tend to rent and - unless they make or inherit a lot more money at some point in the future - will pay accommodation costs until they die.

For instance, that suggests £289 p.m. accommodation for the "average" household. To give an idea what it's really like, I live in a fairly average price city and work in a poor city, and you'll be damn lucky to rent even a basic 2-bedroom flat/house in a low SES district in either city for less than £500 p.m. (A mortgage for an equivalent property would be more expensive). Meanwhile, monthly public transport for commuting needs would be about £50-60 p.m. p.p.

So, in short, I don't think that average is remotely representative of what most people's real world budget is.
 

meiam

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They're people. You are literally saying that their lives do not matter.
Everyone are people, that 0.5% are people and the other 99.5% are people. No one is more important than anybody else. Instead society should focus it's effort to better the live of as many people as possible, you know "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and all. If your house is infested with mold and also there's a few ant in the basement, you don't start by fixing the ants problem because it doesn't affect most of the house, you tackle the big problem first. Their life don't matter when weighted against the life of everyone.

There's a big problem using this sort of average: it doesn't reflect what are often huge differences in lifestyle according to income.

Rich people are likelier to work far from where they live and use expensive transport like (potentially expensive) cars. Poor people tend to work closer to where they live and are likelier to use public transport. Similarly, rich people are more likely to have bought a home and paid off the mortgage, whereas poor people tend to rent and - unless they make or inherit a lot more money at some point in the future - will pay accommodation costs until they die.

For instance, that suggests £289 p.m. accommodation for the "average" household. To give an idea what it's really like, I live in a fairly average price city and work in a poor city, and you'll be damn lucky to rent even a basic 2-bedroom flat/house in a low SES district in either city for less than £500 p.m. (A mortgage for an equivalent property would be more expensive). Meanwhile, monthly public transport for commuting needs would be about £50-60 p.m. p.p.

So, in short, I don't think that average is remotely representative of what most people's real world budget is.
I don't see how any of this makes it less important. You're saying these numbers aren't a good justification to take serious step to lower housing/rent price because housing is actually more expensive than what those number reflect? Doesn't that just mean it's more important, not less? Also poor people don't really live closer to where they work because that's where house price are highest, instead they have to commute, people who live in the city of London aren't poor. Poor people would like to live closer and eliminate the waste of time and money that is commuting, but they can't afford to because house/rent is too expensive because supply are too constrained.

My point is that people spend too much money on transport/housing, which mean they can't spend that money on other stuff and its also prevent them from living in area they'd like to, which would make them richer and give them more free time. This is an easy problem to fix since all you have to do is build more housing in expensive part of the country to bring price of house and rent down and make people richer. But the people who live in those area will try to prevent that to preserve their advantages.
 

Buyetyen

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No one is more important than anybody else.
Then you don't leave people behind when you have the ability to help them. You're saying, "For the benefit of society, I am volunteering/sacrificing this statistical minority of the population to get punched in the face," without ever stopping to ask why we're getting punched in the face in the first place.

If your house is infested with mold and also there's a few ant in the basement, you don't start by fixing the ants problem because it doesn't affect most of the house, you tackle the big problem first. Their life don't matter when weighted against the life of everyone.
In this metaphor, I assume that homeless people are supposed to be the ants. A pest species that possess only a rudimentary consciousness yet are so pervasive there is an industry dedicated to exterminating them.
 

Agema

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I don't see how any of this makes it less important. You're saying these numbers aren't a good justification to take serious step to lower housing/rent price because housing is actually more expensive than what those number reflect?
No, I'm literally just saying that those numbers are potentially misleading when we try to assess people's financial situation. I agree housing is a major issue. However, I don't think transport is, except for usually more rural communities with poor public transport.
 

tstorm823

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I don't particularly care to diminish income inequality. There are mountains of real problems to work on, and every real problem that's solved or improved makes the question of income equality ever more irrelevant.
 

Trunkage

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I don't particularly care to diminish income inequality. There are mountains of real problems to work on, and every real problem that's solved or improved makes the question of income equality ever more irrelevant.
I believe the idea is that if you work on income inequality, most of those problems are fixed

Like, health care wouldn't need to be subsided it people got paid enough to pay for emergencies
 

Buyetyen

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I don't particularly care to diminish income inequality.
You picked an interesting thread to join, then. If you do not fundamentally agree that poverty is the failure of the state to look after its people and instead believe that people must be stratified from one another by income and social class, then I suppose you wouldn't regard inequality as a problem in general.
 

tstorm823

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I believe the idea is that if you work on income inequality, most of those problems are fixed

Like, health care wouldn't need to be subsided it people got paid enough to pay for emergencies
I understand the idea, but I disagree with it. Like, if everyone got the same income exactly, would everyone be equally likely to achieve their dreams? Would nobody ever be homeless or hungry? Would everyone's health issues be equally provided for? i don't believe any of those things would be fixed just by distributing money. People would still succeed or fail in different ways. People would still find themselves out on the street sometimes. People would still get the short end of the health stick and have major problems that genuinely cost more to fix than an average income could pay for. I don't think sharing money about equally actually solves many important problems, and I also think establishing even a relatively level economy is a harder goal than trying to tackle serious problems head on.

Could we do some trust-busting action and pull down the holdings of the richest people relatively easily and with little downside? Absolutely. But it's not gonna actually help people all that much.

You picked an interesting thread to join, then. If you do not fundamentally agree that poverty is the failure of the state to look after its people and instead believe that people must be stratified from one another by income and social class, then I suppose you wouldn't regard inequality as a problem in general.
I disagree with your concept of poverty to begin with. Having less money relative to someone else is frankly a stupid way to measure poverty. You can have a society of all well off people and still have class division, you can also have a society of perfect equality where people starve to death. There are some practical downsides to wealth inequality in economic inefficiencies and social resentment, but measuring the problem of poverty based on whether or not rich people exist is nonsense.
 

MrCalavera

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I don't particularly care to diminish income inequality. There are mountains of real problems to work on, and every real problem that's solved or improved makes the question of income equality ever more irrelevant.
Do tell, what are those "real problems", since you already invaded this topic you have no interest in?