What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

[nomotog_v1legacy]

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

You took the wrong tactic, change the genre.

The visual novel genre is one of the smallest around, as far as I am aware it's not even sold in the west, it's all downloaded or imported.

A game within the same genre as Divinity but in the overly sexualized style of DOA would do fairly well.

I kind of doubt that. Divinity was a top down RPG. It's not at all conductive to sexing up. Your view is so far zoomed out you wouldn't even be able to see the dong. (Though there was that bit of a hubbbub about bikini armor. I am not sure how that fits in this.)

 

[Shiver Me Tits]

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

Sorry for quoting you again, but I came up with enough new information that it made more sense to make it a second post. The VN Gengisgame is talking about is the Kickstarter for Muv-Luv. It wasn't for a new game, the Kickstarter was asking for 250k to translate and import all 3 visual novels (plus 2 additional ones in a stretch goal)in the series to the US, that they exceeded their asking price for what amounts to a translation of three games that are almost ten years old is impressive, but it makes it hard to compare to something like more traditional kickstarters.

The number of backers also breaks down oddly, for the Muv-Luv Kickstarter, it took less than 8000 people to reach that 1.2 million total, whereas D:OS had over twice as many backers, the sequel to D:OS got almost 50k backers behind it. So a lot less people pledged a higher average dollar amount. Which kind of makes sense if you look at the audience as similar to the Japanese otaku demographic, I.e. An extremely niche market that is very dedicated and willing to spend more money on merchandise than the general population, which is explained by many of the higher tiers focusing more on merchandise surrounding g the game than you normally see in kickstarters.The game is released on Steam now, it would be interesting to know how it sold compared to other slightly above indie level projects.

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

The problem is that video gaming in general is a high-volume, low-margin business. The marketing, the management, the development and every aspect of it has been formed by that reality. Even consoles are typically sold at or near a loss, and success only becomes apparent at the scale of tens of millions of units sold. Games, which are designed to reach a portion of that market, echo that model.

It is a mass-media, and if movies, television, and the rest have taught us anything it's that audience numbers matter more than audience "quality". It's desirable to have young people, but if you have a few million of ANYONE you can make some serious money on low margins and high volume. Targeting a tiny fraction of that market for a high margin, low volume run of something is going to be tough, and why would you do it? You can make so much more by taking $1 every month from 10 million people (and in reality those numbers are SO much higher) than you are relying on the continuing dedication and solvency of a few hundred thousand at most.

It's the equivalent of trying to open a 3 Michelin star restaurant to cater to a bunch of critics, instead of inventing McDonalds. Except of course in this case it's not a quality differential, because generally the better games are found outside of the ecchi sphere, it's just about a niche interest. Still, if porn has taught us anything, it's just how dedicated people are about their kinks.

How would you make the McDonalds of sex? This thread is about the idea of a DOA:BV being made, so how could you take a game like that with what looks like a very small appeal and make it appeal to millions?

Can't be done. Millions of people mostly want to see real men and women, not relatively simplistic drawings. Give the industry another decade or two, and with photorealism I think that market explodes. It's not hard to imagine everything from an extension of the "Host/ess Bar" concept, with perfect virtual avatars, all the way to customizeable strip shows. After all, any industry that has a big "No TOUCH" rule is ripe for VR disruption. That's not here yet though, and 2D is still a pretty niche preference given the role imagination has to play.

That's just my take on it of course, I wouldn't mind hearing yours.

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

You took the wrong tactic, change the genre.

The visual novel genre is one of the smallest around, as far as I am aware it's not even sold in the west, it's all downloaded or imported.

A game within the same genre as Divinity but in the overly sexualized style of DOA would do fairly well.

No. As someone who funded D:OS, no. Overwhelmingly it's for people who want a high quality RPG, which is the opposite of something like DOA. I can't imagine more different audiences, and I really wonder how much care you're giving to what you say when you toss out something like that.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

The former is how we get a lot of our current market in the west, because Japan can't export its merchandising base as easily as it can the main story/game properties, so they focus on broadening appeal over exploiting a niche market with specialized products. Even with Muv-Luv, they toned down the ecchi stuff in editions to market it to Japanese people on consoles, those editions pushed the popularity of the series as they outsold the pornographic PC version, so Japan essentially applies a similar policy to the West, since they can't exploit the merchandise, they change the property to make it appeal to a broader audience.

In the west? In my mind, the VN market came from first hardcore otaku, then people who hang around on /a/, then people who wanted to play the source material of their favorite anime, then Katawa Shoujo, and finally Steam Greenlight made it a gag gift.

Can visual novels ever hope to appeal to a broad audience? I mean we are talking about a medium that will always have the stigma of eroge. Lots of people can't discern the two. The good VNs have more words than entire book series, and is mainly 50+ hours of reading, reading, reading, and if the game has routes than be prepared to read the same thing over and over. For VNs, lots of times it becomes a boring slog, but at the end I think, wow that was amazing, totally worth the suffering.

To say that the all-ages console version pushed the popularity of Muv Luv is kind of a funky claim. Yes, it's true, but that's not the entire story. Console ports sell more than their PC counterpart, because well, there are millions of consoles and not so many PCs. Looking at sales, computer gaming at that point, was practically eroge. So, did they appeal to a wider audience? Yes, but not in the way you describe it, as "less ecchi". The sex scenes were removed so they could actually publish the game on consoles, but the ecchi is still there.

From a business perspective, it makes sense to create an all ages version so that people under 18 could buy it. Hell, Some people buy the console version just for their collection.

Muv Luv was already a hit, and Alternative gained an Episode 3 status. Then Alternative became the highest rated VN since then. To say that the all ages PS3 version pushed the popularity of the series would be like saying that Steam popularized the Half Life series.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

The former is how we get a lot of our current market in the west, because Japan can't export its merchandising base as easily as it can the main story/game properties, so they focus on broadening appeal over exploiting a niche market with specialized products. Even with Muv-Luv, they toned down the ecchi stuff in editions to market it to Japanese people on consoles, those editions pushed the popularity of the series as they outsold the pornographic PC version, so Japan essentially applies a similar policy to the West, since they can't exploit the merchandise, they change the property to make it appeal to a broader audience.

In the west? In my mind, the VN market came from first hardcore otaku, then people who hang around on /a/, then people who wanted to play the source material of their favorite anime, then Katawa Shoujo, and finally Steam Greenlight made it a gag gift.

Can visual novels ever hope to appeal to a broad audience? I mean we are talking about a medium that will always have the stigma of eroge. Lots of people can't discern the two. The good VNs have more words than entire book series, and is mainly 50+ hours of reading, reading, reading, and if the game has routes than be prepared to read the same thing over and over. For VNs, lots of times it becomes a boring slog, but at the end I think, wow that was amazing, totally worth the suffering.

To say that the all-ages console version pushed the popularity of Muv Luv is kind of a funky claim. Yes, it's true, but that's not the entire story. Console ports sell more than their PC counterpart, because well, there are millions of consoles and not so many PCs. Looking at sales, computer gaming at that point, was practically eroge. So, did they appeal to a wider audience? Yes, but not in the way you describe it, as "less ecchi". The sex scenes were removed so they could actually publish the game on consoles, but the ecchi is still there.

From a business perspective, it makes sense to create an all ages version so that people under 18 could buy it. Hell, Some people buy the console version just for their collection.

Muv Luv was already a hit, and Alternative gained an Episode 3 status. Then Alternative became the highest rated VN since then. To say that the all ages PS3 version pushed the popularity of the series would be like saying that Steam popularized the Half Life series.

I think the VM could catch on very easy if it wasn't so Japanese. I mean gameplay wise. Like if you crammed a VN full of hard and meaningful/meaningless choices so the player felt more engaged. (Maybe included some RPG like systems?) Actually I think VMs are catching on rather well now that people bump into them on steam.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

I think the VM could catch on very easy if it wasn't so Japanese. I mean gameplay wise. Like if you crammed a VN full of hard and meaningful/meaningless choices so the player felt more engaged. (Maybe included some RPG like systems?) Actually I think VMs are catching on rather well now that people bump into them on steam.

I know right? I played Ace Attorney and years later I was like "That was a visual novel?" Visual novels like that newfangled Zero Escape game seemed to be more puzzle games/mystery games rather than, straight up "tell me a story" or "tell me 6 stories of different characters, try to avoid the death flags." I'd rather watch an anime adaptation, if they would make more of them though.

Games like Persona 4 are great, because it's half rpg and half visual novel/dating sim. It's like 30 minutes in you say "I want more gameplay" and then you get rpg gameplay, and then after another 30 minutes you say "I want more story" and it cycles between the two. And really visual novels have become jrpgs, branching pretty long ago, yet visual novels have continued to developed on their own and seem more like a legacy format.

 

[Shiver Me Tits]

I think the VM could catch on very easy if it wasn't so Japanese. I mean gameplay wise. Like if you crammed a VN full of hard and meaningful/meaningless choices so the player felt more engaged. (Maybe included some RPG like systems?) Actually I think VMs are catching on rather well now that people bump into them on steam.

I know right? I played Ace Attorney and years later I was like "That was a visual novel?" Visual novels like that newfangled Zero Escape game seemed to be more puzzle games/mystery games rather than, straight up "tell me a story" or "tell me 6 stories of different characters, try to avoid the death flags." I'd rather watch an anime adaptation, if they would make more of them though.

Games like Persona 4 are great, because it's half rpg and half visual novel/dating sim. It's like 30 minutes in you say "I want more gameplay" and then you get rpg gameplay, and then after another 30 minutes you say "I want more story" and it cycles between the two. And really visual novels have become jrpgs, even though they branched pretty long ago, visual novels seem more like a legacy format.

There you have it though, Persona is the answer; be a good game that weaves the gameplay and VN elements together, and you don't have to answer to charges of being cheap eroge. Quality speaks for itself. People play farming sims, they like what they like, but you have to actually make it a good whatever-it-is. I think a lot of developers think, "Well, slap some tits on it, and it'll sell as well as it's gonna sell." Meanwhile the people who want to play a game that's tittivating, and a great game are playing Bayonetta.

 

[EternallyBored]

In the west? In my mind, the VN market came from first hardcore otaku, then people who hang around on /a/, then people who wanted to play the source material of their favorite anime, then Katawa Shoujo, and finally Steam Greenlight made it a gag gift.

I'm primarily talking from a business and mainstream perspective, the otaku and places like /a/ and other anime boards were certainly a contributing factor in driving sales and enthusiasm for these properties, perhaps even the main factor, but from the perspective of businesses, they are looking to attract more numbers than what places like /a/ can provide. Western otaku are the foundation, much like Japan, but much like what they did to Fate Stay and Muv-Luv in Japan, the ecchi otaku are a specialty market at best, a place to start, but any businessman in charge of a company of any notable size isn't going to want to just appeal to that market.

Can visual novels ever hope to appeal to a broad audience? I mean we are talking about a medium that will always have the stigma of eroge. Lots of people can't discern the two. The good VNs have more words than entire book series, and is mainly 50+ hours of reading, reading, reading, and if the game has routes than be prepared to read the same thing over and over. For VNs, lots of times it becomes a boring slog, but at the end I think, wow that was amazing, totally worth the suffering.

This is a good question, and one that online digital distribution has now finally made it economically feasible to explore for a lot of Japanese businesses. The risk has been lessened as they no longer stand to lose significantly if their forays fail.

As for stigma, it will likely be a thing for the foreseeable future, even in Japan, PC gaming tends to be seen as the realm of porn games that get toned down for Japanese console release. In the West, it also has to contend with the, admittedly lessening, but still present view in the mainstream that video games are an inherently juvenile endeavor, as well as the animation age ghetto that sees cartoons as mostly for children, a double whammy of cultural stigmas. One that is being eroded, but will likely be around for years to come until those that grew up with anime in the 80's and 90's and the more adult Western cartoons of the 90's onwards start to pass their views on to their children.

To say that the all-ages console version pushed the popularity of Muv Luv is kind of a funky claim. Yes, it's true, but that's not the entire story. Console ports sell more than their PC counterpart, because well, there are millions of consoles and not so many PCs. Looking at sales, computer gaming at that point, was practically eroge. So, did they appeal to a wider audience? Yes, but not in the way you describe it, as "less ecchi". The sex scenes were removed so they could actually publish the game on consoles, but the ecchi is still there.

Ecchi is still there, but the general cultural attitude is that straight up sex games are less accepted on consoles, admittedly, even Japan kind of has the view that consoles are generally the "all-ages" device. Muv-Luv is hardly the only example, generally "all-ages" edits sell better than the full porn counter-parts, even across PC, while VN's have a stigma, there are crowds of adults and women that flock to those exceptional VN's that are much more than their sparse sex scenes. Much like the Nasuverse, some Japanese businesses seem to see it as, you add some porn to get the guaranteed otaku crowd, and then if the story and reviews are positive, you drop the sex and the lewder fanservice and just tell the story.

Of course, the "porn with plot" VN's that are also common are an exception to this, creating an all-ages version of those types of stories would be like trying to sell pornographic movies with the sex edited out, an overall pointless endeavor.

From a business perspective, it makes sense to create an all ages version so that people under 18 could buy it. Hell, Some people buy the console version just for their collection.

Under 18, girls and women into the better told slice of life stories, adults that would have been otherwise uncomfortable with the high/middle schoolers having explicit sex (yes a large number of Japanese people I know think explicitly sexual moe stuff is disturbing too), even over 18s that just thought the sex was holding an interesting story or world building back. The last being the reason my Japanese Cousin-in-law eventually got into Muv-Luv, and introduced it to me, although I'll admit I had no idea they were trying to kickstart a translation, which is nice, fan translations have existed forever, but I hope it still does well here.

Muv Luv was already a hit, and Alternative gained an Episode 3 status. Then Alternative became the highest rated VN since then. To say that the all ages PS3 version pushed the popularity of the series would be like saying that Steam popularized the Half Life series.

Muv-Luv was a hit for what it was, it doesn't really change the fact that its all-ages edit brought in a broader audience, while the reason for the edit wasn't just to broaden the audience, it is a tactic that has been used even for Japanese PC to PC ports and translating VN's and light novel's into anime, manga, or movie format. At least that's how its been described to me by Japanese relatives: a known practice of using sex to appeal to the otaku, usually looked at with disdain, and then being broadened or relaunched with a similar premise for more mainstream audiences with the explicit stuff taken out.

EDIT: regardless of the reasons, whether my assessment is true or offbase, I do want to see the current streak of digitizing more offbeat genres and stories from Japan continue and succeed. I would prefer we not get strange edits like the 90's because a property is seen as "too Japanese".

 

[Gengisgame]

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

You took the wrong tactic, change the genre.

The visual novel genre is one of the smallest around, as far as I am aware it's not even sold in the west, it's all downloaded or imported.

A game within the same genre as Divinity but in the overly sexualized style of DOA would do fairly well.

I kind of doubt that. Divinity was a top down RPG. It's not at all conductive to sexing up. Your view is so far zoomed out you wouldn't even be able to see the dong. (Though there was that bit of a hubbbub about bikini armor. I am not sure how that fits in this.)

I was aiming at the medium budget RPG genre, not the top down rpg but even then you could use character portraits. That's what a lot of Japanese games do.

The hub bub is actually a big factor as to why these things don't happen, it wasn't widely reported on but the makers of the game had a female character with a bare torso on the original cover art when the male character did not, they received death threats over what people consider sexist art. Men and women don't dress the same last time I checked.

 

[Gengisgame]

No. As someone who funded D:OS, no. Overwhelmingly it's for people who want a high quality RPG, which is the opposite of something like DOA. I can't imagine more different audiences, and I really wonder how much care you're giving to what you say when you toss out something like that.

You aren't even following the conversation, your also one person who bought the game, I originally compared the amount raised with another game in an extremely niche genre, I only used Divinity as a more popular genre.

Bought Divinity, the game mechanics where great but the story was hardly a serious affair, filled with lots of humor, yet you believe a bit of sexual innuendo falls outside the tone.

If you dislike the idea of any overt sexualization, that moment with the bath for instance but taken slightly further then that's fine, I simply have opposing tastes.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

You took the wrong tactic, change the genre.

The visual novel genre is one of the smallest around, as far as I am aware it's not even sold in the west, it's all downloaded or imported.

A game within the same genre as Divinity but in the overly sexualized style of DOA would do fairly well.

I kind of doubt that. Divinity was a top down RPG. It's not at all conductive to sexing up. Your view is so far zoomed out you wouldn't even be able to see the dong. (Though there was that bit of a hubbbub about bikini armor. I am not sure how that fits in this.)

I was aiming at the medium budget RPG genre, not the top down rpg but even then you could use character portraits. That's what a lot of Japanese games do.

The hub bub is actually a big factor as to why these things don't happen, it wasn't widely reported on but the makers of the game had a female character with a bare torso on the original cover art when the male character did not, they received death threats over what people consider sexist art. Men and women don't dress the same last time I checked.

Medium budget isn't a genre, but I see what you mean. I'm not sure if such a game would do well. I don't have any examples of a erotic game that did as well as divinity.

I recall a lot of coverage of the change. The artist went on a rant about the change, but the new stuff did look better.

 

[EternallyBored]

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

You took the wrong tactic, change the genre.

The visual novel genre is one of the smallest around, as far as I am aware it's not even sold in the west, it's all downloaded or imported.

A game within the same genre as Divinity but in the overly sexualized style of DOA would do fairly well.

I kind of doubt that. Divinity was a top down RPG. It's not at all conductive to sexing up. Your view is so far zoomed out you wouldn't even be able to see the dong. (Though there was that bit of a hubbbub about bikini armor. I am not sure how that fits in this.)

I was aiming at the medium budget RPG genre, not the top down rpg but even then you could use character portraits. That's what a lot of Japanese games do.

The hub bub is actually a big factor as to why these things don't happen, it wasn't widely reported on but the makers of the game had a female character with a bare torso on the original cover art when the male character did not, they received death threats over what people consider sexist art. Men and women don't dress the same last time I checked.

Medium budget isn't a genre, but I see what you mean. I'm not sure if such a game would do well. I don't have any examples of a erotic game that did as well as divinity.

I recall a lot of coverage of the change. The artist went on a rant about the change, but the new stuff did look better.

Overly-sexualized without being porn, the closest would probably be Queen's Blade, it exists with relatively little fanfare, it makes a decent amount of money in the West, so Gengisgame's not wrong, it's financially viable on a budget game level. Queen's Blade is basically an MMO game where everyone runs around in stripper armor, some varieties little more than nipple pasties and a thong, I think you can even pay extra for full nudity. The one male class even generally has more normal looking armor, dunno if they changed that, but yeah, its exceedingly silly to see men in normal clothes with average looks next to a bunch of underwear and bondage gear supermodel female characters.

The game suffers the same way DOAX does though, they put so much time and money into making skimpy costumes and bondage gear that the game itself is a boring mediocre mess, and I would take the worst of WoW over that nonsense any day of the week.

It got some controversy at first, but like every company that ignores it, suffered no real negative consequences, same for Divinity, had they decided not to change it, nothing would have happened, people would have stopped complaining in a week or so, although I agree with you, the changed armor was better. The plate mail midriff was stupid looking, and no amount of "women wear different clothes" makes it look less like costume armor when placed side by side with the male character.

Companies like Blizzard and DICE still wouldn't likely touch such a game, and succeeding with such a game at the AAA level seems unlikely, but in the end something with Divinity's budget might work.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

You took the wrong tactic, change the genre.

The visual novel genre is one of the smallest around, as far as I am aware it's not even sold in the west, it's all downloaded or imported.

A game within the same genre as Divinity but in the overly sexualized style of DOA would do fairly well.

I kind of doubt that. Divinity was a top down RPG. It's not at all conductive to sexing up. Your view is so far zoomed out you wouldn't even be able to see the dong. (Though there was that bit of a hubbbub about bikini armor. I am not sure how that fits in this.)

I was aiming at the medium budget RPG genre, not the top down rpg but even then you could use character portraits. That's what a lot of Japanese games do.

The hub bub is actually a big factor as to why these things don't happen, it wasn't widely reported on but the makers of the game had a female character with a bare torso on the original cover art when the male character did not, they received death threats over what people consider sexist art. Men and women don't dress the same last time I checked.

Medium budget isn't a genre, but I see what you mean. I'm not sure if such a game would do well. I don't have any examples of a erotic game that did as well as divinity.

I recall a lot of coverage of the change. The artist went on a rant about the change, but the new stuff did look better.

Overly-sexualized without being porn, the closest would probably be Queen's Blade, it exists with relatively little fanfare, it makes a decent amount of money in the West, so Gengisgame's not wrong, it's financially viable on a budget game level. Queen's Blade is basically an MMO game where everyone runs around in stripper armor, some varieties little more than nipple pasties and a thong, I think you can even pay extra for full nudity. The one male class even generally has more normal looking armor, dunno if they changed that, but yeah, its exceedingly silly to see men in normal clothes with average looks next to a bunch of underwear and bondage gear supermodel female characters.

The game suffers the same way DOAX does though, they put so much time and money into making skimpy costumes and bondage gear that the game itself is a boring mediocre mess, and I would take the worst of WoW over that nonsense any day of the week.

It got some controversy at first, but like every company that ignores it, suffered no real negative consequences, same for Divinity, had they decided not to change it, nothing would have happened, people would have stopped complaining in a week or so, although I agree with you, the changed armor was better. The plate mail midriff was stupid looking, and no amount of "women wear different clothes" makes it look less like costume armor when placed side by side with the male character.

Companies like Blizzard and DICE still wouldn't likely touch such a game, and succeeding with such a game at the AAA level seems unlikely, but in the end something with Divinity's budget might work.

It took me time to find what you were talking about. It's called scarlet blade in the US. So it's not a game made in the US, but ported over. (It also looked like gack, but the likely isn't a.. um.)

 

[Tayh]

It took me time to find what you were talking about. It's called scarlet blade in the US. So it's not a game made in the US, but ported over. (It also looked like gack, but the likely isn't a.. um.)

Pretty sure it also closed down due to lack of popularity.

 

[Shiver Me Tits]

No. As someone who funded D:OS, no. Overwhelmingly it's for people who want a high quality RPG, which is the opposite of something like DOA. I can't imagine more different audiences, and I really wonder how much care you're giving to what you say when you toss out something like that.

You aren't even following the conversation

How so? What have I failed to follow, catch me up, don't just throw that out and go on. What posts have I missed? Keep in mind that "not following the conversation" and "not agreeing with you" are different things.

 

[EternallyBored]

It took me time to find what you were talking about. It's called scarlet blade in the US. So it's not a game made in the US, but ported over. (It also looked like gack, but the likely isn't a.. um.)

Pretty sure it also closed down due to lack of popularity.

I think they also had massive server problems, or at least I remember reading a story about them doing server rollback awhile ago.

Still, maybe not the best example, it was, from what I've been told, a mixture of the worst aspects of Korean MMO's with mediocre combat and no real coherent story to speak of, and content updates so slow would make most Free to play MMO's feel like WoW's regular expansion packs.

I can't think of another example of a game that would fit the bill of being like DOAX with a midrange budget similar to games like Divinity.

 

[Shiver Me Tits]

It took me time to find what you were talking about. It's called scarlet blade in the US. So it's not a game made in the US, but ported over. (It also looked like gack, but the likely isn't a.. um.)

Pretty sure it also closed down due to lack of popularity.

I think they also had massive server problems, or at least I remember reading a story about them doing server rollback awhile ago.

Still, maybe not the best example, it was, from what I've been told, a mixture of the worst aspects of Korean MMO's with mediocre combat and no real coherent story to speak of, and content updates so slow would make most Free to play MMO's feel like WoW's regular expansion packs.

I can't think of another example of a game that would fit the bill of being like DOAX with a midrange budget similar to games like Divinity.

"Vag Munroe's Great Pussy Extravaganza!"

But I might have dreamed that one.

 

[Helter Skelter]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

This isn't really true of most people in this thread, but by posting that way you've neatly grouped everyone who disagrees with you in the same pile without having to actually present your own argument. Please don't think any of that went unnoticed.

Your making things up.

Did I say all posters? no, I did not.

Did I say that you did? No, I did not. Stop making things up and getting outraged at them.

 

[Gengisgame]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

This isn't really true of most people in this thread, but by posting that way you've neatly grouped everyone who disagrees with you in the same pile without having to actually present your own argument. Please don't think any of that went unnoticed.

Your making things up.

Did I say all posters? no, I did not.

Did I say that you did? No, I did not. Stop making things up and getting outraged at them.

Quote from your post.

"neatly grouped everyone"

So yeah, you did.

 

[Sceadu]

1. Look at the level of hostility of it even existing in this thread alone.

2. Shaming at the idea of owning it, this only really applies to men, same reason sex toy's for women are far more openly acceptable.

This isn't really true of most people in this thread, but by posting that way you've neatly grouped everyone who disagrees with you in the same pile without having to actually present your own argument. Please don't think any of that went unnoticed.

Your making things up.

Did I say all posters? no, I did not.

Did I say that you did? No, I did not. Stop making things up and getting outraged at them.

Quote from your post.

"neatly grouped everyone"

So yeah, you did.

"Everyone who disagrees with you"

and "Everyone in the thread" are definitely two different things, but you must know that, since you decided to ignore the "...who disagrees with you part."

tch tch tch.

 

[Calico_Asshole]

Honestly, it's not just this kind of game. You don't exactly sell millions of copies of "Strip Majong" in the West either. If you just want to be titillated, there's a world of porn that includes just that, lots of it animated, or if it's your thing there are strip bars absolutely everywhere in most of the West, certainly North America and Canada. I can't imagine a bunch of Floridians who normally go to a strip bar on a Friday night, would be terribly interested in relatively low-res T&A.

Which is the final thing; real women are still vastly more detailed and superior to the digital variety in every way. If we were having this discussion in 20 years, maybe it would be different.

I've made this point enough times but people really need to stop making comments as if porn and any other form of titilation are interchangeable.

You need to stop acting like porn is all hardcore porn. Titillation exists in many forms, all of them involving either images of real women, or real women. None of them require anyone to play a shitty game.

This isn't a difficult issue to understand, unless you don't want to understand it.