What's more important in sprawling level design, levels that are large, or levels that are detailed?

Buccura

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I found myself pondering that, while the levels in the newer Deus Ex games are not as big as the original one, they still do provide a lot of different ways to go about them. I also remember how VideoGameDunky said smaller levels are more interesting to explore because the interesting aspects are more concentrated.

So, it got me wondering, when making sprawling level design, is it better to have large levels that have a lot of space, but not a huge amount of detail (e.g. DX1), or levels that are comparatively smaller (Not say, DX2 small mind) but have more interesting things in them since they are more concentrated?

Both cases can still provide plenty of ways to go about them, that doesn't have to change. But I admit there are times when exploring the larger sized levels of Deus Ex 1 that it just felt like I was walking through fairly empty spaces. Granted, Revision did improve this.

Now of course I would love to have both. To have the scale of DX1's levels with the detail of DX3/4 would be breathtaking. But, let's be real, unless a studio is given a ton of time and budget it's not likely going to happen.

For me it's a hard question to answer. I love the scope of large levels, but detailed levels make it feel more real and immersive because of the smaller details.
 

Here Comes Tomorrow

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Density will always be better that size.

I loved MGSV but the map is so pointless with all the empty space between camps. The camps themselves are really well thought out but the space between them is dead.

One of the worst thing about devs making huge empty maps, especially in sandbox games is when you somehow get stranded in the middle of nowhere and have to run for 5 minutes to find a mode of transport to get back to civilization.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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I would say detailed, but that kind of depends on what you mean by it.

The level, first and foremost, needs to be well designed. Not just visually, but mechanically, and if you spend 5-10 minutes just running forward to reach somewhere, with nothing to do on the way... Yeah, that's often problematic [Dependent on the game and a bunch else, but lets just assume your normal single player RPG here, like Skyrim, Dragon Age Inquisition, or Witcher 3].

There needs to be something for you to do outside just running forward, and different games address this in different ways. In most though, the easy route is taken, and a bunch of random enemies to fight are put there, and a few generic loot drops. Unless the combat in your game is really amazing, or that loot is really hard to find [Obviously its not but you know...], that tends to just make it feel like grind, with more and more interruptions to the things you want to do.
Others put a bunch of generic quests there to abstract things a level. Rather than there just being random enemies and loot to go to, there is a person telling you to do it. It makes you more inclined to want to do it, rather than it getting in the way of the things you want to do. Not necessarily by a ton, but its better than nothing.
Possibly the best approach to it I've seen is in the old Rareware games. There are combat encounters and obstacles, but they don't interrupt the flow of the game, its literally a one button press to deal with them on your way most of the time, and beyond that your characters had abilities they would unlock throughout the game, that would allow you to access different areas and do different things as you continued through the game. It wouldn't have taken much effort to, for every minute of walking, add something that you would want to use your abilities on to see what was there, making it feel more like discovery than forcing you to go somewhere, and making it entirely your volition to do so. Adding a couple of them that you can't access until later in the game to areas that you need to backtrack through a lot is also often a good idea, as it makes it less mundane to run through the same area all over again. It often isn't much effort to design these little things, however the game needs to support those complex mechanics - which many games don't these days, instead favouring simple hack'n'slash style first person combat, and combat being the only real gameplay element at a player's disposal outside lockpicking. Zelda tends to do this well though, with a variety of tools you can use in a variety of ways, allowing them to hide a lot of things in their world for players to find.

But overall size that just isn't at all used is... pointless, and actually hurts the game. A small level that isn't well designed, or without interesting things to do is better than a large empty level, but it also isn't good and will also often hurt the game. Well designed areas, whether large and open, or smaller and more restrictive, are the ones that you'll remember and enjoy more. Either one done poorly, is not going to be that great a level.

Extra Credit's recently did a 5 parter on level design and the Tower of Durlag. I think that sort of applies to this as well, or at least is a good framework for looking at it. Most designers, I would think, see the "Overworld" as just one area, or an in-between area, and thus it often doesn't have a reward component, or a puzzle component, occasionally a combat component, and usually purely a rather light narrative component. Considering it not as one big area, but as a conglomerate of smaller, open, areas like the aforementioned games tended to, and allowing differences in the content components of each area to keep the player engaged is a better approach than most games take.

While the Arkham games have never been absolutely massive, they have been rather large and I think they address this pretty well. Moving around the overworld itself is engaging to some level. Its not constantly harassing you, its not something you have to really think about, or something you'll usually fail epically at and be unable to continue, it doesn't break the flow of movement either, but you are always doing something, and taking action. Scattered around the world, every rooftop, while open and part of the open world, is its own mini level. Some of them are just resting areas. Some of them contain puzzles to solve. Some of them have a narrative purpose. Some of them have combat encounters. You have a variety of tools Batman can use, and a handful of them are useful just to explore parts of the city, and you feel like you want to do that of your own volition a lot of the time out of plain old curiosity.

So, again, I don't think it matters as much how dense the real meaty content is, or how large your levels are - its what you do with those levels, and how you keep the player engaged, that matters.
 

Bobular

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Obviously both is best, but if I have to choose I will go for smaller well designed levels over large empty wastelands.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas make a good comparison here. In Fallout 3 I felt I was just trudging through without much of interest about but New Vegas had interesting encounters along the road as I went making the traveling more entertaining.
 

chrissx2

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I want levels to be interesting. I love great vistas. Small, detailed levels can be just as boring as big and empty ones.
Though I will always take small but unique world vs large filled with copy/paste material (one of the reasons why I'm not a big fan of Bethesda and Ubi games).
 

Buccura

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Quality over quantity any day, every day. When devs can pull of both is when you have something truly exceptional.

Examples of the above -

Souls games
Arkham City
Deus Ex
Hitman: Blood Money, 2016
MGS: GZ
GTA games, more recent the better
Crysis/Warhead
Uncharted 4
 

Buccura

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inu-kun said:
What does detail mean? If we go just levels of detail in the environment than we get ff13, shiny unique hallways. If its the content and exploration than good.
FF13 is far more linear than sprawling.
 

happyninja42

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Since your question is "what's more important", the answer is:

Neither.

They are equally important. Having a massive area but nothing to do in it is the same as having a small area with nothing in it. It's nothing. That's not very fun.

You need to properly balance size and content to make a good setting for a game. Period.
 

Dragonbums

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It really depends on what you are going for, but detail, and density probably outweighs the size and length of a dungeon.

After recently playing Kirby Planet Robobot the levels were short but so full of secrets. And while that resulted in a shorter game, it also resulted in a much more fun game.

Large levels don't mean shit if they aren't engaging and fun to play in.

I've been really slacking in my platformer games so I can't exactly remember what games really did this. But I'm sure they are out there.
 

CaitSeith

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It depends on the game. Fast paced games where you are in constant movement don't benefit as much from highly detailed levels than from large levels, as their gameplay rarely allows you to stop and smell the roses.
 

Shoggoth2588

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You can have the biggest levels in the world but what's the point if they're empty? The levels in Otogi: Myth of Demons were short when compared to other, similar action games but just about everything in all of those levels can be broken in a way that wouldn't be seen again until The Force Unleashed. It made for a really great time! Sonic 06 is an example of giving you huge hub worlds with...literally nothing in them. Sonic Adventure was another one that did this: big hub with nothing to at all to do unless you activate the (sometimes obscure) triggers.
 

gsilver

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Empty "open" levels are the bane of interesting game design.

Something like the first Deus Ex and GTA 3 impressed the heck out of me at the time... but now I just want games to get to the point and not spend a ton of time with me travelling through nothingness.

To go a step further... after last year, where it seemed like every AAA game was open world, I actively avoid anything "open world"
 

Sniper Team 4

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We must define the terms better, as so many people have already pointed out.

Final Fantasy XIII--Very small levels (basically corridors), but boy where they detailed. Super pretty corridors, but corridors none the less.

On the flip side, Dragon Age: Inquisition. Very open levels, entire maps even, and yet...not really much to do on about eight percent of said maps. Just space. Worse, the stupid banter dialogue rarely seems to trigger, so your party is stuck roaming the vast sands of the night desert in silence.


Ignoring all of that and going off of what you probably meant, I would have to say I like my levels to be tighter, more focused experiences. Not only does this allow for better storytelling in most cases, but sometimes walling something only serves to INCREASE the draw of the level. I still remember the first time I played Shi No Numa in World at War. While we were trapped in a small map, just walking to the edge of it and looking into the swamp for clues--be it the meteor, or the hanging body--or just wondering what was out there in the fog was one of the greatest joys of that map.
So yeah, sometimes doing less is more, because it allows players to make out their own fantasies, and those are often much more enjoyable for people.
 

Droopie

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No point in exploring large levels if there's nothing there to explore. I'd much prefer a small, intensely detailed level, especially if it's packed with little story enhancers and things you probably won't catch your first time playing. The level being visually interesting is also really important. Even if there are goodies at the end of a long explore-ready path, I probably won't search it if the visuals are tedious and dull.

Small poorly designed levels are often forgettable, whereas large poorly designed levels are more likely to leave a bad impression simply because they take so much more time to look through.