What's the issue with drones? (UAVs, not bees)

Devil's Due

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Abomination said:
Devil said:
Drone pilots are also getting the same amount of PTSD that regular pilots get from combat since they are stuck in a weird loop where they wake up and see their kids off to school and have to kill people during their day and then return to see their kids again. This creates some psychological confusion and potential damage since they are not fully envolped in either world. If they were deployed and doing this, it'd be easier since they wake up and end the day in a combat zone, but to wake up as a civilian, be an airman, and then be a civilian again once they leave just leads to a lost of difficulty.
Wait, what? Breakfast cooked by the wife in the morning, clock in, kill some people, come home, hug the kid, throw a tennis ball for the dog... remember that is exactly what you saw some guy thousands of miles away doing before you destroyed the building next to him.

Jeez, who thought it would be a good idea to allow such a quick transition between combat zone and civilian life?! Barracks were invented for a reason and it isn't just to be accommodation for troops.
I'm slight confused as to what you're talking about. RPA operators are officers and generally life off base housing in a regular neighborhood since they have such a high BAH compared to the enlisted who generally have to live in a barracks because of their below-minimum pay wages.

Unless you mean they should have some sort of buffer after doing a shift for the RPA operators and help them figure out and deal with what just happened before being allowed back home, then I agree completely. Maybe a de-brief with a psychologist afterwards if there was any ordinance used (the military is so terrified of any psychological issues that people will utterly refuse to talk to psychologists while in because it may ruin their careers) and just have a chat and then release 'em. Hell, I was even considering becoming an RPA while in Air Force ROTC to become a 2nd LT.

EDIT: Hope I didn't misread your post and end up acting like an ass. Sorry.
 

Abomination

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Devil said:
Abomination said:
Devil said:
Drone pilots are also getting the same amount of PTSD that regular pilots get from combat since they are stuck in a weird loop where they wake up and see their kids off to school and have to kill people during their day and then return to see their kids again. This creates some psychological confusion and potential damage since they are not fully envolped in either world. If they were deployed and doing this, it'd be easier since they wake up and end the day in a combat zone, but to wake up as a civilian, be an airman, and then be a civilian again once they leave just leads to a lost of difficulty.
Wait, what? Breakfast cooked by the wife in the morning, clock in, kill some people, come home, hug the kid, throw a tennis ball for the dog... remember that is exactly what you saw some guy thousands of miles away doing before you destroyed the building next to him.

Jeez, who thought it would be a good idea to allow such a quick transition between combat zone and civilian life?! Barracks were invented for a reason and it isn't just to be accommodation for troops.
I'm slight confused as to what you're talking about. RPA operators are officers and generally life off base housing in a regular neighborhood since they have such a high BAH compared to the enlisted who generally have to live in a barracks because of their below-minimum pay wages.

Unless you mean they should have some sort of buffer after doing a shift for the RPA operators and help them figure out and deal with what just happened before being allowed back home, then I agree completely. Maybe a de-brief with a psychologist afterwards if there was any ordinance used (the military is so terrified of any psychological issues that people will utterly refuse to talk to psychologists while in because it may ruin their careers) and just have a chat and then release 'em. Hell, I was even considering becoming an RPA while in Air Force ROTC to become a 2nd LT.

EDIT: Hope I didn't misread your post and end up acting like an ass. Sorry.
You mentioned that some individuals were able to essentially command a drone to kill someone and then they would go home in the afternoon, clocking out of work essentially, and be back in civilian life. I thought that having such a situation is insane as barracks were designed to ensure there was a barrier between military life and civilian life.

The need for this barrier is because the two can no co-exist at the same time without something eventually breaking - either the soldier aspect or the civilian aspect due to the influence of the other. An individual should not be in a warzone one day and be a civilian the other then back again, let alone doing it consistently every 12 hours.
 

Devil's Due

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Abomination said:
Devil said:
Abomination said:
Devil said:
Drone pilots are also getting the same amount of PTSD that regular pilots get from combat since they are stuck in a weird loop where they wake up and see their kids off to school and have to kill people during their day and then return to see their kids again. This creates some psychological confusion and potential damage since they are not fully envolped in either world. If they were deployed and doing this, it'd be easier since they wake up and end the day in a combat zone, but to wake up as a civilian, be an airman, and then be a civilian again once they leave just leads to a lost of difficulty.
Wait, what? Breakfast cooked by the wife in the morning, clock in, kill some people, come home, hug the kid, throw a tennis ball for the dog... remember that is exactly what you saw some guy thousands of miles away doing before you destroyed the building next to him.

Jeez, who thought it would be a good idea to allow such a quick transition between combat zone and civilian life?! Barracks were invented for a reason and it isn't just to be accommodation for troops.
I'm slight confused as to what you're talking about. RPA operators are officers and generally life off base housing in a regular neighborhood since they have such a high BAH compared to the enlisted who generally have to live in a barracks because of their below-minimum pay wages.

Unless you mean they should have some sort of buffer after doing a shift for the RPA operators and help them figure out and deal with what just happened before being allowed back home, then I agree completely. Maybe a de-brief with a psychologist afterwards if there was any ordinance used (the military is so terrified of any psychological issues that people will utterly refuse to talk to psychologists while in because it may ruin their careers) and just have a chat and then release 'em. Hell, I was even considering becoming an RPA while in Air Force ROTC to become a 2nd LT.

EDIT: Hope I didn't misread your post and end up acting like an ass. Sorry.
You mentioned that some individuals were able to essentially command a drone to kill someone and then they would go home in the afternoon, clocking out of work essentially, and be back in civilian life. I thought that having such a situation is insane as barracks were designed to ensure there was a barrier between military life and civilian life.

The need for this barrier is because the two can no co-exist at the same time without something eventually breaking - either the soldier aspect or the civilian aspect due to the influence of the other. An individual should not be in a warzone one day and be a civilian the other then back again, let alone doing it consistently every 12 hours.
Agreed, and sometimes they do it like that with some RPA's being overseas so it works, but a lot are still on the mainland and all the CIA ones if I'm not mistaken are still here too. I honestly cannot imagine doing it anymore and having to explain to my friends / family how my daily life goes by. And I feel sorry that RPA's I'm sure can't really discuss their issues because people probably wouldn't understand how they feel or see any issue. "What, you're fighting from a booth far away from the war? So scary!" You'd be surprised how many pilots just hate RPA operators and refuse to consider them worthy fellow pilots since they're not out in the field yet they do the same job. They get a lot of shit and do a weird psychological job.

It's a very touchy subject and one the military and CIA definitely need to address because this shit can end badly.
 

DBLT4P

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thaluikhain said:
Atrocious Joystick said:
I don't really see being able to bomb a place while sitting comfy a thousand miles away being that different from a general ordering the taking of a hill, an action that will cost many lives, while he himself sits safe and cozy way behind the front lines.
Very much this. The person deciding on the attack is far from the pointy end in any event. It didn't stop the people at the pointy end from following orders.
I'll add that the likely alternatives to using a drone are:

A conventional piloted airstrike - involves putting pilots and very expensive aircraft at risk, along with increased fuel consumption and maintenance costs, decreased loiter time, and bad decisions due to combat stress, high likelihood of collateral damage. Usually requires a spotter or "air combat controller" to direct the aircrafts attacks.

Infantry assault - slow (especially in difficult terrain like A-stan), very dangerous for the dozen or more people involved, again high likelihood of collateral damage.

Assassination via sniper team - (exceedingly rare) very time consuming, but rather exact with a lower chance of collateral damage, extremely dangerous, inefficient use of skilled operators unless targets are very high value, which is really the only time they might be used.

Artillery strike - killing is even more dehumanized, artillery teams don't even know what they are shooting at, their targets are miles away and out of "line of sight," an artillery team's commander gets a radio call asking him to hit a square on a grid (literally battleship style) calculations are made, the howitzers are aimed, the cord gets pulled and something miles away disappears. High collateral damage risk, as well as potential friendly fire risk if the strike is called too close to other friendly units in the area, or even the unit that called it (called a "danger close") this risk is lessened substantially with the use of "smart shells" (GPS satellite guided munitions, but these are very expensive, the Excalibur guided artillery rounds cost over a million $USD each) also usually requires a spotter in the area like a conventional airstrike.

Considering the alternatives, the use of drones is the safest (for friendlies and noncombatants), and most strategically, tactically, and economically sound option at the disposal of the US and allied coalition forces.

Edit: In my opinion, at least
 

Lovely Mixture

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Mechanization of war is the issue I always think of when UAVs get brought up.

We need an intelligent game to handle this issue. If it involved PMCs, Yahtzee would be proud.
 

NightmareExpress

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Today, your enemies.
Tomorrow, your pizza.
The day after, your rights.

Drones replace the pilot, which is good (unless you're now out of a job). It ends up with the life of one less on the line and the vehicle can be designed without the need for a person being inside. I'm pretty sure it ends up being more efficient in terms of getting more drones out there than it does pilot per aircraft, but don't quote me on that.

However, the rapid production, mobilization and utilization can prove to be concerning.
Approaching the "big brother" level of concerning, where they could be used to hyper-police cities. When more work is done on AI and implemented on such devices as the drones, stuff that you see in Terminator, Robocop and what have you can become a reality. In addition to war becoming more grand in scale and people becoming more dehumanized to violence, you get the looming threat of rogue AIs and hackers.

Every advancement when it comes to war and protection makes the future less safe.
Just look at all the tension after the atom bomb was realized, all the bans from the Geneva convention following WWI & II.
This is why drones and the future of warfare is being met with caution. I imagine a vast amount more could be typed, but this is simply the stuff off the top of me head.
 

manic_depressive13

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I don't know. Maybe slaughtering people with high tech drones while they desperately try to resist using improvised weapons and flaming bottles doesn't sit right with some people.
 

BiscuitTrouser

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Ultratwinkie said:
A pilot getting shot down is one less pilot. A drone shot down means nothing. An infinite military is a scary thing, and can turn ugly very quickly.
At 4.5 million a pop i dont think UAV's will allow for an infinite military. We already have biological weapons that you can literally BREED for the cost of nutrient paste to allow mitosis. Thats scary enough by itself surely? Thats a weapon you can deploy for the cost of a single missile which is $569,000.

I mean hell we already have bomb desposal robots. And while a human life is infinitely more valuable the robots are not cheap nor are they disposable. The idea we could send drones willy nilly is crazy. An economy would need to be immensely strong to afford to waste 4.5 million dollars of kit plus ammunition for that drone lost when it goes down.

Its equally as scary to have a stealth bomber the enemy literally cant even target. The maximum cost there is just a single missile at most. An invulnerable piece of kit is scarier than an unmanned piece of kit.
 

Mycroft Holmes

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1) Automation is exceedingly dangerous from a moral standpoint when you're talking about something that can both spy on people and kill them. Too much power in any one set of hands will ultimately result in abuse.

2) Degrees of separation are very important when killing people. Killing someone with a knife is a traumatizing thing for most people, killing someone with a rifle is easier, killing someone miles away with artillery pretty much phases no one. The more pieces of technology you put in between someone and a kill the more they are likely to do so without considering what they are doing. This is why drone operators have no compunctions about double tapping funerals. Eg. blowing up a funeral and then firing a second set of missiles 10 minutes later at the same target which kills foreign firefighters, EMTs, police and other first responders and rescue workers. Drones make it easier to commit war crimes.

3) There is potential for abuse from hacking or theft of access codes that does not exist with manned vehicles. A lot of times our government and our military has woefully out of date network security. Even when they have good security, their staff is often incompetent and the bulk of hacking is preying on the idiocy of people who have access already. "Hello, this is the county password inspector!"
 

LetalisK

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I've always seen UAVs as a far more useful observation tool than a tool for killing. Their missiles aren't exactly the best ordinance we have available, especially for an aircraft.

Zachary Amaranth said:
ReadyAmyFire said:
I'm a student engineer and we've spent a lot of the past three years talking about UAVs, even designed and built a miniature one this year, and at no point has any lecturer mentioned that there were ethical considerations to their use, so all this talk of banning them has gone well over my head (pun totally intended).
Do your drones fire missiles that can be authorised through non-standard channels to be legally used on American citizens?

Have your drones been used to kill American citizens, including ones we have now admitted were likely innocent and NOT the intended target?
No, obviously her UAVs didn't, which is why she's admitting her own ignorance of the controversy and asking to be filled in about it. She was not saying that because of her experience there weren't ethical considerations, so I don't see why you had to throw in the snarky questions.
 

II2

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Couple points to consider:

- UAV may stand for Unmanned Arial Vehicle, but they are directly operated remotely by two pilots, per craft, usually at the airfield of a FOB. They do have a auto piloting programs, but despite becoming more comfortable using them, nobody wants to relegated combat instructions to an algorithm. (as of yet)

- Combat ready UAVs typically carry 4x Air-To-Surface Hellfire missiles, if memory serves. While expensive weaponry, the cost of that versus more a loaded, fueled and manned jet plane or attack helicopter is significantly less, while offering a powerful ground solution.

- They are fairly noisy. They are small, RC planes, after all. People can hear them buzzing overhead, without much trouble. The frequency of their presence and (relative) infrequency of their attacks in patrolled areas in combat zones is used to make the enemy fear them, without actually hiding from them.

----

I'm kinda neutral/split about them... I can understand why logistically and tactically they are advantageous, but there is a disturbing quality to them and as much as I'm glad our allied forces have them backing them up, I would feel much differently about our forces having to face them.
 

LetalisK

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Sorry about the double post, but this caught my eye after the fact.

DBLT4P said:
Artillery strike - killing is even more dehumanized, artillery teams don't even know what they are shooting at, their targets are miles away and out of "line of sight," an artillery team's commander gets a radio call asking him to hit a square on a grid (literally battleship style) calculations are made, the howitzers are aimed, the cord gets pulled and something miles away disappears. High collateral damage risk, as well as potential friendly fire risk if the strike is called too close to other friendly units in the area, or even the unit that called it (called a "danger close") this risk is lessened substantially with the use of "smart shells" (GPS satellite guided munitions, but these are very expensive, the Excalibur guided artillery rounds cost over a million $USD each) also usually requires a spotter in the area like a conventional airstrike.
Oh goody, my specialty. Random bits of info time. First, not sure if you meant this since it seemed a little confusing how you phrased it, but danger close is not exclusive to the spotting unit. If any friendly unit is within a certain radius of the target it's danger close. Second, don't mind Excalibur. It's an impractical political manuever by cannon artillery to appear still relevant in the eyes of politicians who have a boner over precision munitions. We already have artillery that is more than capable of doing precision strikes at extreme distances(MLRS/HIMARS) and Excalibur is, imo, a waste of money. But, Congress holds the purse strings and you have to appease them.

Considering the alternatives, the use of drones is the safest (for friendlies and noncombatants), and most strategically, tactically, and economically sound option at the disposal of the US and allied coalition forces.
Safest for the pilot, yes. For everyone else? Not really. UAVs are slow, so it makes it harder to keep up with moving enemies and their munitions aren't great for attacking structures. Between Hellfires being naturally more prone to errors, the more advanced targeting suites on conventional aircraft, more advanced guidance systems on their munitions, and the more advanced training/experience of a conventional pilot, a conventional bomber pilot can drop a much larger munition and have less collateral damage. UAVs are great for observation, but they're almost like a last resort for killing something in fire support. All of this could be improved, though. They are the more economically sound option, though.

Edit: borked the quoting
 

flarty

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ReadyAmyFire said:
First, apologies if this should be in the Politics section, I was in two minds about where to stick it.

Mr. Obama is in my part of the world this week for this G8 craic, and my facebook is awash with people complaining about the usual stuff, economics, middle east, etc. But there are at least half a dozen people saying he needs to get the US military to stop using drones. I don't want to appear ignorant to people I know which is why I'm asking here.

I'm a student engineer and we've spent a lot of the past three years talking about UAVs, even designed and built a miniature one this year, and at no point has any lecturer mentioned that there were ethical considerations to their use, so all this talk of banning them has gone well over my head (pun totally intended).
The problem some deem unacceptable, is that targeted killings using predator drones outside of war zones, amounts to nothing more than execution without trial. It also calls into the question of violating international borders in certain situations.

The more real problem that everyone should be concerned with is the accuracy of such a program. Many innocent bystanders have been killed by the predator drone program including many children. This serves nothing but to create more hatred for the west and push the victims family to extremism and hey presto another terrorist.
 
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I didn't read through the whole thread, so some of this may be redundant.

There are five issues with drones, none of which really have to do with their droniness (that is, it's a remote-control weapons platform). They have to do with some of the secondary effects of drone use. Specifically:

~ states the ratio [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan#Statistics] is ten or so civilians per one high-value target, which is still abysmal but not at terrible as the fifty I stated. It's possible that the figure I game was accidentally pulled by the press from a specific incident in which 50 civilians were killed in a single strike.[/footnote] per every one high-value target which is ridiculous for post-cold-war action. This statistic came up following the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre when the industrialized world freaked out over the deaths of twenty-odd children and yet ignored the high toll of child deaths by drone strikes (implying harshly that we only care about children if they're white and in the first world). The Obama Administration's position has been to doubt the reports of high civilian casualty counts, though there has been a stated intention to phase out drone strikes by the CIA, and instead keep them in the hands of the military, which holds a much higher standard of restraint in the use of force.

~ Executions and Assassinations: The targeting of US Citizen and Yemeni imam Anwar al-Awlaki [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki] on September 30, 2011 has raised concerns about the legality of extra judicial executions of American citizens. al-Awlaki was given no trial or even a tribunal, yet was specifically targeted. al-Awlaki's sixteen-year old son was also slain in the strike and there have been two other American casualties due to drone strikes, though they were not specifically targeted. But this also raises the issue of targeting specific people at all (as opposed to units or commanding officers). In international law this falls into the purview of assassination and is regarded as really bad form. During the Cold War, both the US and the USSR had policies against targeting specific individuals after our failed attempt on Fidel Castro. That the US now demonstrates a willingness to target specific VIPs has shown the degree to which our ethics and commitment to just warfare doctrine has deteriorated.

~ Killbots: As things are, drones are controlled by an active human being who has to authorize each stike on a target. But a number of unmanned weapons platforms are being developed with the capability to identify valid targets and attack autonomously. A good portion of science fiction denotes this as the first step in making a Iran Air Flight 655 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetic_revolt] as a result. The circumstance are complicated, but incidents like this also show that such systems are not infallible. Similarly, a system of automated turrets have been developed in Australia that will open fire on anything that moves in a designated area (meant to be an area-denial system as an alternative to landmines). So we still need to nail down what kind of autonomy is or isn't allowed in warfare.

~ Security: One of the more obvious problems with remote-control weapons is that they're prone to getting hacked. It was believed when we armed predators with missiles that they would use a robust encryption system, but this proved questionable when police prototypes were hacked and stolen by college students from the local academy, using the same protocol that is used for armed, military Predators. This does not bode well for our weapons presently out on the field. Obviously we need to improve the security encryption that we use for our drones, but more encryption requires more data bandwidth which reduces performance of communications, especially when weather or countermeasures interfere. We're more likely to send up insecure drones at the risk of them getting hacked and captured rather than waiting until our technology is strong enough to ensure a stable, secure communications line.

~ Domestic Use: Now that drones have been so successful as a military tool, local law enforcement wants a piece of the action, less to strike at targets (though some crowd-control ideas have come to mind) and more to better police their precincts. The problem is, our police are already overenthusiastic about using privacy invasive tools without reasonable oversight or respect of civil privacy, and they've already proven they're more interested in getting collars rather than keeping the peace or seeing justice done. We're now in an era where charges are made up to serve corporate interests, and divisions of law enforcement are being used as mercenary forces for corporate enforcement. Why would we want to trust them with technology we know will be used to peep through our windows?

238U
 

OneCatch

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BiscuitTrouser said:
Ultratwinkie said:
A pilot getting shot down is one less pilot. A drone shot down means nothing. An infinite military is a scary thing, and can turn ugly very quickly.
At 4.5 million a pop i dont think UAV's will allow for an infinite military. We already have biological weapons that you can literally BREED for the cost of nutrient paste to allow mitosis. Thats scary enough by itself surely? Thats a weapon you can deploy for the cost of a single missile which is $569,000.

I mean hell we already have bomb desposal robots. And while a human life is infinitely more valuable the robots are not cheap nor are they disposable. The idea we could send drones willy nilly is crazy. An economy would need to be immensely strong to afford to waste 4.5 million dollars of kit plus ammunition for that drone lost when it goes down.

Its equally as scary to have a stealth bomber the enemy literally cant even target. The maximum cost there is just a single missile at most. An invulnerable piece of kit is scarier than an unmanned piece of kit.
For the price of one F-35 you can get thirty Predators, and if you were to, say, use half the USAF budget for drones, you get 15,000 brand new ones per year. For the sake of balance, it's worth pointing out that the more advanced Reaper does cost a fair bit more - about the same as a light jet.

But really, $5-20 million per unit is really cheap for airborne kit, so while it isn't a literally infinite supply it's certainly got the potential to be very significant.

Bioweapons can't practically be used for various reasons, stealth bombers are overrated and stupidly expensive - the stealth coat probably doesn't work in the rain, and for the initial price of a single stealth bomber you could have 200-odd Predators instead. An interesting comparison is that the routine monthly maintenance on a B-2 Spirit is only a little more than the flyaway cost of a Predator.

As you point out, a drone only costs as much as about 8 cruise missiles, but can carry similar payload, to different targets, discriminatingly, per sortie, and most importantly do so repeatedly.

Hence why they look pretty damn attractive for various low intensity conflicts, which is why some kind of international law or treaty governing their use is needed.
 

Elementary - Dear Watson

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shootthebandit said:
Ultratwinkie said:
thaluikhain said:
Yeah, it's a bit odd. Beyond airstrikes with armed drones, they had airstrikes with planes with people in them. People killed by them are no less dead.

But drones are new and exciting and somehow different.
They can be different.

Pilots are a resource, a valuable one that forced the invention of these things.

How long before these things get completely automated or streamlined to the point one person can control a whole group?
Google "taranis" its already in development
Taranis isn't fully automated... Its 'semi-autonomous' capability involves it flying between preset waypoints... just like any plane with autopilot can. And nearly all UAVs currently availiable can too.

The 'choosing it's own targets' is just image recognition technology designed to highlight potential targets based off of a generic of specialised target set to commanders to aid and speed up the targeting process. Look up the bomb Brimstone on google... that has been out for years, and once fired literally will choose it's own target based of of the image it sees... It is a very dificult weapon to use in that mode, and will usually just be lased onto a target to avoid unecessary collateral.

OT: The use of drone in modern warfare is in fact no different to the use of any weapon in a targeting sense. In fact when chosing a weapon to target, and when building target packs, we don't actually care what the weapon's platform is, we just care about the weapon! Is it a paveway IV? Or a Hellfire? Whether the PWIV is from a drone or a Tornado it doesn't matter, the process is the same, and the outcome is the same too. Just because the aircraft doesn't have a person in it doesn't mean the weapon is less accurate, or that it has a higher chance for collateral, it is all down to the accuracy of the bomb dropped.

The only question of ethics comes from the way the US employ such an asset. They seem to disregard international airpace and boundries to chase their own goals, and this is a legal issue. Although often it is in failed states which is why they can legally get away with it. This is the only part of the morality of weaponised drones I would question.

Also, large drones in general do not comply with UK air laws, and are deemed unsafe to fly in the UK airspace. This is due to the UK's airspace being the busiest in the world, and the safety issues that come with this. Although I cannot comment on suggestions to improve this, as I am unfortunately not up to speed with how all the rules and regs and air safety zones work! :S

(EDIT: I will also like to quickly point out that it is not ileagal to kill civilians as collateral in a warzone, and that, if the country permits it and the target is deemed of a high enough value and proportionality then they can be written off as acceptible risk. As I said though, this is a countries choice, and most choose to set the acceptible risk to 0, meaning that all civilian deaths are genuine errors.}