When a friend tells you he "does not agree" with the concept of evolution

WanderingFool

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Well, either your friend means something that didnt read out in your recounting of the event, or that "certified Genius" means the same as a high IQ, just because you are capable of being smart, doesnt mean you are smart. Course thats a rather mean way to look at it, so Im going to assume we just dont have clear enough details.
 

Sharpiez

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The problem with these arguments is they usually never get above scoffing each other.

The Cadet said:
LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FACT AND AN OPINION.

GAH YOU PEOPLE ARE DRIVING ME CRAZY.
Even if I accept Evolutionary theory absolutely and wholeheartedly, it is not fact. It is the most LIKELY theory as discovered by repeatingly trying to prove it false. That is science.
 

boag

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The Cadet said:
LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FACT AND AN OPINION.

GAH YOU PEOPLE ARE DRIVING ME CRAZY.
First learn how to be mature and respectful, then we can talk about facts and opinions.
 

NightlyNews

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Salad Is Murder said:
If nothing else, ask him how he feels about the fact that human existence is a powerful evolutionary force on other organisms...because, holy shit, we are totally all up in that.
Humans are a powerful adaptational force on other organisms. We aren't affecting other beings evolution at all.
 

zefiewings

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Jamie Wroe said:
Ah, brilliant. Can we have this proof then please?
If you have proof, we will debate it to the best of our abilities and can have a nice discussion.
No. I really don't think most here are capable of such a discussion. (by which I mean nice.) My point was this and this alone; "respect him of his different opinion." I did not bring up my beliefs for this very reason. I don't care what you, or others think. I think it is great you have strong opinions, they shape who you are. I did not try and force my view down anyone's through, why should yours be forced down mine? This thread was not "what are your views on evolution" or "why don't people believe in evolution" It was "what should I do about a friend who doesn't believe in evolution". If someone didn't want conflicting views, they would (or should) not have made it a thread.
Now I must go before trolls eat me alive.
 

Turing '88

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Therumancer said:
Again, I neither believe in the idea, or am trying to sell it. The entire point is simply that such theories exist and have nothing to do with religion. If someone says they disagree with Evolution that doesn't nessicarly mean that they are argueing in favor of a supernatural or religious origin for humanity.

However, for the sake of arguement the general point being made about the lack of evidence is that there is plenty of evidence, but due to the competitive nature of academic circles the popular theories with a lot of supporters and people who make a living off of them through teaching or whatever wind up seeing things dismissed far more easily than they should be.

You are however correct that the level of conspiricy involved in most "cover up" theories would be impossible to maintain. Especially seeing as the goverment wouldn't just mess with the people involved to get them to remain silent, they would probably just have them killed. Not to mention the entire issue of why they would bother to cover it up to begin with, the general "it would cause hysteria" excuse doesn't hold much weight overall.
Fair enough. I just honestly believe in the scientific method and hate the attacks these kinds of people make on the integrity of scientists. Admittedly the truth is sometimes not welcomed as much as it should be, that's just human nature, but to suggest people would or even could keep this kind of a revelation under wraps is staggering.

I know people who believe in this kind of stuff and the lengths they will go to mentally to explain to themselves why science hasn't accepted these theories is unbelievable.
 

Hugga_Bear

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So I'm going to run through a few basic things which lend heavy credence to the theory of evolution, since people are asking stupid questions, I'll sit on them at the end. So here's a neat experiment which I think came up earlier but may have been overlooked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

Lenski's experiment is famous and one of my personal favourite experiments of all time. Extremely simple but extremely clever. It shows irrefutably that adaptations are swift and more importantly that over time changes can occur in a population which lead to vastly differing organisms.
Proof that it can happen is not proof that it did happen. Enter the fossil record. Now we are extraordinarily lucky to have any fossils and considering their rarity the abundance is a veritable blessing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
There are a few 'transitional' fossils. Bear in mind transitional means little in evolution because it is slow gradient which I'll come to in a second. Basically fossils show (and these are just organised to easily show this) that over time things have changed.

Slow gradient, it means that the changes are exceedingly slow, cripplingly so? Well, only in those that die out! Mutation (coincidentally frequency of mutation is why sexual reproduction is beneficial. Mutants are we get to enjoy sex) leads to changes but they are almost always tiny, miniscule changes. The examples for this are getting ridiculous but suffice to say any textbook or even straight book on the subject will provide a plethora of examples where minute changes lead to something impressive. The eye is always a favourite, unsurprisingly and many examples exist for it's progress.

Further evidence for evolution is the mistakes we have, my personal favourite is the recurrent laryngeal nerve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cH2bkZfHw4
It is ridiculous isn't it?

Other evidence is the eye (surprisingly, think about how it's laid out, really think about it, something is the wrong way around...). The human appendix (uses: randomly kills you) is a vestigial organ like the coccyx is a vestigial tail slowly going away.

Now, that's a bit to chew through but trust me it doesn't even begin to scrape the surface of evidence, it really is tremendous, there is so much evidence out there for evolution it will take you years to view it all in it's entirety. That's why books summarise it.
Still, here are some of the more popular counter arguments and why they fail:

"Monkeys still exist, so why do humans exist as well?!"
Addressed in my other post, apes are a branch of the same ancestors as us, they are not our ancestors themselves. More importantly we aren't actually in direct competition.

"There are gaps in the fossil record!"
Yes, expectedly so. The fossil record is vast and almost comprehensive, the few remaining gaps are more than adequately explained. More importantly a gap doesn't mean anything, it's a lack of specific evidence rather than evidence against the theory itself.

"The Bible says X"
Well, the Koran says Y and on this bit of paper I've written Z. Religion is not the arbiter of truth or more precisely a book is not. It's a book (or collection of for the Bible), written by men thousands of years ago. It contains factual, historical and prophetical inaccuracies, it is not correct simply by virtue of it being correct, we don't do circular reasoning.

"Some scientists don't believe it!"
Right, define scientist first because a doctorate in theology from the theological university of theology doesn't qualify you as a scientist, much less an evolutionary biologist.
Furthermore the few who do disagree with the theory are extremely rare, there was a letter signed by some 200 people once which was meant to be those who were against evolution, investigation showed the majority were not actually aware of this. If I recall correctly after the investigation only a few names, literally, remained. The rest had no claim to scientific knowledge or were pure misled as to the thing they were signing.

There are numerate others but suffice to say I'm not doing them all. I will address any I see in this thread from here on out though. I will NOT provide further evidence for evolution unless I feel I should, there is a fair bit here and if you want to know the facts you should read a book by an expert.

tl;dr if this is too long for you then you have no grounds to argue about evolution. I mean that honestly. If you want to talk about how evolution is wrong I expect you to have a basic grounding in the theory itself. This covers a few common arguments from both sides, it's worth a quick browse and apologies but I don't know how to make the spaces larger to make it easier to sift through.
 

USSR

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"Omg.. someone smart doesn't believe in evolution? wtf!"

His beliefs have nothing to do with his intelligence.
Honestly.
This thread should be closed for being ungodly stupid and flame-attracting.
 

Dango

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If someone believes in something that you don't, it really shouldn't matter, especially if that person is your friend.

Hugga_Bear said:
Thank you to you and several others for turning this thread into a religious flame war. Because we definitely don't already have a different forum section for forcing your opinions on others.
 

Turing '88

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zefiewings said:
Jamie Wroe said:
Ah, brilliant. Can we have this proof then please?
If you have proof, we will debate it to the best of our abilities and can have a nice discussion.
No. I really don't think most here are capable of such a discussion. (by which I mean nice.) My point was this and this alone; "respect him of his different opinion." I did not bring up my beliefs for this very reason. I don't care what you, or others think. I think it is great you have strong opinions, they shape who you are. I did not try and force my view down anyone's through, why should yours be forced down mine? This thread was not "what are your views on evolution" or "why don't people believe in evolution" It was "what should I do about a friend who doesn't believe in evolution". If someone didn't want conflicting views, they would (or should) not have made it a thread.
Now I must go before trolls eat me alive.
I am not this opinionated on everything. If we were to have a discussion on politics for example, I would think no less of you or anyone else for their opinions as there are no right or wrong answers. We can only make educated guesses coloured by our own personal biases.

When it comes to science however there is a right or wrong answer. Either evolution happens or it doesn't. The evidence overwhelmingly says it does, so a theory is put forward that fits current evidence and makes predictions that can be tested. That theory too is either right or wrong, there is no middle ground. We can't always know the answers, we can certainly pick which theory fits the evidence best though and thus far nobody on this thread has been able to poke any holes in sciences current understanding of evolution.
 

foolish snails

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If by this he means that there are some things that humans are not meant to understand, then that's just his outlook on life. Personally, I enjoy trying to figure out or learn how things work, from my tv remote to much larger ideas like the minutia of evolution. I don't understand people who subscribe to this belief. The knowledge of where we came from is something I would be very interested to have, even if it's not what I previously believed or expected.
 

Hugga_Bear

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USSR said:
"Omg.. someone smart doesn't believe in evolution? wtf!"

His view on evolution doesn't have anything to do with his intelligence.
Evolution is a theory, not a fact.
Honestly.
Look up scientific theory, there's a difference between the colloquial usage of the word and the actual definition.

A scientific theory is one which is supported from multiple sources with large amounts of evidence and no strong opposing evidence. At it's basic this means lots of supporting evidence, for evolution it has bordered into the obscene. The supporting evidence in terms of papers alone is over 2 million now I believe.

It's not just a theory, it's a scientific theory and that means a lot. Don't dismiss something because you don't understand it.
 

bakan

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zefiewings said:
Jamie Wroe said:
Ah, brilliant. Can we have this proof then please?
If you have proof, we will debate it to the best of our abilities and can have a nice discussion.
No. I really don't think most here are capable of such a discussion. (by which I mean nice.) My point was this and this alone; "respect him of his different opinion." I did not bring up my beliefs for this very reason. I don't care what you, or others think. I think it is great you have strong opinions, they shape who you are. I did not try and force my view down anyone's through, why should yours be forced down mine? This thread was not "what are your views on evolution" or "why don't people believe in evolution" It was "what should I do about a friend who doesn't believe in evolution". If someone didn't want conflicting views, they would (or should) not have made it a thread.
Now I must go before trolls eat me alive.
You brought up your belief as soon as you mentioned you are a creationist which in my opinion is one of the worst things you can be, rejecting everyone and everything which doesn't conform to your interpretation of scripture.
And stop dodging everyone who wants to have a solid discussion, oh wait that's what creationists do...
 

Xorph

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IsraelRocks said:
Me and one of my collage friends were having a discussion that came to be about evolution at some point. what you need to understand before replying is that this guy is probably one of the smartest people out there, the guy is a certified genius.
He practices Judaism up to a certain degree (separates meat a dairy and other stuff) but calling him religious will be a vast exaggeration.

So when this guy, who is probably the smartest guy I ever met told me he didn't believe that humans are apart of evolution it blew me away. To make things worse he said "there are some things that humans are meant NOT to understand. and we are both Comp-Sci majors so rational thought is a given.

So..... WTF?!?!
Since he's at least somewhat religious, I think he simply believes that God created humans. As such they wouldn't be a part of evolution, since they were created (and didn't, say, evovle from monkeys or something similar). With regards to the not understanding, think of the Big Bang Theory. We don't actually know what created the universe. All of this matter wasn't simple here, it had to have something that created it. But on the same note we have no means of determining what that was and probably never will.
 

Salad Is Murder

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enzilewulf said:
Salad Is Murder said:
"Certified genius" that chooses to ignore empirical data with a hand waved "we are not supposed to understand"?

Okay, there's x number of rational explanations:

A) Your friend is messing with you.
B) Your friend is misinformed/ignorant.
C) Your friend is an idiot.

My science gut is really pulling for C here, but the other two shouldn't be ruled out without further data into the system.
I don't get it. Why is he a idiot because he doesn't believe in what you do? Maybe he simply wants to stay off the subject and he likes the moral teaching of his religion. I believe in evolution yet if you ask me I will say I follow teaching of god because of moral use. Religion (if taken the right way) can make you into a great person. Even if you don't choose to believe in it religion has some things that maybe a person should still live by regardless. I know I simply don't like the subject just like Politics. Why? because it usually leads to me ending up looking like the dick head because I called some one a idiot because he doesn't believe in what I do. Which I will never do. Even though there is proof I still would respect his views. Yet I am sure I will just get a "your a idiot too" in return but o well I tried.
You didn't try very hard...after all, "your a idiot too" is really supposed to be "you're an idiot too".
 

Dash-X

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Sharpiez said:
The problem with these arguments is they usually never get above scoffing each other.

Snip.
This.

Personally, I don't see how or why it matters. All the drama that comes from trying to determine where stuff came from just seems pointless.

What I will say is this: I find it funny that people who decry faith and champion science and evolution never realize that they are engaging in an act of faith themselves. In the big picture sense, Science is a religion too. Its core tenets ultimately being quantization and rationalization of what can be experienced with the senses and proof or disproof based on empirical evidence and fact. It is held on assumption that what is experienced through the senses is reality. Last time I checked, reality was neither proven nor unproven. We cannot say for certain that we are not networked brains in jars just as we cannot say for certain that we are.

What I also find funny is that when told this, they [scientific folks] react in much the same fashion as religious folks who are told that evolution is the only truth.

If religion provides the illusion of love and purpose, then I put forward that science provides the illusion of knowledge and control.