I went with a destruction/conjeration build that focused more on melee combat via the summon[weapon] spell. It works well enough, but i do keep various healing spells in my quick select just in case.
When a game doesn't facilitate your specific play style (Skyrim)
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Bethseda games modding support is definitely a commendable feature, but you're making it sound like having a vanila magic system that a big chunk of your userbase (both console and PC) believe is trash is a feature. There's absolutely no reason a game cant be moddable and also excellent by itselfRiddle78 said:
I like vanilla magic in Skyrim. I'm sorry to say but you were just doing it wrong. Shield spells are garbage for pure mages, and a conjuration should always be your first spell. And it should be done out of combat otherwise the cast basically just adds a bunch of aggro on you.
Skyrim's default RPG mechanics are awful; if you have the PC version, I can recommend you some mods if you like. Just let me know.
Deus Ex Human Revolution: "What do you mean you don't really like guns and want to take out enemies with stealth? You some kind of ******?"
Deus Ex Human Revolution: "What do you mean you don't really like guns and want to take out enemies with stealth? You some kind of ******?"
Agreed. If Bethesda just took a fucking second to think about the design of their skill systems, modders wouldn't have to fix them. Honestly, I think Bethesda should just bite the bullet and hire the guys who make those giant overhauls; they seem to know more about game design than Bethesda does.The Bucket said:
I love that CM too, it was a great one. But I don't think it's Bethesda not liking specific builds. Remembering a just 2 rules, every build I've tried is possible. Rule 1: Pick 5 or 6 skills and ignore them entirely (or at least until level 30 or so.) This is enough to keep you from "wasting levels" and will keep the enemies from getting overpowered until the dragonborn is so overpowered he's basically untouchable. And rule 2: You have to have a combat skill of some type. Other than that, just about anything works. If there were a rule three that breaks all other rules, stealth as a primary skill makes any build totally OP.gmaverick019 said:lol fuck I completely forgot about that comic, great stuff.IceForce said:Yah, Critical Miss did a (rather amusing) comic regarding that:Kyrian007 said:
Leveled enemies are a cruel mistress.
OT: it sucks that this happens, unfortunately I think the people at bethesda might just NOT enjoy your build of a character, so they don't think to test/think about it in that way, so it juts falls to the wayside as side/support skills and nothing more.
fair enough about the combat skill, not that I particularly disagree with it, but due to single player/non-party constraints, it's hard to *fully* roleplay if your character is forced to level a combat skill, but I suppose that's more to do with bethesda's lack of good speech/charisma/conversation writers than it is them not paying attention to it.Kyrian007 said:I love that CM too, it was a great one. But I don't think it's Bethesda not liking specific builds. Remembering a just 2 rules, every build I've tried is possible. Rule 1: Pick 5 or 6 skills and ignore them entirely (or at least until level 30 or so.) This is enough to keep you from "wasting levels" and will keep the enemies from getting overpowered until the dragonborn is so overpowered he's basically untouchable. And rule 2: You have to have a combat skill of some type. Other than that, just about anything works. If there were a rule three that breaks all other rules, stealth as a primary skill makes any build totally OP.gmaverick019 said:lol fuck I completely forgot about that comic, great stuff.IceForce said:Yah, Critical Miss did a (rather amusing) comic regarding that:Kyrian007 said:
Leveled enemies are a cruel mistress.
OT: it sucks that this happens, unfortunately I think the people at bethesda might just NOT enjoy your build of a character, so they don't think to test/think about it in that way, so it juts falls to the wayside as side/support skills and nothing more.
To be fair I personally found magic to be even worse in Oblivion. To the point of near-irrelevancy. The fact that ANY magic AT ALL is usable in Skyrim was a pleasant surprise.
The Elder Scrolls games seem to have this as a general problem though in terms of balancing styles. In the real world I do archery (well I used to, its been a couple of years). So when I first started Oblivion back in the day I wanted to be a sneaky archer assassin type character. Then I realised bows were pretty damn awful, even with the sneak attack bonus. And you basically had to use a sword or something.
In contrast using bows in Skyrim is the most hilariously, absurdly overpowered thing you can do pretty much. At least in my experience. Everything just dies in a hail of arrows.
Edit:
The Elder Scrolls games seem to have this as a general problem though in terms of balancing styles. In the real world I do archery (well I used to, its been a couple of years). So when I first started Oblivion back in the day I wanted to be a sneaky archer assassin type character. Then I realised bows were pretty damn awful, even with the sneak attack bonus. And you basically had to use a sword or something.
In contrast using bows in Skyrim is the most hilariously, absurdly overpowered thing you can do pretty much. At least in my experience. Everything just dies in a hail of arrows.
Edit:
Its probably a reference to the fact that in Deus Ex HR you kept getting thrown into boss battles which forced you to fight straight-up. So if you'd been taking any approach other than dumping everything into direct combat abilities and guns you would have a nightmare of a time.Happyninja42 said:
Ugh. PerkusMaximus is rubbish. I've been using that mod for a playthru recently and it makes anything but Sneak+Archery unplayable. I'm currently trying a Heavy Armor+One-Handed+Blocking character and she's worthless. How I got to the end of the civil war quest line is beyond me. I can only imagine that as soon as I have to solo a Blood Dragon it'll snap me up and thrash me about like a leopard seal with a penguin.freaper said:
The armor actually offers less protection than in vanilla until you put 15+ perk points into it. I'm level 20ish with at least 12 of my 20 perk points split between Heavy Armor and One-Handed and it's hopeless. I do no damage and I take very nearly full damage. With the equivalent of Exquisite Plate Steel, I get 15% damage reduction on a good day.
I have had that problem as well. But really the only way to get a good late game character is to pick one or two skills and focus on them. Otherwise you will hit a huge wall pretty fast (maybe around lvl 18-20).
I made a pure destruction mage and I had a blast. I never had any problems killing things although mana becomes an issue, but there are a few ways around that. Beat most of the game with it, I forget what level he is, must be at least in the 30s. Late game becomes more about kiting and strategy.
I would restart with your character but just do resto and conjuration only. Focus more on conjuration till it gets strong, then start buffing your summons and you should be golden. Conjuration is pretty good in Skyrim.
Plus, I am pretty sure Oblivion had more variety too.
I made a pure destruction mage and I had a blast. I never had any problems killing things although mana becomes an issue, but there are a few ways around that. Beat most of the game with it, I forget what level he is, must be at least in the 30s. Late game becomes more about kiting and strategy.
I would restart with your character but just do resto and conjuration only. Focus more on conjuration till it gets strong, then start buffing your summons and you should be golden. Conjuration is pretty good in Skyrim.
Really? I found Oblivion way more fun for magic! First, you get spellmaking. Was always fun making super strong spells. Second, you don't need to "equip" spells like in Skyrim, so you can go sword and board and still hurl stuff.Lightspeaker said:
Plus, I am pretty sure Oblivion had more variety too.
This is pretty much why I felt magic was worse in Oblivion: because it wasn't a primary option. It was entirely supplementary. Being a straight up mage was really bad because you were effectively hamstringing yourself.Glongpre said:
Hell, nothing could be a primary option other than sword and board pretty much. Magic was too jerky and weak to use as a primary weapon, archery was awful, 2-handers were okay but pretty slow and didn't offer much over 1H, you COULD go 1H without a shield (and in fact I did for a large part of it) but honestly not throwing a shield on there was just giving yourself a disadvantage.
I liked that Skyrim opened it up a bit. Its not perfect but still...
Try the Requiem mod. It's really hard, and requires some finnicky setup, but once you get it working it's worth it. The author totally overhauls the ENTIRE GAME. Fully replaced enemy spawns, all new spells, fully reworked perk system. The difficulty and settings do require tweaking if you're not an insane person, but I highly recommend it.
Did you ever try spellmaking? You could 100% stunlock any enemy in the game. I have no idea where you're coming from, spellcasting was by far the strongest thing in Oblivion. Personally, I always liked going 2-hander and magic.Lightspeaker said:
You cannot triumph in Skyrim focussed only on two skill trees. It would be like trying to beat the game with just lockpicking and alchemy.SantoUno said:
You can approach combat in one of two main ways. Stealth or frontal. If you go frontal assault, you have a choice of style, melee, shields, magic, etc. Conjuration is a good main focus...summoning pets to damage/tank for you and bound weapons that benefit from conjuration perks. Restoration OTOH is a supporting tree. The wards are useful vs casters and circles vs undead, but those are specific enemies and won't help vs. an arrow or sword.
Generally speaking, you need an offensive weapon of some sort. Bound weapons will increase one/two handed skills and will help. Alternatively, destruction magic (certainly with mods) is also competitive and meshes well stylistically with other casting schools. You can also use illusion to keep enemies off you with calm spells or frenzy spells to turn odds in your favour.
You should also have defensive abilities. Wards are great but don't help vs physical damage. In addition, there is light armour or shields, restoration obviously, invisibility and such. They all go up by usage but care should be taken when facing different threats. Rather than pick 2/18 skill trees, consider a "role" of caster, archer, assassin, knight, barbarian, soldier, ranger, druid, etc. Pick some offense, pick some defense, pick support that meshes well with other choices.
I was saying that Deus Ex is structured to reward certain styles of gameplay and punish others, even though the game itself presents each development path like they're each an equally viable choice.Happyninja42 said:
Yeah, I ran into the same problem as you. I wanted to create a Orc Shaman and like you, it was pretty useless.
I always fall back to my bow and arrow. *cries*
I always fall back to my bow and arrow. *cries*
Skyrim is a bit of an overcompensation from Morrowind and Oblivion in the magic department.
In Morrowind, Magic>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stealth>>>Physical Combat. In Oblivion Magic>>>>>Stealth=Physical Combat
So in SKyrim they went with Stealth>>>>>Physical Combat>>>>>Magic.
To be fair, magic, particularly anything involving Alchemy, Destruction or Enchanting is game-breakingly broken once you get a bit into the game and perk it out. Its just not like Morrowind and Oblivion where even a basic Mage was a god among mortals.
In Morrowind, Magic>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stealth>>>Physical Combat. In Oblivion Magic>>>>>Stealth=Physical Combat
So in SKyrim they went with Stealth>>>>>Physical Combat>>>>>Magic.
To be fair, magic, particularly anything involving Alchemy, Destruction or Enchanting is game-breakingly broken once you get a bit into the game and perk it out. Its just not like Morrowind and Oblivion where even a basic Mage was a god among mortals.
Bethesda games are pretty much like that these days, though in your specific instance idk how conjuration wasn't letting you faceroll everything. It was always destruction that failed me because I consider 100% reduction to be cheating, and even with it it still takes too long to kill anything unless you use thunderstorm or abuse the fear perk adding to fire damage exploit.
Conjuration allows you to stand in a totally different location and still damage the enemy. You can stand on a rock and spam summons, though a good frost atronach or storm atronach tends to tear through most groups of enemies. I never really used zombies, but they can be even more effective. Dremora and the the DLC summons are overkill. The sound of 2 frost thralls stomping after you is really annoying, but it makes the game easy mode.
I prefer frost magic, but Skyrim punishes you heavily for using it by giving practically everything NOT on Solsthiem 50% or greater immunity to it.
I finally finished New Vegas recently, and thought I'd go back to Fallout 3. I had forgotten that you can't actually use ANY of the gun sights they already bothered to model into the game, and that energy weapons suck in FO3.
This being a stark contrast to my NV playstyle where I rocked a scoped laser rifle and YSC/183 to snipe things at maximum distance. Also ED-E is the only follower in any of these games I actually like or use.
FO4 looks way better about this stuff though with the weapon mods etc. though.
Dark Souls 2 tended to punish you heavily for liking lightning miracles by nerfing them to the ground, and then giving the DLC mobs heavy magic resistance.
Dragon's Dogma kinda punished you for liking any one class in particular by gimping your stats in every other area than the one the class boosts on leveling. If you love magic archer, good luck getting anything other than good magic defense unless you level up like 3 other classes for 150+ levels and THEN go back to Magic Archer. And if there is a class you really don't like like Mystic Knight or the other 2 tank classes, but you want their passive traits for other classes then you get to waste your time playing classes you hate and getting levels that could have been in a different class that supports your actual playstyle.
In Final Fantasy games with job systems, I always prefer it when changing the job changes your stats appropriately instead of relying on stat gains from all your previous jobs to make your current one any good. The Tactics games punish you heavily for making a fresh unit in a new class instead of training it in like 3 others for half the game so its not a glass cannon or a titanium sponge.
Classically I always felt the original F-Zero punished you for picking any racer other than Samurai Goro, because he was the only one I could even win any race with.
Say what you will about how much Kingdoms of Amulur sucked, at least its combat was solid and you could rock practically any playstyle you wanted with all those options. I prefered giant hammer/chakrams with elemental spells. Unlike Dragons's Dogma, I liked playing a Mystic Knight in that game. The problem with that game is that it was a bad RPG with excellent combat. It could have been a great action game, instead it was a terrible single player MMO that they wanted to parlay into an actual MMO and it failed so hard it became a matter of State.
Conjuration allows you to stand in a totally different location and still damage the enemy. You can stand on a rock and spam summons, though a good frost atronach or storm atronach tends to tear through most groups of enemies. I never really used zombies, but they can be even more effective. Dremora and the the DLC summons are overkill. The sound of 2 frost thralls stomping after you is really annoying, but it makes the game easy mode.
I prefer frost magic, but Skyrim punishes you heavily for using it by giving practically everything NOT on Solsthiem 50% or greater immunity to it.
I finally finished New Vegas recently, and thought I'd go back to Fallout 3. I had forgotten that you can't actually use ANY of the gun sights they already bothered to model into the game, and that energy weapons suck in FO3.
This being a stark contrast to my NV playstyle where I rocked a scoped laser rifle and YSC/183 to snipe things at maximum distance. Also ED-E is the only follower in any of these games I actually like or use.
FO4 looks way better about this stuff though with the weapon mods etc. though.
Dark Souls 2 tended to punish you heavily for liking lightning miracles by nerfing them to the ground, and then giving the DLC mobs heavy magic resistance.
Dragon's Dogma kinda punished you for liking any one class in particular by gimping your stats in every other area than the one the class boosts on leveling. If you love magic archer, good luck getting anything other than good magic defense unless you level up like 3 other classes for 150+ levels and THEN go back to Magic Archer. And if there is a class you really don't like like Mystic Knight or the other 2 tank classes, but you want their passive traits for other classes then you get to waste your time playing classes you hate and getting levels that could have been in a different class that supports your actual playstyle.
In Final Fantasy games with job systems, I always prefer it when changing the job changes your stats appropriately instead of relying on stat gains from all your previous jobs to make your current one any good. The Tactics games punish you heavily for making a fresh unit in a new class instead of training it in like 3 others for half the game so its not a glass cannon or a titanium sponge.
Classically I always felt the original F-Zero punished you for picking any racer other than Samurai Goro, because he was the only one I could even win any race with.
Say what you will about how much Kingdoms of Amulur sucked, at least its combat was solid and you could rock practically any playstyle you wanted with all those options. I prefered giant hammer/chakrams with elemental spells. Unlike Dragons's Dogma, I liked playing a Mystic Knight in that game. The problem with that game is that it was a bad RPG with excellent combat. It could have been a great action game, instead it was a terrible single player MMO that they wanted to parlay into an actual MMO and it failed so hard it became a matter of State.