When can we have a WW2 game with an axis campaign?

[chuckman1]

I'm serious. I know they are the bad guys of the war and all that but I'm sick of only being able to roflstomp Germany and invade Japanese owned islands. Hell there's never even an Italian invasion.

I want a game with campaigns for each faction. This probably could not be happen for a long time but I eventually would like a realistic campaign. As in, my other Japanese dudes are shooting civilians in the ditches.

Can this ever happen?
And if it does will we ever see a portrayal of killing civilians?
Mw2 had you kill civilians on a stupid premise, but they weren't real people really killed so..

 

[Zontar]

Well in Grand Strategy we already do. In the Hearts of Iron series you can play as any country, and axis members tend to be the most popular (I know I've played as Germany or Japan in those games then any others).

 

[Bizzaro Stormy]

Panzer Elite is older and very buggy but I've heard it has been patched and modded to make it more playable. Even buggy it was fun.

 

[Commissar Sae]

Red Orchestra 2 allows you to play as Germans and Japanese, though it is primarily a multiplayer game (exclusively really) so I'm not sure that counts. As for wartime atrocities, you can see them occasionally in the Company of heroes games, though the german campaign was more about valiant last stands against outnumbering enemies than really taking any reprisals against civilians.

So there are games that let you play as the axis, but the campaigns rarely focus on non-frontlines combat, which is where a lot of those atrocities took place.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

Probably in a few more decades, or maybe a century, when something has replaced them as the new boogeyman and they become just a part of history. Today we have no problem having media from the perspective of people who were pretty terrible in their own times, but are just history to us now. I imagine the same will become true of the axis powers, namely Nazi Germany. Who knows, maybe in a couple of hundred years there will be a romanticised Hollywood Nazi, like how pirates are often presented.

 

[theSovietConnection]

It's an older game that can still be found on Steam, but Silent Hunter III is entirely from the perspective of a U-Boat commander during the Battle of the Atlantic. It's more of a simulator then a game you could just pick up and play, though.

 

[L. Declis]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

 

[J Tyran]

when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

Really? There is no denying the horror of what happened, industrialised murder was one of the darkest moments in Human history but almost everyone involved is now dead apart from a few 90yr old vets and a few of 90yr old war criminals (there are eight or nine uncounted for I think) that disappeared and never brought to justice.

I don't see how lawsuits are helping, the survivors and relatives have a genuine, real and undeniable grievance but to keep on raking this up. Isn't it better to just put this aside now and not forget it but use it as an example from history, we have enough war crimes and horrific violence in the world now without dragging that awfulness along with us.

I cannot really comment I guess, I never faced that persecution and hatred and my family didn't and my Grandfather came home from the war as well (lucky for me or I wouldn't be here). If I was a relative of the people that did go through that I could very well feel different.

 

[Mutant1988]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

Nazi Germany was a massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world for everyone that wasn't white and loyal to the Nazi party and it would be for as long as the Nazi party was in power.

Individuals might not have been "evil", but the nation as a whole enabled evil on an incredible scale with a callous systematic approach yet to be matched by anyone (Except maybe Stalin).

Even if you make a sympathetic character, you're still fighting for the wrong side. And that's very personal to the people that did suffer the oppression of Nazi Germany.

I wouldn't mind playing as such a character, but it's disingenuous to state that "Germany" at the time wasn't doing incredible terrible things. The citizens might not have known the extent of the atrocities committed, but they very well knew the policies the Nazi party practised.

 

[J Tyran]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

Nazi Germany was a massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world for everyone that wasn't white and loyal to the Nazi party and it would be for as long as the Nazi party was in power.

Individuals might not have been "evil", but the nation as a whole enabled evil on an incredible scale with a callous systematic approach yet to be matched by anyone (Except maybe Stalin).

Even if you make a sympathetic character, you're still fighting for the wrong side. And that's very personal to the people that did suffer the oppression of Nazi Germany.

I wouldn't mind playing as such a character, but it's disingenuous to state that "Germany" at the time wasn't doing incredible terrible things. The citizens might not have known the extent of the atrocities committed, but they very well knew the policies the Nazi party practised.

What about telltale style game were you make choices and decisions that is about a member of the Wehrmacht or other group being forced/coerced into acts that went against his or her conscience before them taking measures to act against it, a kind of schindler's list were they helped people escape the ghettos or avoid capture (being in the camps would probably be a little to far) could make for an interesting story with a sympathetic character that isn't on the "wrong side" so to speak.

 

[chuckman1]

What about telltale style game were you make choices and decisions that is about a member of the Wehrmacht or other group being forced/coerced into acts that went against his or her conscience before them taking measures to act against it, a kind of schindler's list were they helped people escape the ghettos or avoid capture (being in the camps would probably be a little to far) could make for an interesting story with a sympathetic character that isn't on the "wrong side" so to speak.

I actually like the sound of that. Id like seeing something similar as a shooter or rpg.

I hadn't even thought of pulling it off like that.

 

[J Tyran]

What about telltale style game were you make choices and decisions that is about a member of the Wehrmacht or other group being forced/coerced into acts that went against his or her conscience before them taking measures to act against it, a kind of schindler's list were they helped people escape the ghettos or avoid capture (being in the camps would probably be a little to far) could make for an interesting story with a sympathetic character that isn't on the "wrong side" so to speak.

I actually like the sound of that. Id like seeing something similar as a shooter or rpg.

I hadn't even thought of pulling it off like that.

I posted this:-

Spoiler: In the IS game thread

It would be interesting to play something different than the usual tropes and clichés, like others have posted here they could tell some interesting Human stories. Like how about instead of a minigun wielding unstoppable British or American juggernaut what about a game were you play an Iraqi civilian militia medic during the siege of Amirli? A stealth based game where you only have a pistol or at most a battered and well used AK-47 and a very limited ammo supply, were you have to help the wounded with a limited and ever decreasing medical supply and being forced into making triage decisions (like do you use the last of the blood transfusion supplies to help a young child or do you try to save the skilled militia fighter that's desperately needed defend the battered community?) and the focus is helping others not killing waves of "bad guys". Have a sensitive Human story, about survival and hardship and working together, it could be compelling. The siege went on for months before they took the town and it was weeks before a counter attack retook the town, telling stories about what happened there would spread awareness and open peoples eyes.

Were you would play as a medic in the civilian militia in Iraq, a stealth focused RPG rather than an FPS. You treat people and help them, faced with dwindling medical supplies you get forced into making triage decisions at times, you could be forced into choosing whether to use the last of the blood transfusion supplies to help a young child or trying to save the skilled militia fighter that's desperately needed to help defend the battered community.

Kind of like Deus Ex: Human revolution with more stealth and very little gunplay and heavily focused on narrative, instead of Iraq and IS set it in Nazi occupied territory and somewhere like the Warsaw Ghetto.

 

[beastro]

Panzer Elite is older and very buggy but I've heard it has been patched and modded to make it more playable. Even buggy it was fun.

I loved it as much as I sucked at the game.

Edit: No wait, was Panzer Commander.

 

[The Madman]

It's pretty common in Strategy games for players to be able to play as or control Axis forces during WW2. The Company of Heroes series has fully voice acted and story-driven Axis campaign even.

War Sims also often have Axis campaign, usually featuring U-Boats/battleship or various tanks and aircraft. The Silent Hunter series is entirely about commanding a German U-Boat after all, having you attack merchant caravans as well as target more dangerous military targets. Pretty good series too although I haven't played the last one that was released.

 

[Cryselle]

I don't even really think the problem is the Nazi's, so much as the problem is that it is difficult to create a story and campaign that people want to play that is focused around the side that lost. We don't have a huge hate on towards the Brits anymore, but you don't see many games where you're on the British side of the American Revolution. And for all that the Alamo is a very well known battle in the US, you don't see many games where you fight in it.

It's easy to engage a player by having them win. It's far more difficult to have them lose, and still keep them interested.

 

[Squilookle]

Getting a bit tired of seeing this question posted over and over again. Games with an involved Axis campaign are everywhere if you bother to look for them, whether it be RTS like Company of Heroes, Sims like IL-2 or Silent Hunter, or all out combined arms arcade shooters like Battlefield 1942 and Battlestations Pacific.

 

[Albino Boo]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

Nazi Germany was a massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world for everyone that wasn't white and loyal to the Nazi party and it would be for as long as the Nazi party was in power.

Individuals might not have been "evil", but the nation as a whole enabled evil on an incredible scale with a callous systematic approach yet to be matched by anyone (Except maybe Stalin).

Even if you make a sympathetic character, you're still fighting for the wrong side. And that's very personal to the people that did suffer the oppression of Nazi Germany.

I wouldn't mind playing as such a character, but it's disingenuous to state that "Germany" at the time wasn't doing incredible terrible things. The citizens might not have known the extent of the atrocities committed, but they very well knew the policies the Nazi party practised.

What about telltale style game were you make choices and decisions that is about a member of the Wehrmacht or other group being forced/coerced into acts that went against his or her conscience before them taking measures to act against it, a kind of schindler's list were they helped people escape the ghettos or avoid capture (being in the camps would probably be a little to far) could make for an interesting story with a sympathetic character that isn't on the "wrong side" so to speak.

I wonder just how the Wehrmacht was coerced into committing 10 million rapes. I wonder how how badly those smiling Wehrmacht officer felt as they took photographs of mass murders of jews by SS Einsatzgruppen. They had clearly so much trouble persuading their men to drive the jews to the massacre sites that they had time to take photographs. Or perhaps that the Wehrmacht wasn't coerced at the time and the commders made up bullisht stoires to excuse their guilt after they lost

At least 1/3 of the market for games exist in countries that were occupied by the Nazis and gamers own family histories tell a different story to that of the post war writings of German Generals

 

[Commissar Sae]

...

I wonder just how the Wehrmacht was coerced into committing 10 million rapes. I wonder how how badly those smiling Wehrmacht officer felt as they took photographs of mass murders of jews by SS Einsatzgruppen. They had clearly so much trouble persuading their men to drive the jews to the massacre sites that they had time to take photographs. Or perhaps that the Wehrmacht wasn't coerced at the time and the commders made up bullisht stoires to excuse their guilt after they lost

At least 1/3 of the market for games exist in countries that were occupied by the Nazis and gamers own family histories tell a different story to that of the post war writings of German Generals

The thing when looking at any real war, is that it becomes harder and harder to look at anything as good vs. Evil. If you look at the number of rapes committed by American GIs in occupied Japan and the brutal execution of Japanese prisoners during the war it becomes harder to look at the allies as "good guys." Every single side in that war was guilty of crimes against humanity, one of the main differences is that we air out the axis crimes for public scrutiny a lot more.

To put a caveat on my statement though, the scale and government sanctioning of these crimes was much, much worse among the axis. Things like the holocaust or Nanjing and unit 731 are acts of planned brutality that go far beyond anything the allied powers did, and are rightly condemned, I just also want to point out that mass rape, murder of civilians, execution of prisoners and looting are things that all sides of pretty much every war in human history have been involved in.

This likewise does not mean that all soldiers are monsters. Many are excellent and upright young men and women, but war changes the human psyche, and it does turn some into monsters.

 

[Doom972]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

I don't recall the allied forces picking an ethnic group of people, taking away their property including their clothes, herding them like animals, torturing and experimenting on them, and sending them to be gassed and cremated hundreds at a time.

Doesn't sound gray to me.