When can we have a WW2 game with an axis campaign?

[Shiftygiant]

The issue with that would be the War Crimes. Maybe a game where you play as the Afrika Korps? I imagine you could do a Stalingrad game form a German POV, or a sort of Letters From Iwo Jima thing. You have to understand, people who were effected by the conflict are still alive, and it's still a thing we live with. That said, I have always had an idea for a surgery sim set in the Second World War, the campaign based on the life and death of Paul Nobuo Tatsuguchi.

 

[Albino Boo]

...

I wonder just how the Wehrmacht was coerced into committing 10 million rapes. I wonder how how badly those smiling Wehrmacht officer felt as they took photographs of mass murders of jews by SS Einsatzgruppen. They had clearly so much trouble persuading their men to drive the jews to the massacre sites that they had time to take photographs. Or perhaps that the Wehrmacht wasn't coerced at the time and the commders made up bullisht stoires to excuse their guilt after they lost

At least 1/3 of the market for games exist in countries that were occupied by the Nazis and gamers own family histories tell a different story to that of the post war writings of German Generals

The thing when looking at any real war, is that it becomes harder and harder to look at anything as good vs. Evil. If you look at the number of rapes committed by American GIs in occupied Japan and the brutal execution of Japanese prisoners during the war it becomes harder to look at the allies as "good guys." Every single side in that war was guilty of crimes against humanity, one of the main differences is that we air out the axis crimes for public scrutiny a lot more.

To put a caveat on my statement though, the scale and government sanctioning of these crimes was much, much worse among the axis. Things like the holocaust or Nanjing and unit 731 are acts of planned brutality that go far beyond anything the allied powers did, and are rightly condemned, I just also want to point out that mass rape, murder of civilians, execution of prisoners and looting are things that all sides of pretty much every war in human history have been involved in.

This likewise does not mean that all soldiers are monsters. Many are excellent and upright young men and women, but war changes the human psyche, and it does turn some into monsters.

I am tired people throwing up false claims of moral equivalent between western allied forces and those of their opponents based on the lies of the Prussian officer core and Japanese nationalists. If you cant tell the difference then you are morally blind. Ask any Pole, Korean, Greek, Czech, Norwegian, Italian, Dane, French, Belgian, Filipino, Dutch, Serb and even the Finns.

 

[J Tyran]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

Nazi Germany was a massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world for everyone that wasn't white and loyal to the Nazi party and it would be for as long as the Nazi party was in power.

Individuals might not have been "evil", but the nation as a whole enabled evil on an incredible scale with a callous systematic approach yet to be matched by anyone (Except maybe Stalin).

Even if you make a sympathetic character, you're still fighting for the wrong side. And that's very personal to the people that did suffer the oppression of Nazi Germany.

I wouldn't mind playing as such a character, but it's disingenuous to state that "Germany" at the time wasn't doing incredible terrible things. The citizens might not have known the extent of the atrocities committed, but they very well knew the policies the Nazi party practised.

What about telltale style game were you make choices and decisions that is about a member of the Wehrmacht or other group being forced/coerced into acts that went against his or her conscience before them taking measures to act against it, a kind of schindler's list were they helped people escape the ghettos or avoid capture (being in the camps would probably be a little to far) could make for an interesting story with a sympathetic character that isn't on the "wrong side" so to speak.

I wonder just how the Wehrmacht was coerced into committing 10 million rapes. I wonder how how badly those smiling Wehrmacht officer felt as they took photographs of mass murders of jews by SS Einsatzgruppen. They had clearly so much trouble persuading their men to drive the jews to the massacre sites that they had time to take photographs. Or perhaps that the Wehrmacht wasn't coerced at the time and the commders made up bullisht stoires to excuse their guilt after they lost

At least 1/3 of the market for games exist in countries that were occupied by the Nazis and gamers own family histories tell a different story to that of the post war writings of German Generals

Shortly after they took power and during the years of rearming in preparation for the "Lebensraum" they has secret police whittling out the conscientious objectors in a campaign of terror directed against the German people many simply shut up and stopped objecting as the people that had disappeared around them or fled the country (starting with the publicly known and/or powerful), they were also clever about it and didn't simply give orders to "go out and rape and put people in death factories".

It was a steady program of dehumanisation, the worst of party supporters did whatever with out qualms but the rest were desensitised into it which was backed up by the fear of groups like the Gestapo.

Then you have some of the disturbing aspects of Human psychology, like the fact that if you were pulled off the street and essentially asked to torture a man a to death that was begging for his life you probably would if the person asking stood over your shoulder in a military uniform.

Or if you were asked to be a guard in a prison how quickly everyday and otherwise moral people can begin abusing the inmates, in a system that actively encouraged it the inmates wouldn't stand a chance.

Besides which are claiming there wasn't anybody in the German armed forces that objected and was coerced? That it would be impossible to tell a story about someone that did because absolutely no-one did and absolutely no-one could have?

 

[Albino Boo]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

Nazi Germany was a massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world for everyone that wasn't white and loyal to the Nazi party and it would be for as long as the Nazi party was in power.

Individuals might not have been "evil", but the nation as a whole enabled evil on an incredible scale with a callous systematic approach yet to be matched by anyone (Except maybe Stalin).

Even if you make a sympathetic character, you're still fighting for the wrong side. And that's very personal to the people that did suffer the oppression of Nazi Germany.

I wouldn't mind playing as such a character, but it's disingenuous to state that "Germany" at the time wasn't doing incredible terrible things. The citizens might not have known the extent of the atrocities committed, but they very well knew the policies the Nazi party practised.

What about telltale style game were you make choices and decisions that is about a member of the Wehrmacht or other group being forced/coerced into acts that went against his or her conscience before them taking measures to act against it, a kind of schindler's list were they helped people escape the ghettos or avoid capture (being in the camps would probably be a little to far) could make for an interesting story with a sympathetic character that isn't on the "wrong side" so to speak.

I wonder just how the Wehrmacht was coerced into committing 10 million rapes. I wonder how how badly those smiling Wehrmacht officer felt as they took photographs of mass murders of jews by SS Einsatzgruppen. They had clearly so much trouble persuading their men to drive the jews to the massacre sites that they had time to take photographs. Or perhaps that the Wehrmacht wasn't coerced at the time and the commders made up bullisht stoires to excuse their guilt after they lost

At least 1/3 of the market for games exist in countries that were occupied by the Nazis and gamers own family histories tell a different story to that of the post war writings of German Generals

Shortly after they took power and during the years of rearming in preparation for the "Lebensraum" they has secret police whittling out the conscientious objectors in a campaign of terror directed against the German people, they were also clever about it and didn't simply give orders to "go out and rape and put people in death factories".

It was a steady program of dehumanisation, the worst of party supporters did whatever with out qualms but the rest were desensitised into it which was backed up by the fear of groups like the Gestapo.

Utter self serving nonsense and lies from the German officer corp. You cant commit 10 million rapes without mass participation. 3.5 million Russian Pows died while under control the wehrmacht.

On July 17, 1941 the OKW declared that the Wehrmacht was to:

free itself from all elements among the prisoners of war considered Bolshevik driving forces. The special situation of the Eastern Campaign therefore demands special measures [an euphemism for killing] which are to be carried out free from bureaucratic and administrative influence and with a willingness to accept responsibility. While so far the regulations and orders concerning prisoners of war were based solely on military considerations, now the political objective must be attained, which is to protect the German nation from Bolshevik inciters and forthwith take the occupied territory strictly in hand


There is the Barbarossa Decree
The order specified:

"The partisans are to be ruthlessly eliminated in battle or during attempts to escape", and all attacks by the civilian population against Wehrmacht soldiers are to be "suppressed by the army on the spot by using extreme measures, till [the] annihilation of the attackers;
Every officer in the German occupation in the East of the future will be entitled to perform executions without trial, without any formalities, on any person suspected of having a hostile attitude towards the Germans", (the same applied to prisoners of war);
"If you have not managed to identify and punish the perpetrators of anti-German acts, you are allowed to apply the principle of collective responsibility. 'Collective measures' against residents of the area where the attack occurred can then be applied after approval by the battalion commander or higher level of command";
German soldiers who commit crimes against humanity, the USSR and prisoners of war are to be exempted from criminal responsibility, even if they commit acts punishable according to German law


The Werchmant was up to rotten neck in rape and murder all the way across eastern europe.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

As a shooter? Nope. I don't really ever see that happening. Other kinds of games? Sure, happens often enough in the RTS genre.

I respect their tactical acumen. Their execution of new military tactics was pretty much the basis of all modern combat. Their behavior off the battlefield and in the pacification of occupied territories would indisputably be the worst in modern history if not for the fact that the USSR was a thing. It's a close race to see who was shittier.

Besides, they have all the best toys. Who doesn't think the Panther is one gorgeous piece of machinery? Over-engineered, unreliable? Yup, still fucking pretty though. I mean look at it!

Spoiler

If you put that in an RTS but solely as an enemy, I am going to declare shenanigans!

 

[J Tyran]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

Nazi Germany was a massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world for everyone that wasn't white and loyal to the Nazi party and it would be for as long as the Nazi party was in power.

Individuals might not have been "evil", but the nation as a whole enabled evil on an incredible scale with a callous systematic approach yet to be matched by anyone (Except maybe Stalin).

Even if you make a sympathetic character, you're still fighting for the wrong side. And that's very personal to the people that did suffer the oppression of Nazi Germany.

I wouldn't mind playing as such a character, but it's disingenuous to state that "Germany" at the time wasn't doing incredible terrible things. The citizens might not have known the extent of the atrocities committed, but they very well knew the policies the Nazi party practised.

What about telltale style game were you make choices and decisions that is about a member of the Wehrmacht or other group being forced/coerced into acts that went against his or her conscience before them taking measures to act against it, a kind of schindler's list were they helped people escape the ghettos or avoid capture (being in the camps would probably be a little to far) could make for an interesting story with a sympathetic character that isn't on the "wrong side" so to speak.

I wonder just how the Wehrmacht was coerced into committing 10 million rapes. I wonder how how badly those smiling Wehrmacht officer felt as they took photographs of mass murders of jews by SS Einsatzgruppen. They had clearly so much trouble persuading their men to drive the jews to the massacre sites that they had time to take photographs. Or perhaps that the Wehrmacht wasn't coerced at the time and the commders made up bullisht stoires to excuse their guilt after they lost

At least 1/3 of the market for games exist in countries that were occupied by the Nazis and gamers own family histories tell a different story to that of the post war writings of German Generals

Shortly after they took power and during the years of rearming in preparation for the "Lebensraum" they has secret police whittling out the conscientious objectors in a campaign of terror directed against the German people, they were also clever about it and didn't simply give orders to "go out and rape and put people in death factories".

It was a steady program of dehumanisation, the worst of party supporters did whatever with out qualms but the rest were desensitised into it which was backed up by the fear of groups like the Gestapo.

Utter self serving nonsense and lies from the German officer corp. You cant commit 10 million rapes without mass participation. 3.5 million Russian Pows died while under control the wehrmacht.

On July 17, 1941 the OKW declared that the Wehrmacht was to:

free itself from all elements among the prisoners of war considered Bolshevik driving forces. The special situation of the Eastern Campaign therefore demands special measures [an euphemism for killing] which are to be carried out free from bureaucratic and administrative influence and with a willingness to accept responsibility. While so far the regulations and orders concerning prisoners of war were based solely on military considerations, now the political objective must be attained, which is to protect the German nation from Bolshevik inciters and forthwith take the occupied territory strictly in hand


There is the Barbarossa Decree
The order specified:

"The partisans are to be ruthlessly eliminated in battle or during attempts to escape", and all attacks by the civilian population against Wehrmacht soldiers are to be "suppressed by the army on the spot by using extreme measures, till [the] annihilation of the attackers;
Every officer in the German occupation in the East of the future will be entitled to perform executions without trial, without any formalities, on any person suspected of having a hostile attitude towards the Germans", (the same applied to prisoners of war);
"If you have not managed to identify and punish the perpetrators of anti-German acts, you are allowed to apply the principle of collective responsibility. 'Collective measures' against residents of the area where the attack occurred can then be applied after approval by the battalion commander or higher level of command";
German soldiers who commit crimes against humanity, the USSR and prisoners of war are to be exempted from criminal responsibility, even if they commit acts punishable according to German law


The Werchmant was up to rotten neck in rape and murder all the way across eastern europe.

You did the read the date of that quote of yours right? 1941? Did you read what I posted too? "they were also clever about it and didn't simply give orders to "go out and rape and put people in death factories".

It was a steady program of dehumanisation, the worst of party supporters did whatever with out qualms but the rest were desensitised into it which was backed up by the fear of groups like the Gestapo."

The Nazis came to power in 1933, the war began in 1939 and the "Lebensraum" began shortly before that and the reign of terror from the Gestapo and the SS were well documented before the war even started so that is not "post war excuses", it's also It's a matter of simple psychology when it comes to decent people doing indecent things, the Nazis took full advantage of it.

Look its obvious the idea of this upsets you and I'm not going to pick at scabs and neither am I willing to argue with someone coming straight from an emotional perspective. So lets just disagree okay? You will not argue me into ignoring facts and science in favour of emotional appeals, I know Nazi Germany did a lot of awful things and even today it can be hard to look at it all objectively in retrospect so I'm not trying to be dismissive I just don't see how arguing about it would e constructive.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

I don't recall the allied forces picking an ethnic group of people, taking away their property including their clothes, herding them like animals, torturing and experimenting on them, and sending them to be gassed and cremated hundreds at a time.

Doesn't sound gray to me.

Well the USA did have the Japanese interment. There is bad to go around after all this was the war where it was decided that civilian targets were OK to bomb. But ya the Germans where about the closet thing to evil as you can get and just because you had other horrible acts at the time doesn't lessen that.

Playing the Germans and doing the bad things might be bad, but playing the Germans and not doing the bad might be worse. It kind of puts the war out of perspective to look at it like that.

 

[Albino Boo]

You did the read the date of that quote of yours right? 1941? Did you read what I posted too? "they were also clever about it and didn't simply give orders to "go out and rape and put people in death factories".

It was a steady program of dehumanisation, the worst of party supporters did whatever with out qualms but the rest were desensitised into it which was backed up by the fear of groups like the Gestapo."

The Nazis came to power in 1933, the war began in 1939 and the "Lebensraum" began shortly before that and the reign of terror from the Gestapo and the SS were well documented before the war even started so that is not "post war excuses", it's also It's a matter of simple psychology when it comes to decent people doing indecent things, the Nazis took full advantage of it.

Look its obvious the idea of this upsets you and I'm not going to pick at scabs and neither am I willing to argue with someone coming straight from an emotional perspective. So lets just disagree okay? You will not argue me into ignoring facts and science in favour of emotional appeals, I know Nazi Germany did a lot of awful things and even today it can be hard to look at it all objectively in retrospect so I'm not trying to be dismissive I just don't see how arguing about it would e constructive.

How about the germans soldiers in the their own words
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385.html

note its German newspaper

 

[Doom972]

Because then you would have to admit that World War 2 wasn't just good VS evil and that Germany wasn't some massive evil hate machine planning to destroy the world, and say that the whole thing had nuance and shades of grey on both sides, and that's more than anyone is willing to handle at the moment when we have people suing French train companies for the holocaust.

I don't recall the allied forces picking an ethnic group of people, taking away their property including their clothes, herding them like animals, torturing and experimenting on them, and sending them to be gassed and cremated hundreds at a time.

Doesn't sound gray to me.

Well the USA did have the Japanese interment. There is bad to go around after all this was the war where it was decided that civilian targets were OK to bomb. But ya the Germans where about the closet thing to evil as you can get and just because you had other horrible acts at the time doesn't lessen that.

Playing the Germans and doing the bad things might be bad, but playing the Germans and not doing the bad might be worse. It kind of puts the war out of perspective to look at it like that.

My thoughts exactly. That's why I think that an Axis campaign is a bad idea. You either have the player help commit genocide, or pretend that said genocide attempt didn't happen. The only way I could see it work is that if you switch sides at some point, but I don't think that this is what the OP meant.

 

[Commissar Sae]

...

I wonder just how the Wehrmacht was coerced into committing 10 million rapes. I wonder how how badly those smiling Wehrmacht officer felt as they took photographs of mass murders of jews by SS Einsatzgruppen. They had clearly so much trouble persuading their men to drive the jews to the massacre sites that they had time to take photographs. Or perhaps that the Wehrmacht wasn't coerced at the time and the commders made up bullisht stoires to excuse their guilt after they lost

At least 1/3 of the market for games exist in countries that were occupied by the Nazis and gamers own family histories tell a different story to that of the post war writings of German Generals

The thing when looking at any real war, is that it becomes harder and harder to look at anything as good vs. Evil. If you look at the number of rapes committed by American GIs in occupied Japan and the brutal execution of Japanese prisoners during the war it becomes harder to look at the allies as "good guys." Every single side in that war was guilty of crimes against humanity, one of the main differences is that we air out the axis crimes for public scrutiny a lot more.

To put a caveat on my statement though, the scale and government sanctioning of these crimes was much, much worse among the axis. Things like the holocaust or Nanjing and unit 731 are acts of planned brutality that go far beyond anything the allied powers did, and are rightly condemned, I just also want to point out that mass rape, murder of civilians, execution of prisoners and looting are things that all sides of pretty much every war in human history have been involved in.

This likewise does not mean that all soldiers are monsters. Many are excellent and upright young men and women, but war changes the human psyche, and it does turn some into monsters.

I am tired people throwing up false claims of moral equivalent between western allied forces and those of their opponents based on the lies of the Prussian officer core and Japanese nationalists. If you cant tell the difference then you are morally blind. Ask any Pole, Korean, Greek, Czech, Norwegian, Italian, Dane, French, Belgian, Filipino, Dutch, Serb and even the Finns.

You didn't really read what I wrote did you? Maybe just the first paragraph then you went on your tirade. They are in no way equivalent, but you cannot at the same time say that every single soldier fighting in the Wermacht or the imperial army were monsters. Both of those armies, and the soviets, sanctioned and even encouraged brutal reprisals against civilians. While the other allied powers didn't officially allow looting, rape, or murder, we do turn a blind eye to it. Likewise condemning every single man for the crimes of his countrymen is, in my opinion, even more of an ethical blindness, and the cause of a great deal of modern hate and violence against innocents.

 

[Smooth Operator]

If you keep things far enough removed from political and moral questions then you can have any number of games surrounding the Axis, hell it's not like games actually seriously address wars in any case.

But at this point in this medium there just aren't enough adults to have a civil discussion, imagine if you actually went ahead and made something serious... people would want your head for it. So for the time being we need to keep it black/white simple so people don't get confused and upset.

 

[totlmstr]

If you keep things far enough removed from political and moral questions then you can have any number of games surrounding the Axis, hell it's not like games actually seriously address wars in any case.

But at this point in this medium there just aren't enough adults to have a civil discussion, imagine if you actually went ahead and made something serious... people would want your head for it. So for the time being we need to keep it black/white simple so people don't get confused and upset.

Case in point being the comments above. It's annoying.

My thoughts exactly. That's why I think that an Axis campaign is a bad idea. You either have the player help commit genocide, or pretend that said genocide attempt didn't happen. The only way I could see it work is that if you switch sides at some point, but I don't think that this is what the OP meant.

IMHO, that actually sounds very interesting. That's daring.

A game about the wrongfulness of the SS and why it fell, while working for them. The players goes through the atrocities commited, and has to make tough choices. It would be a sad story all the way through, of no doubt.

 

[inmunitas]

I'm serious. I know they are the bad guys of the war and all that but I'm sick of only being able to roflstomp Germany and invade Japanese owned islands. Hell there's never even an Italian invasion.

I want a game with campaigns for each faction. This probably could not be happen for a long time but I eventually would like a realistic campaign. As in, my other Japanese dudes are shooting civilians in the ditches.

Can this ever happen?
And if it does will we ever see a portrayal of killing civilians?
Mw2 had you kill civilians on a stupid premise, but they weren't real people really killed so..

It's been done in other mediums such as film and anime, so I don't see why a video game can't also.

 

[Lightspeaker]

My thoughts exactly. That's why I think that an Axis campaign is a bad idea. You either have the player help commit genocide, or pretend that said genocide attempt didn't happen. The only way I could see it work is that if you switch sides at some point, but I don't think that this is what the OP meant.

Er...I'm pretty sure not every single Soldier, Pilot and Sailor in the German armed forces personally committed genocide. You don't have to pretend it didn't happen but you also don't actually specifically have to make the player be involved. Although that doesn't mean that it'd be a BAD thing to do that. There's a board game they had at some exhibition where you had to get trains running on time and shipping an undisclosed cargo. At the end of playing it is revealed to the players that the theme of the game was shipping people to concentration camps. Interesting and shocking way to get people thinking about it so I don't think its impossible to handle it in such a way as to get people thinking rather than just horrify them.


Anyway. For FPS? I'd say that's a really tough sell purely because of the very personal nature of actually shooting stuff. People would go nuts. However for other game types its been done. Grand Strategy, submarine sims, air combat sims, stuff like that. Shooters not so much.

I also think that part of the reason for this is that its somewhat mentally easier to distance war crimes from the navy and air force than it is for the army. For example the Holocaust is heavily implicated with the Wehrmacht, but not so much with the Kriegsmarine (indeed as far as I'm aware all historical navies until the more recent global communications setup we have now seem to be somewhat 'insulated' from their respective country's crimes; I think its somewhat to do with the relative independence that ships have). Which makes naval games more palatable on the whole.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

You might as well ask for an economic simulator of pre civil war america with slaves.

That might actually be an interesting game, a game that explores the economics of the trans-atlantic slave trade that shows how inhuman the whole business really was. Papers Please was a fantastic game that made me think about totalitarian governments, corruption and the nature of immigration.

Anyway it's not a bad idea. Games are art, art often deals with difficult subjects. So the idea of a game where you play as Axis forces wouldn't be a problem, the problem would be execution. Also as people mentioned there are some games where you play as the Axis, strategy games mostly. Hell I played a game where you are Hitler who was really two children in a coat.

 

[Albino Boo]

You didn't really read what I wrote did you? Maybe just the first paragraph then you went on your tirade. They are in no way equivalent, but you cannot at the same time say that every single soldier fighting in the Wermacht or the imperial army were monsters. Both of those armies, and the soviets, sanctioned and even encouraged brutal reprisals against civilians. While the other allied powers didn't officially allow looting, rape, or murder, we do turn a blind eye to it. Likewise condemning every single man for the crimes of his countrymen is, in my opinion, even more of an ethical blindness, and the cause of a great deal of modern hate and violence against innocents.

I did read what you wrote and fatuous nonsense of the worst kind and just plain wrong. US forces in Normandy committed 208 rapes and 30 murders resulting in 29 executions. The Wehrmacht committed 10 million rapes and murdred 3.5 million Russian Pows resulting 43 executions.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385.html

 

[Doom972]

My thoughts exactly. That's why I think that an Axis campaign is a bad idea. You either have the player help commit genocide, or pretend that said genocide attempt didn't happen. The only way I could see it work is that if you switch sides at some point, but I don't think that this is what the OP meant.

Er...I'm pretty sure not every single Soldier, Pilot and Sailor in the German armed forces personally committed genocide. You don't have to pretend it didn't happen but you also don't actually specifically have to make the player be involved. Although that doesn't mean that it'd be a BAD thing to do that. There's a board game they had at some exhibition where you had to get trains running on time and shipping an undisclosed cargo. At the end of playing it is revealed to the players that the theme of the game was shipping people to concentration camps. Interesting and shocking way to get people thinking about it so I don't think its impossible to handle it in such a way as to get people thinking rather than just horrify them.


Anyway. For FPS? I'd say that's a really tough sell purely because of the very personal nature of actually shooting stuff. People would go nuts. However for other game types its been done. Grand Strategy, submarine sims, air combat sims, stuff like that. Shooters not so much.

I also think that part of the reason for this is that its somewhat mentally easier to distance war crimes from the navy and air force than it is for the army. For example the Holocaust is heavily implicated with the Wehrmacht, but not so much with the Kriegsmarine (indeed as far as I'm aware all historical navies until the more recent global communications setup we have now seem to be somewhat 'insulated' from their respective country's crimes; I think its somewhat to do with the relative independence that ships have). Which makes naval games more palatable on the whole.

Soldiers talk, and gossip spreads fast in every military. The vast majority knew what regime they were fighting for and what that regime was doing. Without showing how horrific it was, people just think of the numbers, and 6 million doesn't sound so big in comparison to all the other dead in WW2. People need to know that they were men, women, children and elderly that were herded like animals, tortured and killed for no reason other than being a Jewish.

 

[Recusant]

Nope nope nope, you might as well ask of economic simulator of pre civil war america with slaves.

So, Europa Universalis, then?

There are some lines you should not cross and you might as well just get another war that didn't almost extinct an entire race. At best maybe playing the game with the japanese (though they had their own share of horrifying acts), or italians (though they didn't won anything important if I remember correctly).

I disagree, vehemently. Even at the time, "German" did not equal "Nazi", and "soldier" did not equal "concentration camp guard", neither of which equaled "extermination camp guard". Johan and Fritz, frontline Wehrmacht soldiers, were fundamentally no different from John and Frank, frontline US Army soldiers; just a bunch of farm boys conscripted into the armed forces- should a different language really be that much of an impediment to empathy? Other posts in this topic have mentioned the rapes and lootings German soldiers engaged in; I don't know why they think the Allied crimes (in this category) were any different. More to the point, I don't why they think they're more relevant; all but a handful of these games ignore that side of war entirely; it's just soldiers shooting at one another. That one side had a monstrously evil power structure behind it to the other's moderately evil power structure doesn't really change the day to day realities of a given solider; why should it change gameplay experiences? I don't think Chuckman was asking for a Holocaust game, just a world war 2 one with an Axis campaign. Can you see no difference? Do you really think the regular duties of a German solider at the time involved routine massacring of captive civilians?

Individuals might not have been "evil", but the nation as a whole enabled evil on an incredible scale with a callous systematic approach yet to be matched by anyone (Except maybe Stalin)

Exceeded by Stalin, actually. Mao killed more people than both of them combined. Hirohito (or his underlings) didn't kill nearly so many, but Unit 731 alone made the SS look like pussycats in terms of grotesque inhumanity.

How do you quantify atrocities? Is it worse if you're performing experiments on them because of the inherent inhumanity of the process? Is there no mitigation from the knowledge gained (remember, it was SS researchers who first gave us real evidence that smoking causes cancer)? Is it really so much less bad if the people you're massacring are your own? To what degree is a solider (who, by definition, has abdicated much of the responsibility of deciding when to kill and when to spare) responsible for the actions of their government? To what degree does an individual's obligation to their country (and, by extension, to humanity as a whole) override their obligation to themselves and their families?

These are difficult questions that don't have easy answers- at least not good ones. Video games, by their very nature, provide an interesting place and way to examine these questions. Perhaps, given its recentness and the fact that a (relative) handful of survivors are still around means that the Holocaust (and its associated war) aren't the vehicle to explore them with. But though the war and the Holocaust are definitely linked, they're not the same thing. If we can separate the US government from it's deliberate decision to drop an atomic bomb and kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians (twice!), the UK government's bombing of Dresden (until the atmosphere itself caught fire), and the Russian government's, well, being the Russian government, can we not do the same for the Germans?

Are we next going to have games about the 2003 invasion of Iraq where the Iraqis have to defend themselves against an attacking US Postal Service?

 

[Commissar Sae]

You didn't really read what I wrote did you? Maybe just the first paragraph then you went on your tirade. They are in no way equivalent, but you cannot at the same time say that every single soldier fighting in the Wermacht or the imperial army were monsters. Both of those armies, and the soviets, sanctioned and even encouraged brutal reprisals against civilians. While the other allied powers didn't officially allow looting, rape, or murder, we do turn a blind eye to it. Likewise condemning every single man for the crimes of his countrymen is, in my opinion, even more of an ethical blindness, and the cause of a great deal of modern hate and violence against innocents.

I did read what you wrote and fatuous nonsense of the worst kind and just plain wrong. US forces in Normandy committed 208 rapes and 30 murders resulting in 29 executions. The Wehrmacht committed 10 million rapes and murdred 3.5 million Russian Pows resulting 43 executions.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385.html

You look at a single soviet statistic of 10 million rapes (which looks a lot like propaganda numbers)and quote an article that is little more than a review of "Soldat" by Knappe (A book I actually read all of by the way, while most German soldiers were aware of crimes, even supported them, only a small number were involved.) You then cite the rapes in Normandy (so against French civilians) and completely ignore the 11,040 rapes committed by American soldiers in occupied Germany and the further 10,000+ in occupied Japan. Not even mentioning the 2 million+ rapes committed by Soviet Soldiers against the German civilian population.

The fact that the axis governments and many of their soldiers are guilty of horrifying crimes against humanity doesn't mean every single German or Japanese soldier is equally guilty, and it doesn't let allied soldiers off the hook.

 

[J Tyran]

You did the read the date of that quote of yours right? 1941? Did you read what I posted too? "they were also clever about it and didn't simply give orders to "go out and rape and put people in death factories".

It was a steady program of dehumanisation, the worst of party supporters did whatever with out qualms but the rest were desensitised into it which was backed up by the fear of groups like the Gestapo."

The Nazis came to power in 1933, the war began in 1939 and the "Lebensraum" began shortly before that and the reign of terror from the Gestapo and the SS were well documented before the war even started so that is not "post war excuses", it's also It's a matter of simple psychology when it comes to decent people doing indecent things, the Nazis took full advantage of it.

Look its obvious the idea of this upsets you and I'm not going to pick at scabs and neither am I willing to argue with someone coming straight from an emotional perspective. So lets just disagree okay? You will not argue me into ignoring facts and science in favour of emotional appeals, I know Nazi Germany did a lot of awful things and even today it can be hard to look at it all objectively in retrospect so I'm not trying to be dismissive I just don't see how arguing about it would e constructive.

How about the germans soldiers in the their own words
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385.html

note its German newspaper

Well I don't think its a big surprise that there were German soldiers that were nasty pieces of work is it? I wasn't denying they did those things but you're denying the fact that some of the were not like that, some were every day people desensitised and bombarded with a steady campaign that dehumanised people. That kind of propaganda is incredibly effective, propaganda in general is.

Then you come around to the way war changes people for the worst, Allied soldiers as well as the Soviets (they where terrible) commited huge amounts of rape. There are even claims [http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/422860/D-Day-GIs-raped-and-killed-their-French-allies-while-US-army-generals-turned-a-blind-eye] that they raped French women after the D-Day landings, there are also claims [http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/book-claims-us-soldiers-raped-190-000-german-women-post-wwii-a-1021298.html] that Allied soldiers raped hundreds of thousands of German women during the occupation of Germany with the Soviets accounting for 500,000.

Of course the Allied side of the story was swept under the rug by "history is written by the winners", war does something terrible to people. Many of the German soldiers were simply conscripts and forced into fighting, if they did not they faced court martial. Many of those me then underwent that terrible transformation that turned them into monsters, many of them didn't.