when did scientific discussion become a troll off?

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Ulquiorra4sama

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It's not really a new issue that some people simply can't be argued with
Also i'd say it's because the troll party doesn't have the extensive knowledge to talk about things in a civilized manner.
 

Kargathia

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Jul 16, 2009
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Are you really sure you're looking for a scientific debate? If so, then be prepared to be able to substantiate every claim you make, and list all your sources in every post.

If you're just looking for a good debate: feel free to poke me up any time, it's kinda why I still check these forums.
 

Togs

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shrub231 said:
as of late i have noticed that a great many people don't seem to know what is ment by scientific discussion. as far as my understanding goes, scientific disscussion is to be undertake with an open mind, meaning that nothing is absolute, and all ideas are theory based, not factual. as a fact is defined as being indesputable, and not many scientific theories(evolution included) have been elevated to such a position.

but i'm rambling, tell me escapist why do fvery few partake in discussion anymore
You seem to misunderstand the term, "scientific discussion" would obviously follow the scientific method i.e. accept nothing without proof.
In science you can see what ever you want but it has ot be backed up by the evidence, you cant just say something is some way and not expect people to question it.

Oh and theory=fact when it comes to science, Im really getting sick and tired of that misconception.
 

Kinguendo

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Apr 10, 2009
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Actually evolution is a scientific fact... it happens, thats the truth. The reasons behind it are the theories, lets not continue to spread the lie that evolution is a theory eh?

Its pretty annoying that you are pretending to be on this pedestal regarding scientific discussion and you dont even seem to know about it, clean up your act.
 

ChildishLegacy

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shrub231 said:
as of late i have noticed that a great many people don't seem to know what is ment by scientific discussion. as far as my understanding goes, scientific disscussion is to be undertake with an open mind, meaning that nothing is absolute, and all ideas are theory based, not factual. as a fact is defined as being indesputable, and not many scientific theories(evolution included) have been elevated to such a position.

but i'm rambling, tell me escapist why do fvery few partake in discussion anymore
Theory = Fact in scientific context
e.g. today class we are studying the theory behind the atom.

The theory behind something is the way it works, so the theory of evolution is how evolution is explained and how it demonstrably works, evolution is a fact, and the theory of evolution is a way of explaining it, people need to know this.
 

Lord Legion

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Feb 26, 2010
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Jordi said:
There is so much misunderstanding here...

A scientific theory is not indisputable. Ideas and hypotheses do not "graduate" into being theories/facts. Some theories can be proven, but most can not. Just because one unprovable theory (gravity) is pretty much undisputed, doesn't mean that all theories are.

The theory of evolution is disputed because the evidence is not nearly conclusive (far less conclusive than the evidence for gravity for instance). Evolution as a mechanism for global search has been proven in the abstract, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was also the mechanism by which life has changed throughout the ages. It means that it could be. There are of course many clues that are consistent with this view (some people like to call this evidence).
To be honest I think the primary reason that so many people believe in evolution is that there is no real scientific, alternative explanation. That doesn't mean that all criticism is invalid though. For instance, even evolutionists admit there is a "missing link". But a far more significant criticism in my opinion is that people are disputing that the preconditions for evolution are met by the building blocks of life. The argument is basically that the fraction of configurations of amino acids that are viable for life is so small that it would take many times the lifetime of the universe to get one by random mutations. It follows from this that only decreases in complexity and variety are plausible, so we couldn't have evolved from single cell organisms. At most we could have (d)evolved from slightly more complex proto-humans (and dogs from proto-dogs, etc.), which is nicely consistent with the intelligent design view.
I personally still believe that the evolution theory is probably true, but I haven't been able to come up with a convincing counter-argument for this yet. If anyone does, I'd be interested in hearing it. But if you can't, maybe you shouldn't be claiming that the theory of evolution is indisputable, and you should instead keep an open mind like the OP suggests.

On the other hand, as some people pointed out, this is the internet. And on a forum like this, with high school kids and anonymity, you are bound to get discussions that are less than scientific. I was a lot more surprised to see that this phenomenon also occurs with real scientists who are posting under their real names in LinkedIn groups.
I agree most(ly) whole-heartedly... it is certainly the most viable scientific explanation, but that doesn't mean it can fill in all the gaps. And, there are some awfully big gaps in evolutionary theory. Take for instance irreducibly complex systems, such as the eye... for this to come about there would have to have been creatures lugging around useless half formed tumors that had not yet gained any function or value. Survival of the fittest would have excluded them... in fact, in survival of the fittest, it is often the simplest organism that succeeds, and that begs the question as to why life got more complex in the first place.

It still works for me tho.
 

Phisi

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I think it also has something to do with the aggressiveness of some people who post. I find a lot of people are being rather mean in their posts so people with contradicting ideologies or opinions be even meaner back and flame war ensues.
Oh and theory does not equal fact but SCIENCE!!! works on theories. The theory with the most proof and explains stuff the most accurate is the current 'fact'. For example; Newton's laws of gravity were accepted as fact even though we know they were wrong (* well not quite right and they knew back then as well as Mercury's orbit would have been different) and on a more controversial note; Intelligent design was accepted as fact until evolution came into existence and more so, the evolution of man.
 

Da_Vane

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It's quite simple really - Science itself is becoming a religion with it's own ideology, so rather than entering into debate with an open mind able to question the very fundamental principles of the foundations of science, people are entering it with a lot of baggage and other elements in tow that, when questioned, they react to defensively rather than reasonably. Rather than using logic and reason to try and discuss and debate things, they are simply preaching and trying to convert anybody else who will listen, making it a contest between opposing ideologies rather than a discussion or debate, with an aim towards any sort of compromise or solution to seek answers. This is because, ultimately, such people already have their answers, and are looking to rationalise their answers in the terms of the question.
 

spartan231490

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shrub231 said:
as of late i have noticed that a great many people don't seem to know what is ment by scientific discussion. as far as my understanding goes, scientific disscussion is to be undertake with an open mind, meaning that nothing is absolute, and all ideas are theory based, not factual. as a fact is defined as being indesputable, and not many scientific theories(evolution included) have been elevated to such a position.

but i'm rambling, tell me escapist why do fvery few partake in discussion anymore
firstly: " meaning that nothing is absolute, and all ideas are theory based, not factual. as a fact is defined as being indesputable, and not many scientific theories(evolution included) have been elevated to such a position"
Gravity is technically just a theory, that doesn't mean that it's disputable. I would say that evolution has also been raised to that position, I mean "we win, we have fossils." But an open mind is important for any discussion, not just a scientific one, that doesn't make it any more surprising(for me) when I don't find any.

OT: As for why so few partake in discussion now, I don't know what you're talking about. I have had several good discussions lately, both on this site and IRL.
 

Phisi

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Jun 1, 2011
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Lord Legion said:
Snip, snipping, snipped
To explain the eye... as best as I know; If some creature were to develop some light sensitive nerves on their skin (maybe evolved from nerve that detects heat, Infra-red light, or such as not burning yourself is very useful) they could use it to hide themselves in caves underwater and come out at night or such (most animals have eyes so it is likely they evolved early one when we were still in water) but this would only tell them if they were in light or dark. If one animal were to develop a slight concave shape of light nerves then they would be able to have an idea where the light is coming from, the more concave the more you can tell where it is coming from until you end up with a hollow ball of light nerves and a small opening. It would be logical to have this ball full of something like a fluid or gel so that dirt and bacteria doesn't collect in it and cause infections. It would also be helpful to be able to rotate the 'eye' and thus rotate the opening to help find where light is coming from. The next step is the lens to allow a image of the world around you. Eyebrows, lashes and lids also help by keeping rain out, stuff away and cleaning the eye respectively. Hope that helps!
 

Lukeje

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Feb 6, 2008
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shrub231 said:
as of late i have noticed that a great many people don't seem to know what is ment by scientific discussion. as far as my understanding goes, scientific disscussion is to be undertake with an open mind, meaning that nothing is absolute, and all ideas are theory based, not factual. as a fact is defined as being indesputable, and not many scientific theories(evolution included) have been elevated to such a position.

but i'm rambling, tell me escapist why do fvery few partake in discussion anymore
Is there any scientific theory that has been elevated to `fact'? I don't think you really understand science...
 

Kpt._Rob

Travelling Mushishi
Apr 22, 2009
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I would say it has to do with the fact that, just because one answer or the other is not absolute, doesn't imply that they are equal. Dissenters will say that the proof of evolution or global warming, for instance, is not absolute, so their theory should be given just as much thought. But that's incredibly intellectually dishonest. There is a massive scientific consensus on both of these issues, those few "scientists" (quotation marks intentional) who claim to the contrary, tend to have political or religious reasons for disagreeing, as opposed to legitimate scientific reasons, so they have tailored their conclusions as such.

The idea that creation theory is equal to evolutionary theory is preposterous, and so I am not going to sit around and try to take seriously someone who claims otherwise. That person is not using logic to debate.
 

Eefness

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Jan 25, 2011
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Yea sometimes I wish that Bill Nye would come in and ***** slap some people. If anyone could end a science debate it would be Bill Freaking Nye.
 

Alexlion

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May 2, 2011
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Gravity = Fact
Theory of gravity = how we explain gravity e.g. bend in space time

The earth orbits the sun = fact
the theory = why it orbits the sun again bend in space time

The earth is round = fact
the theory = our explanation of why it formed that way

Evolution = fact
the theory of evolution = our understanding of how evolution works
 

Vanguard_Ex

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Mar 19, 2008
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Because your face.

Because it gets to a point where, quite frankly, you don't want to fucking discuss everything. I have a friend who doesn't really do it nowadays, but I used to get to the point where I frequently wanted to tell him to shut the hell up and kick his ass out of the door. I love him but he used to counter practically everything I said with a 'Yeah, but' and start arguing it. Half the time it wasn't even an opinion he was arguing.
 

TitanDrone

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Jul 13, 2011
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Having a scientific discussion requires a similar level of education on the part of the participants. I hail from a small country with a comprehensive and taxpayer financed education system (from preschool all the way to university.) In my experience this relatively high level of education shapes the public discourse and enables relatively complex discussions across vast divides like income and social background.

To me, the larger obstacle to a scientific discussion is institutionalized stupidity. A society facing a crisis often rely on the well educated.
Example.: In war some people design and build the weapons and some operate them. And in a natural disaster the highly educated help to analyse and plan ahead to make the next unforeseen event less unforeseen.

If you find yourself wanting or needing to have a scientific discussion and cannot, the best you can do is try to find a less stupid person to talk to.
 

teisjm

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Mar 3, 2009
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Parttaking in a scientific discussion requires both intelegence, and knowledge about the matter beeing discussed, and often a fair bit of knowledge about the physics/facts/prevailing theories on the subject.

Trolling a scientific discussion requires none of the above, unless you wanna do it in a way even the people parttaking in the discussion can enjoy and get a laugh out of, despite it not adding anything relevant.

If i'm in a serious thread, i won't be shy to leave a joke behind, but more often than not followed/preceded by an "on a serious note" and an actual contribution.

I often complelety pass responsing to a thread, if i don't have a chane to say anything usefull, because what's beeing discussed is something i simply don't really know shit about, and leaving an attempt at a response, without anything to back it up will more often than not yield you nothing but people who studied the matter briefly, thinking they're accepted experts "i've been in film school for 2 months now, my oppinion on anything on screen is the unquestionable truth" for instance.
 

Loonyyy

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Jul 10, 2009
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@ OP. Possibly because people are sadly misinformed about science, such as your understanding of Facts and Theories. Scientists do not deal in "Facts". They deal in Observations, hypothesis and Theories. Science is not a trolling contest: When actual scientists, or at least skeptically minded folk engage in discussion, the result is almost always unity in ideas, or the acceptance that there remains a doubt due to the lack of evidence. A scientist can be convinced of anything where evidence is concerned. Most of the time, personal emotion doesn't come into discussions (Though no-one is perfect). Please don't make this assertion, it isn't correct. People arguing whether life evolved or was created is not scientific discussion, nearly all forum posts about science are not scientific discussion, it is personal opinion and belief.

What you see are observations: Gravities effect on unsupported objects (Falling) is an observation.

A hypothesis explains this, and potentially connects elements, explaining things. A hypothesis is considered incorrect (Null Hypothesis) until tested, to around 95-99% certainty that there is an effect not previously explained. I may hypothesis that things fall by being attracted to each other, or by their being an external force pulling on them. I assume this to be incorrect until I can Prove it.
When hypothesis are proven, and demonstrated, to the point where they both explain the phenomena and can stand up to the criticism of other scientists (Peer Reviewed Research) it may become a theory. Theories are generally as close to "Facts" as it comes in science. They explain phenomena and accurately predict outcomes. Theories are usually accepted by above 90% of scientists in the field.

Gravity is a theory, yet our understanding of it led us to the moon.
Evolution is a theory, yet it is used to help understand our origins, and has potential applications in the treatment of viruses (Such as the Flu).
Germ Theory is a Theory, (Lol) which is the only reason that hospitals make people healthier rather than killing them (Prior, infection was unexplained, and doctors were not hygienic)
A theory is simply the BEST explanation at the time, fitting the elements (Newton's gravitational theory is accurate for the earth system, but doesn't explain accurately the motion of planets. Einstein's static volume universe theory was incorrect, but his relativity work and equations contributed to understanding the expanding universe which replaced it)

People should understand the "Theory" Never implies a doubt. It implies as far as science is concerned, a certainty. The term "Open-Minded" is often misused, being open minded doesn't have any impact on science. I'm no zealot, but if someone tries to convince me that dismissing psychics (Who have never scientifically proven their abilities) is closed minded, and that I should give them my money, they're failing to understand the difference between skepticism and denial.

Science is Closed-Minded. You're assumed to be incorrect (Null-Hypothesis) unless you can prove or demonstrate evidence to prove your claims. If your ideas are good, then evidence backs them up, and Science expands. If you require no evidence, then why won't you believe in my Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Sorry for the Wall'o'Text TLDR: Scientific debate has never been, and is not, a "Troll off". It is reasoned discussion, where beliefs and hypothesis must coincide with evidence.
To assert otherwise is wrong, and simply poisoning the well for less informed people who believe that unqualified discussion and personal philosophy are scientific discussion.
 

Liudeius

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Oct 5, 2010
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Because there are too many people with your view of science.
That everything is "not true" so you can say whatever the F*** you want.

Everything in science is open to change, that doesn't mean it all must be treated as wrong.

Evolution is such that it IS fact as far as anything can be fact.

Without valid reasoning to contradict or dispute an idea, that idea can not be contradicted/disputed.

Virtually all of these "trolling" arguments are actually Pseudo-scientists vs. real scientists (Evolution, global warming, ect.)