When does someone deserve death?

[zehydra]

Rape deserves worse than death, and murder may also deserve death.

why?

Because They are despicable and monstrous acts that cannot be forgiven. You are destroying a person's life your own selfishness.

and why does that person deserve death?

Because they are beyond forgiveness. What they have done is so monstrous that the only acceptable punishment is death.

and my question is why is that?

Because their actions were so monstrous that they deserve death. How is this too difficult to understand? That is my reason. Their conscious actions are despicable beyond forgiveness and for that reason, they deserve death.

no, you're still not getting what I mean. Why do monstrous actions deserve death? Why are their actions beyond forgiveness?

I get what you're saying, but there is no answer in the way you want one. It's a matter of opinion on morality.

so you're basically saying it's arbitrary?

 

[CyanideSandwich]

I would kill someone in self-defence, or as revenge for a heinous crime committed toward myself or someone I care about. I don't believe my conscience would be affected in a seriously negative way if I took a life, provided that I know they deserved it for their actions.

The crimes I'm referring to by the way would be rape, murder or torture. If any of these happened to someone close to me, I'd see myself justified in killing them.

I'm not sure if I ever would kill someone, but I guess that's something I don't know until I'm put in that situation...

 

[DanDeFool]

Spoiler

Personally, when I think about the death penalty, it isn't about considering what that person has done, it's more a matter of pragmatism. It's like when you've got a wild animal that's developed a taste for humans; you don't hunt it down an kill it to teach the animal a lesson, you hunt it down and kill it so that it can't kill again.

When you have a violent criminal who's violent because they've had a shitty life and make a living through criminal acts, or because they acted hastily in a bad situation, you lock that person away. There's a chance that person can be redeemed, so you separate them from society for a while and hope they're ready to clean up their act once they're released (not a very good system, but hey, you got any better ideas?)

When you have a violent criminal, like Charles Manson or John Wayne Gacy, who's violent because they are insane, or they just love hurting people more than anything else, then you kill them. It's not a matter of punishment; really, what's the point in punishing someone like that? Punishing that person isn't going to right any of the wrongs they committed. The people they've hurt won't get un-hurt by torturing the crazy bastards. The best thing you can do to those kinds of people is to get rid of them as quickly and efficiently as our criminal justice systems will allow, so that they can't hurt anyone else and all of us can rest a little easier at night.

So, referencing OT, when I think of the death penalty, asking if that person "deserves death" is the wrong question, because the death penalty isn't really a "punishment" per-se. You only punish something when you have some hope of correcting its behavior, so saying that death penalty is a punishment is probably fallacious. For people like Manson and Gacy, it's less accurate to say that they "deserved to die", and more accurate to say "we had no choice but to kill them". People who commit such heinous acts pose such a dire threat that our fear of them rightfully overrides any sympathy we might have for them, or any moral qualms we might have about taking their lives.

Bottom line: When someone "deserves death", it's not really a matter of them "deserving" anything. It's more a matter of "what is the most effective way to protect ourselves from this person". It's not about revenge or punishment, it's a rational, pragmatic decision made to protect society from its most dangerous members.

Others have said that the only time it is ok to kill someone, is when they abandon/lose their humanity, which I will agree with.
I still believe that no one should be killed, but if someone kills 40 people and eats their bodies, then that person has stopped being human.
This could be a potentially slippery slope for discussion, so I'll quickly say that I do not think that humans have all of the same rights as animals and leave it at that. If you want to discus that point, please take it to another thread.
Your post summarized the other "people who stop being human deserve death" opinions well, so that is why I am addressing it.
Death penalty is a deterrent, and while it doesn't work the same as a punishment, it serves the same purpose. Also for the sake of discussion, the only reason I say "death penalty" instead of "take out a gun and blow them away on the spot" is because most people can identify with the death penalty. It is merely the vehicle for killing a person that has committed a heinous crime, and I don't want you to get too hung up about it (like others have, talking about the cost of the death penalty and other irrelevant things).
I would prefer you ignore the death penalty altogether and just imagine that people who "deserve death" in your mind, just fall over dead, and their pants turn into flamingoes that make a nest in the person's mouth.

You bring up an interesting point that I thought I'd comment on. Saying that a terrible person who hurts others "stops being human" is a bit of a No True Scotsman fallacy. I happen to think that these extreme cases underline the some of the shortcomings in philosophies assume that life (especially human life) is always sacred in all circumstances. It's like trying to apply the Biblical directive "Judge not, lest ye be judged" to real life. Yes, maybe all people deserve equal rights, but not everybody's life has the same value, because not everybody behaves the same way. So, we have to judge; it's a necessity. We can't have civilization without judgement.

The real question isn't "do you think human life is precious or not", it's "how bad does a person have to be before you no longer care whether or not their life is precious, and can it be up to us where to draw that line?" The answer to that latter question is the difference between societies that choose the death penalty and societies that do not.

As for the difference between my philosophy and the "bad people stop being human" folks, it's really only a matter of how you justify your actions. I think the awful person we put to death is still a person; their actions can't change that fact. But what their actions can do is force the rest of us to take action against them to protect ourselves. Whether that's the death penalty or life imprisonment or whatever has to be decided on a case-by-case basis, but you shouldn't need to moralize destroying a dangerous person by saying "Oh, we killed that guy because he was clearly 'no longer human.'"

Bottom Line: You shouldn't need to hide from the reality of the situation when you put a horrible person to death. Sometimes it's okay to take a human life, and the difference between a decent person and a horrible person is what criteria they use to decide when it's okay to do so.

 

[spartan231490]

Rape deserves worse than death, and murder may also deserve death.

why?

Because They are despicable and monstrous acts that cannot be forgiven. You are destroying a person's life your own selfishness.

and why does that person deserve death?

Because they are beyond forgiveness. What they have done is so monstrous that the only acceptable punishment is death.

and my question is why is that?

Because their actions were so monstrous that they deserve death. How is this too difficult to understand? That is my reason. Their conscious actions are despicable beyond forgiveness and for that reason, they deserve death.

no, you're still not getting what I mean. Why do monstrous actions deserve death? Why are their actions beyond forgiveness?

I get what you're saying, but there is no answer in the way you want one. It's a matter of opinion on morality.

so you're basically saying it's arbitrary?

I'm saying it's opinion. You know, just like I just said it's opinion. I believe that the acts of rape and murder are so monstrous that the people who commit those crimes deserve death.

 

[merck88]

Those are all issues with the practicality of enforcement. Those are all issues with the practicality of enforcement, which was not the original question.

Fair enough, I'm an engineer and tend to look at the practical rather than the theoretical.

The original question was who deserves death, and I think that murderers and rapists deserve death. For the record, I believe that the death penalty can be instituted without resulting in the deaths of innocent people.

And here is where we disagree, both whether it correct to do so and whether it can be correctly implemented. There will always be some level of doubt in any case. even if it was clear they commited the crime, should someone with severe mental retardation still be condemed to death? What if the death was unintional? With these questions, it would be nearly impossible to answer without some mind reading technology. And, at that point, that would be violating 4th and 5th amendment rights, which would be (I propose) just as unethical as the origonal crime.

Ethically speaking, I believe capital punishment is wrong. Personally, I don't believe anyone is beyond redemption, no matter how heinous their crimes. That does not mean I think they should be allowed to freely re-enter society, but life without parole seams reasonable. Although there is some disagreement about this, generally life without parole is cheaper for the state as it avoids the costly injections and the large leagal costs involed with the lawsuits and appeals.

And as for the racial distribution, probably. A very high percentage of prison inmates in the US are imprisoned for gang-related activity.

AHH! Great point! Though this opens up an entirely different can of worms. Why are minorities attracted to crime? Well, there are tones of social-economic reasons for that, but we probably shouldn't derail the thread with that. Perhaps in a new thread?

 

[enzilewulf]

Never. I love these christian moralist who say that we should kill some one if they have killed some one. Yet in the Bible it says only god may chose when some one dies (I am atheist BTW). I love how people think that death is worse than life. No... not here in the USA anyways. Prisons are hell and often in the grips of gangs. Living the rest of your life in there would be hell. The death penalty is a way out of that hell. I think its morally wrong and way to many people get accused who are actually innocent. Like Troy Davis.

As Gandhi said "An Eye for an Eye leaves the whole world blind".

OH,USA

Up to your post, no-one had mentioned an eye for an eye.

As a Catholic I don't believe in the death penalty, and the christian nation I live in abolished the death penalty nearly 50 years ago in what was still a very religous country at the time.

Infact no court in the European Union can hand down the death penalty, considering the fact that many countries like greece, Italy, spain and france have traditionally been seen as very religous I'd say thats a testament to "christian morals".

And our jails are comfortable, so death would be 99% of the time the worst option for an inmate.


America does seem to have a messed up conservative idea of what "christian morals" are.

Over here, liberal and christian go hand in hand, over your side of the pond it's conservative and christian for some messed up reason :\

Well see over here in America its completely opposite. Heavy southern baptist are usually more conservative that they are liberal. They see democrats as socialist and socialism to them is Hitlers Germany, a very sad view but the more and more I see this current race for 2012 the more it seems that belief is evident.

 

[Dango]

Never, absolutely no one deserves death.

NY, US.

 

[DungeonMonkey]

An alarming number of people are claiming death is "justice". The trouble is, justice is just a nice way to say revenge. In my eyes, any punishment has exactly two benefits:

- Keeping the offender from offending again, and

- making an example so others don't break laws.

Unfortunately, as recent insight into psychology reveals, nothing we have can provide benefit two, and prison only works for benefit one until the prisoners get out. It is also, as has been pointed out, extremely expensive.

In my opinion, the value of a life is equal to the happiness they bring to others, minus the unhappiness they bring, plus a bit. Therefore, the life of any major criminal (who science says will never be rehabilitated anyway) such as a murderer, rapist, or wall street executive, is worth nothing. They should be deposed of in the most cost effective way possible (death stands out here).

 

[Kal-Adam]

both my father and Grandfather were prison guards, so i'v both heard stories and seen things about some of these monsters who commit such crimes. I feel that we certainly are not doing the world any harm be getting rid of a few of them.

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

I think no one deserves death, but it all depends on the moment.

If a man has a knife and is threatening you or a loved one, I would try to not kill him, but if I have to, I will.

but hopefully that never happens

If a man murders people and Im in-charge of his case, a life sentence in prison.

This coming from the guy who drove me off a cliff in Mariokart.

I believe that we all deserve death. If it weren't for Jesus we would all die.

The death penalty, though, is never acceptable.

 

[StormShaun]

I think no one deserves death, but it all depends on the moment.

If a man has a knife and is threatening you or a loved one, I would try to not kill him, but if I have to, I will.

but hopefully that never happens

If a man murders people and Im in-charge of his case, a life sentence in prison.

This coming from the guy who drove me off a cliff in Mariokart.

I believe that we all deserve death. If it weren't for Jesus we would all die.

The death penalty, though, is never acceptable.

You deserved it, I foretold the future that you would betray me...and also it was funny! XD

Also agreed.

 

[The_R3d_Fury]

I think no one deserves death, but it all depends on the moment.

If a man has a knife and is threatening you or a loved one, I would try to not kill him, but if I have to, I will.

but hopefully that never happens

If a man murders people and Im in-charge of his case, a life sentence in prison.

This coming from the guy who drove me off a cliff in Mariokart.

I believe that we all deserve death. If it weren't for Jesus we would all die.

The death penalty, though, is never acceptable.

You deserved it, I foretold the future that you would betray me...and also it was funny! XD

Also agreed.

How did I deserve it? "HI SHAUN!" *bump* "AAAARGH!"

okay, YOU deserve the death penalty for that. The only exception.

 

[Pummet]

London, England.

Such a right wing thing to say that anybody who has murdered somebody should be murdered themselves, or that people should be tortured for commiting crimes, we're not animals people.

The amount of miscarriages of justice that happen every year would result in tons of "criminals" being wrongly murdered.What about the people in America who have been wrongly imprisoned on death row for years only to be released. Spending every day thinking its going to be your last.

Though of course, if somebody has tortured somebody to death, and we just torture them right back, how is that justified? Its ridiculous.

Hate these kinds of topics xD


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