When is a game too ''Japanese'' for you?

[Erttheking]

Snip

You bring up a good point but one problem I tend to have with fanservice is that it often doesn't fit. The souls in Sunless Sea fit the tone of the game. In quite a bit of my experience, there's a fair chunk of fanservice that just doesn't fit. For example, any major time there's supposed to be a serious battle and they give me gianaxing, it takes me out of the story. For example, when I was watching Gundam SEED and that happened with the main captain all of the freaking time, even in the battle where the "good guys" decide to use a kill sat to wipe out the enemy army and don't care that it causes a massive friendly fire incident in a show that almost always takes itself super seriously. The fanservice that they give to us there REALLY doesn't fit, clashes with the tone. There were a couple of instances in the show where there was fanservice that actually fit the tone of the story (like when one character sleeps with another to manipulate him) but aside from that, a rather grim series that presents itself as rather hard and depressing doesn't feel like the place for fanservice

Kill la Kill on the other hand, that's a show where the fanservice actually makes sense. It fits the tone of the show goofy as hell, off the rails and in a world of absolute insanity. It has its serious moments too, but unlike SEED its positioned itself to be in a place where the serious moments and the fanservice can actually blend together well. Ironically in my experience with fanservice is that it's rather...soulless. They try and tell a regular story and they just cram it in without any rhyme or reason. It almost feels like a tacked on multiplayer mode. Nothing is really DONE with it. Fanservice can actually ADD to the story if it just does one of the following

-Fit a character's personality

-Fit a world's tone

-Be used to set a mood

And probably other ways I can't think of at the moment. Just throwing it in there where it doesn't fit just clashes with the tone. To go back to Sunless Sea, it'd be like if you had to sell souls in a game that isn't as delightfully bleak as Sunless Sea, like Kirby. (What do we do with those souls again? I know the Devils like them but that's the only reason hinted at)

 

[EternallyBored]

And before you go saying that, as you said, I am all 'violence good, naughtiness bad', here's a wake-up call: violence is *equally* as shallow as fanservice. Mortal Kombat, for example, is praised as one of the most brutal, and at times, gory game series out there. And yeah, it can be entertaining for that reason alone. But that doesn't mean I'm going to find games like Pokemon, Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton, Persona 4 Golden less enjoyable because they don't measure up in the violence department. They don't need to. They can and do stand up on their own merits. That level of violence may work for Mortal Kombat, and if it chooses to continue pursuing that level of violence, then by all means. But I don't need that much violence in every game or show. It's the same way with sexual fanservice.

I can give some of my personal examples of places where violence or gore are used in a way that can detract from the game.

The blood effects from the Dragon Age games. After a brutal battle having your characters drenched in blood and gore is an interesting touch, having them drenched in blood after a bar brawl in the middle of town or trying to have touching silly or romantic scenes covered in blood just looks dumb and detracts from those scenes.

The obligatory combat and violence in games like Uncharted and Tomb Raider. I can accept a necessary amount of violence in each game, with a fun combat system I can even accept most of it, but the amount of combat and enemies the games throw at you sometimes just comes across as excessive. It feels like the developers thought we would stop playing if we spent too long exploring tombs or solving ancient puzzles without putting a bullet into something's head every 10 minutes.

Combat as a crutch in RPGs: I dunno about other people, but it annoys me when games, especially open world RPGs turn violence into the only solution for every problem, especially when the game goes through the trouble of giving me charisma or speech skills and then makes the final boss, or even final third of the game basically just a giant combat gauntlet. I'm looking at you Vampire: the Masquerade, there's a reason I just cheat my way past the sewers on any character that isn't a pure combat build.

Violence really is a tool that is often used just like fanservice, as a lazy shallow way to engage the player. Neither is inherently bad, and they can both be used for incredible results, but it's a double-edged sword. Of course, some of that effectiveness comes down to personal preference as well.

 

[Dragonpit]

And before you go saying that, as you said, I am all 'violence good, naughtiness bad', here's a wake-up call: violence is *equally* as shallow as fanservice. Mortal Kombat, for example, is praised as one of the most brutal, and at times, gory game series out there. And yeah, it can be entertaining for that reason alone. But that doesn't mean I'm going to find games like Pokemon, Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton, Persona 4 Golden less enjoyable because they don't measure up in the violence department. They don't need to. They can and do stand up on their own merits. That level of violence may work for Mortal Kombat, and if it chooses to continue pursuing that level of violence, then by all means. But I don't need that much violence in every game or show. It's the same way with sexual fanservice.

I can give some of my personal examples of places where violence or gore are used in a way that can detract from the game.

The blood effects from the Dragon Age games. After a brutal battle having your characters drenched in blood and gore is an interesting touch, having them drenched in blood after a bar brawl in the middle of town or trying to have touching silly or romantic scenes covered in blood just looks dumb and detracts from those scenes.

The obligatory combat and violence in games like Uncharted and Tomb Raider. I can accept a necessary amount of violence in each game, with a fun combat system I can even accept most of it, but the amount of combat and enemies the games throw at you sometimes just comes across as excessive. It feels like the developers thought we would stop playing if we spent too long exploring tombs or solving ancient puzzles without putting a bullet into something's head every 10 minutes.

Combat as a crutch in RPGs: I dunno about other people, but it annoys me when games, especially open world RPGs turn violence into the only solution for every problem, especially when the game goes through the trouble of giving me charisma or speech skills and then makes the final boss, or even final third of the game basically just a giant combat gauntlet. I'm looking at you Vampire: the Masquerade, there's a reason I just cheat my way past the sewers on any character that isn't a pure combat build.

Violence really is a tool that is often used just like fanservice, as a lazy shallow way to engage the player. Neither is inherently bad, and they can both be used for incredible results, but it's a double-edged sword. Of course, some of that effectiveness comes down to personal preference as well.

Yeah, there is an element to personal preference to this, I agree. That's why I'll never chew someone out for appreciating and enjoying the fanservice. But just because you can enjoy it and do, that doesn't necessarily means it belongs in the show you're watching or the game you're playing. I can think a few examples in games where the directors thought up ideas for those games that they thought was cool, and that the audience agrees with, that in turn had the unfortunate effect of bringing down the game's said quality. The Kingdom Hearts series comes to mind, because you gotta admit, the only reason why Nomura is bringing up time travel in Dream Drop Distance is so that he could have the excuse to revive characters that should be dead for his own special Ultimate Battle of Ultimate Destiny. And it's a cool idea on paper, as a culmination of the series thus far, but considering that the time travel in question has confused the continuity beyond recognition, such as how his preferred method of time travel, which according to his rules cannot meddle in with the past, does not actually mess with the past since going back, even without a body, automatically does just that: mess with the past, because there's already something there that by all rights shouldn't be. This was something that should've been saved for another project, or at least for time where it could've been executed with more grace.

Bringing it back to the point, when anime throws in fanservice or violence for the sake of it (and you can't tell me it sets the tone; compare Infinite Stratos' fanservice to when we first meet Melfina in Outlaw Star, because it's not the fanservice alone setting the tone there), I can't help but be taken out of the experience because beyond proving the main character or someone else is a pervert, you do have to wonder if it is there for some other reason that just being there.

And you are right about the violence aspect. I'm recalling Xenoblade Chronicles, with the Telethea. You spend a good portion of the game killing some, until late game, when a side quest opens up, where upon learning there could be a way of restoring them to their originals forms, and you only get this quest after learning what their original forms are. Yet, for whatever reason, Telethea are still standard enemies, despite the fact that we know know they could be cured. It almost feels like your efforts regarding them are somewhat undercut somehow. That may not be the appropriate phrase to use to describe the situation, but at the time of writing this, I am also sleep-deprived, so I hope I did at least get my point across and you will cut me some slack.

I am not the biggest connoisseur of sexual fanservice, but I do understand that it has a place, that it can work. Bayonetta comes very strongly to mind as an example. I also think sexual fanservice has become far too commonplace in anime and manga today, which is why it has become something of a turn-off for me as of late. Like when a dog who loves lapping up alcohol suddenly drinks too much and acquires anything between a distaste to an out-and-out hatred for it. While a quality anime doesn't necessarily *not* have it, I also don't think they have to rely on it to grab and hold on to its viewers.

 

[aozgolo]

TBH 80% of the time, voice acting makes it too Japanese for me. I used to love JRPGs growing up, I played tons of them, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Suikoden, Seiken Denetsu, Earthbound, Chrono Trigger... I was in love with them, but most modern ones can't hold my interest at all and it took me awhile to figure out it's because the damned voice acting takes me out of my immersion into the game. It's hard to explain but I love subtitled anime, yet when I hear this highly polished 3D cel-shaded magical girl trying to use her 12 year old voice to carry the emotional heft of the storyline, I just can't... I simply can't.

It's a shame because there's so many JRPGs that look fantastic but with the few exceptions like Dragon Quest, I've pretty much slipped away from the genre.

 

[lionsprey]

its to "Japanese" for me when i can't understand the text. however as i am currently learning Japanese soon (hopefully) not even that won't stop me from all the animu!

 

[EMWISE94]

I think its down to a variety of things, that include, but are not limited to:

- Character Design
- Dialogue Dumps
- Repetitive audio design (this is mostly a fighting game thing but having characters just spout the name of their attack everytime they do it, in the same exact way just grates me)
- Trope-based Characters (yes every character ever is based on some trope, but sometimes it gets to the point where its almost like the writers gave said characters a trope rather than traits)
- Art Styles/Direction

there's more, but I feel that if I were to truly break down what I don't like about certain recurring Japanese media triats it'd be paragraphs long and I'm not one for creating walls of texts in forums. Also some of this applies to Western media too but again, paragraphs.

 

[Loonyyy]

When it's that obnoxious "Japanese" stuff. Like, Japan isn't a monoculture, and it's kind of creepy how specific and razor focussed the stuff that a lot of geeky and nerdy people are on a very specific idea of what Japan is.

I'm especially partial to the claim that goes along the lines of "Thing X is popular in Japan because the samurai come from there!"
What, is every fucking Japanese man a descendant of the samurai?! Are they all attending iajutsu schools after school or something?

@Loonyyy that seems like an issue with weeaboos (remember when they were called wapanese? Funny how 4chan's word filter changed it) than Japanese games themselves. I don't know of any games made that fetishize Japan as a glorious land of otaku where you can go be a manga-ka and have a Japanese girlfriend.

Wait, thought of one! Maybe Akiba's Trip. Probably some VNs as well but I don't play them.

Yeah, like Japan isn't all ninjas, Samurai, honor culture, anime, kawaii, manga. Hell, some of the stuff that westerners go nuts over is actually looked down on in Japan. A lot of Japanese folk would have a serious problem with the lifestyle of weaboos. Hell, there's apparently a bit of a culture clash there between younger folk who're into that stuff and the older generation, although I'm not going to presume to speak on it, because I'm not going to presume I know a culture from watching a fucking cartoon with ambulatory tits and talking teddy bears.

This isn't "When is a game to (sic) Japanese for you?". This is "When is this game too weaboo anime for you?". Don't hide your appreciation for cringe inducing bad anime behind Japan.

And seriously guys, harem anime, incestual children, and noseblood? Reeeeeaaaaalllllyyyyyy. Tsundere's and cockteases? Come on, watch end of eva again and don't pretend it's not a little aimed at anime fans. Like seriously, bare minimum you're always going to be arguing about fanservice and trying to justify it. Why it's necessary to have glaring poses and titillation that even the west finds offputting. Anyone who wants to call me a prude-go to fucking Japan. You'll discover it's a lot more prudish. It's not sexually enlightened, it's just shitty porn for people who can't get better, spliced into your show with the grace of a collision between a soccer mom's SUV and a freight train. Least my porn doesn't need to blur out the dicks.

The last two Japanese games I played were Dark Souls and Super Mario 3D World. They're not less Japanese just because they don't look like anime.

 

[LostCrusader]

When the story is about teenagers using the power of friendship to kill god.

 

[pearcinator]

I couldn't get into Okami because it was too Japanese. I thought the art style was blurry too.

 

[TomWiley]

For me, it's when any and all female characters suddenly have eyes larger than lakes and look like they're 12 despite the fact that they're supposed to be adults. These seems to be a oddly persistent trope in many Japanese games.

I had this experience with a horror game on Wii-U which I tried with a friend a few days back (the name escapes me). The game had some major issues but the character design alone made it practically unplayable.

 

[NPC009]

With what money? Good VAs are expensive. And the japanese games tend to not sell enough for the localization team to afford Nolan North or Troy Baker.

As for your last point, stop watching shit anime and playing shit JRPGs

Fun fact: Troy Baker break-through roles were in JRPG's. Before you heard him in games like the Last of Us, he was Yuri (Tales of Vesperia) and Kanji (Persona 4) to me. Heck, he's been in games much less mainstream than that, such as Mana Khemia 2! Same with Laura Bailey

Companies like Atlus, NISA and Bandai Namco are indeed working with much more limited budgets, but they do have an idea for voice talent. If something does go wrong, it usually has something to do with the material (some games just don't give voice actors all that much to work with), lack of proper direction (do not underestimate the role of the director) or time constraints (meaning lines can only be read a handful of times at most).

 

[Lady Larunai]

Probably at the point its developed in japan... when its "too" japanese for me is when it contains Kanji as I am unable to read japanese

 

[ccggenius12]

32 year old people who are classed as 'old men/women' (I sometimes think Japan has a very warped and crazy idea of age in general.)

I like to think it's because 32 is where Asian people stop physically aging. I mean, after around 65 they look 100, but in that window in between, absolutely no change.

I have the perfect example of a TOO-MUCH NIPPON! game for you, OP.
Sounds like a neat concept, right? Now comes the kicker: In each generation, the protagonist (who is always male because his father is apparently incapable of siring daughters) is tasked with seeking a bride and procreating with her to produce the next generation's hero. Said bride is usually one of the party members of that generation and the manner in which the protagonist (and by extension, the player) chooses the (un)lucky girl is as follows: All potential mates will quite literally line up in front of the protagonist and ask a series of bizarrely pointed questions ('How do you feel about a strong woman?', 'Would you trust a woman who doesn't know how to cook?') and the answers one picks informs which one of them becomes the bride.

This is a failing on the part of the developers that I think I can remedy with a little something from yesteryear.

Spoiler

OT: Much like art, I have no clue, but I'll know it when I see it (I hope).

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

On seven year old generals remember one of the greatest strategists was a 14 year old who would along with his advisor joined forces with the Oda who united Japan, his name is Taketaka Shiegharu. It's not a stretch to celebrate such a figure by having a young general, although it does stretch the sensibilities of westerners

But what is too Japanese for me is Chuunibyou (Grade 10 student) inspired plots. Neptunia and a lot of anime that the western anime audience think its crap has some elements of a Chuuni inspired imagination like SAO and whatever drek coming from a LN plot. Think Eragon without any form of editing supervision and unnecessary descriptive scenes of girls taking a bath.

 

[9tailedflame]

When there's no english subtitles or dub.

 

[LK9988]

When it's good.

 

[Hades]

With what money? Good VAs are expensive. And the japanese games tend to not sell enough for the localization team to afford Nolan North or Troy Baker.

As for your last point, stop watching shit anime and playing shit JRPGs

Fun fact: Troy Baker break-through roles were in JRPG's. Before you heard him in games like the Last of Us, he was Yuri (Tales of Vesperia) and Kanji (Persona 4) to me. Heck, he's been in games much less mainstream than that, such as Mana Khemia 2! Same with Laura Bailey

Companies like Atlus, NISA and Bandai Namco are indeed working with much more limited budgets, but they do have an idea for voice talent. If something does go wrong, it usually has something to do with the material (some games just don't give voice actors all that much to work with), lack of proper direction (do not underestimate the role of the director) or time constraints (meaning lines can only be read a handful of times at most).

True but I also hear that Troy Baker flat out isn't allowed to do jrpg's anymore after he joined a union.

 

[Manawa]

Fanservice.
Wardrobe.
Katawa Shoujo.
Harem plots.
High school setting.
Gratuitous campy characters.
Vaguely effeminate villains.
Retarded dialogue.
Every second line of dialogue starts by repeating the first line of dialogue.
Panty shots.
Female anatomy.
Female armor.
Hyperdimension Neptunia.
Squad of Elite Strippers.
Passive-aggressive love interest.
13-stage bosses.
7 year old generals.
21 year old "veterans".
Kill God.
Save the World.
CHOTTO MATTE KUDASAI!

Also impossibly difficult, thankless games where style is championed over getting things done, and you're graded based on an average of EVERYTHING, and even though you did impeccably on combo, time and damage you get a C+ because you failed to break your controller while reacting to that one fucking QTE.

This.
Also - Obnoxiously loud characters with ADHD, brooding badassess, lolis and MAMORU

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Fanservice.
Wardrobe.
Katawa Shoujo.
Harem plots.
High school setting.
Gratuitous campy characters.
Vaguely effeminate villains.
Retarded dialogue.
Every second line of dialogue starts by repeating the first line of dialogue.
Panty shots.
Female anatomy.
Female armor.
Hyperdimension Neptunia.
Squad of Elite Strippers.
Passive-aggressive love interest.
13-stage bosses.
7 year old generals.
21 year old "veterans".
Kill God.
Save the World.
CHOTTO MATTE KUDASAI!

Also impossibly difficult, thankless games where style is championed over getting things done, and you're graded based on an average of EVERYTHING, and even though you did impeccably on combo, time and damage you get a C+ because you failed to break your controller while reacting to that one fucking QTE.

All of this.

It's always felt as though Western games at least try to present some kind of versimilitude in terms of character design - psychologically, in this case, not physically. I don't mind the crazy and impractical Squaresoft designs, for instance, but I do mind the weird fixation on the "cocky ing?nue" type who saves the world despite not being out of puberty, or the way "Old Age" seems to start once you reach your thirties.

It's as if the teenage sense of invincibility were some sort of cornerstone for a lot of JRPG character designs, and any character who packs every other bit of expected JRPG Awesomesauce but somehow lacks that particular chutzpah has to fall into the "grizzled old veteran" category. There has to be a market outside of these overused Shonen tropes, right?

I mean, look at how popular Geralt of Rivia's ended up being in Europe and the US - it's clear there's some demand for settings involving mature adults.

 

[tzimize]

Depends.

If the game is supposed to be even half-way serious it gets too japanese to me when its blatantly obvious that PC costumes have been designed with cosplay, not practicality in mind. It just completely breaks my immersion and I cant take it seriously. And this is most japanese games nowadays :|

Also, their ridiculous hairstyles. The final fantasy demo where those douchebags were driving around in a convertible in the gameworld and there was some huge dinosaur/beast/something, and they fought it. It looked like they were on spring break ffs. Utterly retarded.