When is a game too ''Japanese'' for you?

[Zombie Proof]

As a former Japanophile, I've kind of outgrown the whole Japanese aesthetic when I started studying writing and story structure and began working more in the arts. Tons of things that I used to just let go by because of my aesthetic inclination revealed themselves to be glaring flaws in terms of storytelling and I've been turned off since. Some of those things are:

1. A focus on Caricature vs Character.
I hate the fact that Goku and Naruto are the exact same person. I hate that Vegeta and Hie from Yu Yu Hakusho are the exact same guy. They say the exact same things, have the exact same wants, and have the exact same motivations. I'm bored to death of characters who are the exact same but with slightly different coats of paint.

2. A lack of "Form Follows Function" design.
Every detail in a character's design should tell you a story about them and where they've been. Each piece should have a traceable origin who's addition to that character adds a layer and a function. All of Geralt of Rivia's designs follow this design philosophy in spades and it's one of the reasons why I love The Witcher series so much. The design is so thorough that my mind can identify the elements that compose him and real life resonance seeps through, making me feel more engaged. Every strap is made from familiar material. Every buckle has a function. I can almost smell the leather.

This, on the other hand is supposed to be a mechanic. Someone who deals with hot grease, oil, and heavy machinery, but she's dressed like a porn star in a sexy mechanic's costume. The disconnect caused from the lack of any real life resonance is staggering. Only thing left to draw me in is a predisposition to the aesthetic and like I said, I've long outgrown that.

3.Banal dialogue.
One of the rules of writing and dialogue is that if you have two characters that agree in a scene, the scene is worthless and you should scrap it. Narrative evolution is born out of character conflict, no matter how minute.

Notice how each beat of dialogue with Zoltan and Geralt goes back and forth between what one character thinks is the truth vs what the other knows is the truth and through those minute differences, story beats progress. Also, notice how each characters delivery of their dialogue teaches you things about their points of view and personalities without anyone flat out telling you what those points of view and personality traits are. That's how dialogue works in literary storytelling.

This here is the polar opposite of the example above with it's awkward grunts and hamfisted character proclamations *shudder* It's simply painful to listen to. Oh, and grunts and sighs does not dialogue make. Yuck. And scope out those gorgeous "revolutionaries" None of their outfits, not one part about any one characters outfit speaks revolutionary. The disconnect wrenches me right on out of the narrative.

So those are pretty much the things that make a game to "Japanese" to me. I just can't roll with that stuff no more.

 

[Hades]

I like anime but not the big eyed kind. If that makes any sense.. That's the only way I can describe it lol.

 

[Zombie Proof]

Fanservice.
...
CHOTTO MATTE KUDASAI!

Well, you hit most of mine. That being said, I don't always mind the camp. I think western media could use more camp instead of always trying to take itself so damn seriously.

Mainly I'm just fed up with how insular it is. You see the same setting all the time, the same characters, the same love interests, the same tropes, the same dynamics, etc... There's a quote that I like about this:

You see, whether you can draw like this or not, being able to think up this kind of design, it depends on whether or not you can say to yourself, "Oh, yeah, girls like this exist in real life. If you don't spend time watching real people, you can't do this, because you've never seen it. Some people spend their lives interested only in themselves. Almost all Japanese animation is produced with hardly any basis taken from observing real people, you know. It's produced by humans who can't stand looking at other humans."

While I think it's a little harsh, I think it gets at some of the biggest issues in anime. Anime characters are written by observing anime characters, not by observing people

This runs parallel to several of my points actually. Very interesting seeing Miyazaki's take on the tomfoolery flitting on about his industry.

 

[McMarbles]

When it's untranslated. I just plain can't read Japanese.

 

[Gengisgame]

This, on the other hand is supposed to be a mechanic. Someone who deals with hot grease, oil, and heavy machinery, but she's dressed like a porn star in a sexy mechanic's costume. The disconnect caused from the lack of any real life resonance is staggering. Only thing left to draw me in is a predisposition to the aesthetic and like I said, I've long outgrown that.

That's your opinion and I understand why you may not like it but on the flip side this is one of those things I appreciate about Japanese culture that we seem to be losing here.

Doing things simply because that's what people like or fanservice as they call it.

I find anything to do with sexuality gets slammed with the realism card too often for me to believe that's the reason most of the time.

 

[Zombie Proof]

Sexuality and realism have nothing to do with it. After saying that, I'm not quite sure you actually understand why I don't like that stuff(my post was verbose so you may have to read it again to fully absorb all of the stuff in it). It has everything to do with the lack of depth and resonance in the creative process.

The above quote by Miyazaki touched on this:
"You see, whether you can draw like this or not, being able to think up this kind of design, it depends on whether or not you can say to yourself, "Oh, yeah, girls like this exist in real life. If you don't spend time watching real people, you can't do this, because you've never seen it. Some people spend their lives interested only in themselves. Almost all Japanese animation is produced with hardly any basis taken from observing real people, you know. It's produced by humans who can't stand looking at other humans."

Storytelling with multiple levels of resonance breeds a depth and gravity in you narrative that goes beyond merely pandering to those that are fans of the aesthetic. I like narrative depth, not something that will merely pander to the aesthetic that I'm into. Fanservice has nothing to do with any part of the process that strengthens literary merit so it's worthless to me.

 

[Musou Tensei]

I prefer something carefree and fun like Cidney over Mr Gritty who bangs all the bitches and witches from Witcher, also I love fanservice of course :3
The more realistic a game gets the more bored I am, that's one of the reasons why I buy more and more japanese games and less and less western ones.

 

[Zombie Proof]

Having elements that conjure up a sense of resonance doesn't read as realistic to me at all though. It provides a basis of reality that allows me to identify more with the fantastic elements. The Witcher isn't any more realistic than Final Fantasy, but the atmosphere is better because of all those subliminal signposts that call back to identifiable elements that exists in the real world. Again, you can actually "smell" the world of the witcher. I can't say that about any japanese rpg save for maybe the Souls series because they have a similar level of life resonance in their design.

Also, listening to characters that don't talk like people is a major turn off, especially if I have to deal with listening to that nonsensical gobbldy-gook for upwards of 30 hours. Yucko.

The carefree feeling comes from most of the open design and lack of blacks and rendered detail and I get that. The more blacks/rendering that are placed into visual design, the more your eye lingers on it and the more weight you associate with it. That's why I'll always prefer TF2 over something like COD aesthetically in competitive shooters. I'm there to bop about and have fun, not be all grimm-d-grimm.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

I find the dashes of Japaneses a little more lumpy. Like dragons dogma. It's doesn't look or play like a JRPG, you might not guess that it is one until you start reading the item names. You have eye droppers, softener, and cleaning cloth as cure items. It makes sense if your playing a FF because they have had items like that for years and you get it, but it really sticks out where the rest of the game looks like a WRPG and you expect different names for things.

 

[Sharia]

If there's one thing that makes certain Japanese games so captivating and a wonderful supplement to what I enjoy as a whole, it's that they don't strive so hard to be grounded. As someone who enjoys both The Witcher and the likes of ... say Neptunia, I've found standards to have no play in enjoying one over the other. Personally, I find they compliment one another quite nicely. God, I'd hate to one day find that my tastes have adjusted and have literally cut my interests right down; I don't see it happening though.

 

[Musou Tensei]

The thing is, I don't want that, I don't want to identify with vidya characters. Even in games with character creation, unless it allows for crazy stuff like Saints Row does, I normally just mess around a bit for laughs and then use a default character. Ecept in Mass Effect 1 where I created a female character myself, which funny enough, was almost looking like the official Fem Shep, which didn't existed back then, same hair style and color, just the face slightly different.
Also I was more about the art style and overall feeling being realistic, not the story.

Also, listening to characters that don't talk like people is a major turn off, especially if I have to deal with listening to that nonsensical gobbldy-gook for upwards of 30 hours. Yucko.

See and I prefer japanese voices over english ones in japanese games, with the rare exception of Platinum Games' games like TW101 and Bayo. On the other hand though, I also prefer english voices in western games over german ones, exceptions are the Fallout games and Deus Ex HR.

The carefree feeling comes from most of the open design and lack of blacks...

I assume you're not calling me a racist here, and if I'm correct, please tell me what you mean by lack of blacks, I don't understand.

 

[Sharia]

I presume he is referring to palette, black is generally characterized as being more morbid or grim. I don't agree with his assessment though. Personally, I find I can absorb myself into the world of Atelier or Neptunia just as easily as I can Dark Souls or The Witcher, the lack of identifiable elements has no bearing on that for me and I can feel and smell the atmosphere and the world they are trying to craft just as clearly, although obviously they are very different from one another.

 

[Zombie Proof]

Jesus Musou, lack of blacks in the artwork lol. Large areas of blacks/dark colors and heavy rendering.

Whether or not you agree with that assessment Sheria, the use of heavy blacks/dark colors are tools that artists use when they want to generate weight and make the viewer's eyes linger on the piece longer to create a more heavy feeling. The amount of blacks used, or the decision to use any at all bears a lot in the decisions on how we want our viewers to feel about a piece of work we generate.

You can see what I mean when take the almost weightless feel of this

compared to this.

Perceived "noise" is a factor too. The bottom pic reads more quiet than the above as well, another subliminal tool to be aware of when understanding why a particular pic feels the way it does.

*edit*
Also, your ability to become sucked into those worlds probably hinges on the fact that you're into the anime/manga aesthetic as well as the color schemes and techniques involved in their creation, a factor I also listed in one of the posts above. Aesthetic predisposition has a LOT to do with whether or not you can "get into" something.

*edit*
Oh, and I scoped out the use of blacks in Neptunia. Hopefully you can see by the examples above that this was NOT what I was talking about lol

 

[Sharia]

Also, your ability to become sucked into those worlds probably hinges on the fact that you're into the anime/manga aesthetic as well as the color schemes and techniques involved in their creation, a factor I also listed in one of the posts above. Aesthetic predisposition has a LOT to do with whether or not you can "get into" something.

Oh of course, a lot hinges on you being into it in the first place. I know all to well that when you are not, you naturally just don't even try. Bear in mind though, I was not simply referring to "getting into" something, I was referring to the level of absorption & immersion into the world that has been crafted.

Looking at the pictures, I agree with you about the feeling of weight that comes across, but that wasn't really what I was picking on because I don't find it a necessity.

 

[DementedSheep]

Fanservice.
Wardrobe.
Katawa Shoujo.
Harem plots.
High school setting.
Gratuitous campy characters.
Vaguely effeminate villains.
Retarded dialogue.
Every second line of dialogue starts by repeating the first line of dialogue.
Panty shots.
Female anatomy.
Female armor.
Hyperdimension Neptunia.
Squad of Elite Strippers.
Passive-aggressive love interest.
13-stage bosses.
7 year old generals.
21 year old "veterans".
Kill God.
Save the World.
CHOTTO MATTE KUDASAI!

Also impossibly difficult, thankless games where style is championed over getting things done, and you're graded based on an average of EVERYTHING, and even though you did impeccably on combo, time and damage you get a C+ because you failed to break your controller while reacting to that one fucking QTE.

Basically^
With the addition of obnoxiously loud protagonists, hyperactive with a high pitch voice side kicks, lolita, LOL MASTURBATION, "ACCIDENTALLY" GROPING SOMEONE AND RAPE, out of place "cute" scenes, the character who stands on the sidelines in fights to monologue about how everyone else is awesome and they are useless (bonus point if their big moment is dying in place of another character because they know they are dirt compared to them), long speeches before and/or after fights, lengthy stories about a characters life to sad music, retarded jiggle physics and high heels everywhere.

 

[Gray-Philosophy]

As soon as something is even vaguely similar to any kind of stereotypical anime-looking art style or Japanese high fantasy. It's almost a shame really, because it isn't necessarily a bad style or genre at all. I just feel like I see it so often that I'm growing tired of it, to the point where it can turn me off a game completely.

Curiously, it's sometimes even worse if it's subtle. Like a combination of "realistic" aesthetics and animefied details like prettified faces, oversized eyes and just slightly disproportionate weapons and armour. Often accompanied by completely inconsistent laws of physics.

That said, I don't actually mind just Japanese themes in general. Something like Okami for example, that game looks way cool. It did something different and original, but it still looks unmistakably Japanese


EDIT:

Fanservice.
Wardrobe.
Katawa Shoujo.
Harem plots.
High school setting.
Gratuitous campy characters.
Vaguely effeminate villains.
Retarded dialogue.
Every second line of dialogue starts by repeating the first line of dialogue.
Panty shots.
Female anatomy.
Female armor.
Hyperdimension Neptunia.
Squad of Elite Strippers.
Passive-aggressive love interest.
13-stage bosses.
7 year old generals.
21 year old "veterans".
Kill God.
Save the World.
CHOTTO MATTE KUDASAI!

Also impossibly difficult, thankless games where style is championed over getting things done, and you're graded based on an average of EVERYTHING, and even though you did impeccably on combo, time and damage you get a C+ because you failed to break your controller while reacting to that one fucking QTE.

Also this

 

[StormShaun]

There are so many ways this can go.
Heck, I'm probably annoyed by so much of it, that I can't be bothered listing it all.
Personally, at the top, I really dislike...

- Heavy fanservice.
- Gigantic breasts that are shoved in your face.
- Bad writing. (I can take a certain amount from anything, but sometimes it can be too much.)

I would also add "harem plots", but at that stage, I would have dropped the game and completely shat all over it.

 

[CorrosiveSoul]

Games like Neptunia etc... are too Japanese for my taste.

 

[Michel Henzel]

Nope, can't think of anything. So I'm going for the "There is no such thing for me" answer.
I've looked at what other people listed and nope, I can't really say that anything so that has been said is too japanese for me.
I love things like the HyperDimension, Disgaea, Tales of, Senran Kagura, Valkyria Chronicles, Ar Tonelico series of games. And all of them contain pretty much all the things people have listed as not liking, so yeah I'm fine with it all.

 

[Skatalite]

^That post up there from Johnny Novgorod sums it up well. Another thing I don't like is how dialogue is often very melodramatic or cheesy, and there's almost always that one overly cutesy girl with a squeaky voice in there. I can't stand it. :I