When is elitism justifiable?

[Rattja]

I cant help to think that "Fan of..." is being used in a way too broad manner.
If you say you are a fan of Anime/manga, does that automatically mean that you are a fan of everything?
As a personal example, I like the art style, so I say I love it although there are just a few shows I actually like to watch. Some of it I can't even stand.
The question I'm trying to ask here is how much of "X" do you have to like/enjoy/know, before you can call yourself a fan of it?

As for elitism? From having been on both sides of that fence I say people should be allowed to do/act as they want with the vast experience and knowledge about the given subject. Mostly because I don't feel there is a right answer.
The way I see it is if you know just about everything there is to know about something, you are (in this field) better than the rest. Call it what you want, but elite/expert/professional is the best of the best and it is a tricky place to be in.
The question becomes how do you handle it?

You could try to educate people, but then there are some people who hate that.
You could brag about it, as you sort of have the right to, but people hate that.
You could just not say anything, but how would people know how much you know? And not being able to talk about it is boring for you.

The sad truth about it is that the more of a fan you are, or the more you know about something, the harder it will be to meet someone that knows as much as you. Needless to say this will lead to less people that you can geek out about whatever it may be.
So I ask again, when you sit there with the whole Potter universe in your head, or know every line in that anime you watched 100 times, who do you share it with, and how?

 

[Westaway]

It is always justifiable. Hierarchies exist everywhere, there is so sense in denying them. The world is at the mercy of the economic elites. Fields are dominated by their elites. Schools are dominated by the elite students.
If you know more than someone else, pretending you don't is incredibly slineless

 

[NiPah]

I think you're using the wrong word here.
A fan is just a person with "a person who has a strong interest in or admiration for a particular person or thing.".
Now if someone claimed to be an ultra zealous fanatic verging on neuroticism then you can call them on their bullshit, but as it stands they can still claim to be a fan.

 

[Mumbly]

It is always justifiable. Hierarchies exist everywhere, there is so sense in denying them. The world is at the mercy of the economic elites. Fields are dominated by its elites. Schools are dominated by the elite students.
If you know more than someone else, pretending you don't is incredibly slineless

Again, you're confusing "the fact that someone's going to come up on top in any given environment" with "elitism". One is pretty much a fact of reality...the other is an attitude.

 

[Westaway]

It is always justifiable. Hierarchies exist everywhere, there is so sense in denying them. The world is at the mercy of the economic elites. Fields are dominated by its elites. Schools are dominated by the elite students.
If you know more than someone else, pretending you don't is incredibly slineless

Again, you're confusing "the fact that someone's going to come up on top in any given environment" with "elitism". One is pretty much a fact of reality...the other is an attitude.

"Elitism" is a political position advocating for rule by the elites. "Elitism" as it is being used in this thread is nothing more than acknowledging that when someone knows more than you on a certain subject, their opinion is worth more than yours.

 

[Mumbly]

It is always justifiable. Hierarchies exist everywhere, there is so sense in denying them. The world is at the mercy of the economic elites. Fields are dominated by its elites. Schools are dominated by the elite students.
If you know more than someone else, pretending you don't is incredibly slineless

Again, you're confusing "the fact that someone's going to come up on top in any given environment" with "elitism". One is pretty much a fact of reality...the other is an attitude.

"Elitism" is a political position advocating for rule by the elites. "Elitism" as it is being used in this thread is nothing more than acknowledging that when someone knows more than you on a certain subject, their opinion is worth more than yours.

I must hand it to you, there's no way I could make that any vaguer even if I tried.

Alright let's take it from the top. Define "elites" for me, please. Then show me how "elites" is an universally applicable context. Because obviously you don't want to let a guy run your nation just because he happens to be the best mountain climber in the world (i.e. is THE most elite in his field). So it has to be universally applicable to hold any merit at all.

 

[Westaway]

It is always justifiable. Hierarchies exist everywhere, there is so sense in denying them. The world is at the mercy of the economic elites. Fields are dominated by its elites. Schools are dominated by the elite students.
If you know more than someone else, pretending you don't is incredibly slineless

Again, you're confusing "the fact that someone's going to come up on top in any given environment" with "elitism". One is pretty much a fact of reality...the other is an attitude.

"Elitism" is a political position advocating for rule by the elites. "Elitism" as it is being used in this thread is nothing more than acknowledging that when someone knows more than you on a certain subject, their opinion is worth more than yours.

I must hand it to you, there's no way I could make that any vaguer even if I tried.

Alright let's take it from the top. Define "elites" for me, please. Then show me how "elites" is an universally applicable context. Because obviously you don't want to let a guy run your nation just because he happens to be the best mountain climber in the world (i.e. is THE most elite in his field). So it has to be universally applicable to hold any merit at all.

There are elites of specific fields- for example, the best mountain climbers with the greatest achievements are the elites of mountain climbers, just as Harold Bloom is a literary elite. Then there are the economic and political elites, who more or less dictate how the world works. Easy example: the Rothschild family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism

 

[DeaDRabbiT]

When I think of elitism, I think of it on the political spectrum and how it can actually effect people's lives.

Nobody cares if you've read/watched 5000 more animuus or mangers than anyone else, that just means you have a lot less things to deal with in real life, and I'm sure that knowledge will set you in good standing for social situations where nobody is gonna give a fuck how much of a super fan you are.

Quoted for Truth.

When you're Felix Baumgartner and jump out of a balloon at the edge of space, you can worry about your elitism level.

When you're a nerd quibbling over the dedication other nerds have towards your preferred hobby, you're probably not treading in "at what point is elitism ok" territory and thus shouldn't concern yourself with it.

Just enjoy yourself in life. If you get yourself into one of those "sticky" situations most introverts do sometimes where you have to "converse" with other people, be the guy that others want to learn from, not the guy that is trying to forcibly teach.

PS: This kind of elitism you're speaking of is never justifiable. Just sayin.

 

[Mumbly]

When I think of elitism, I think of it on the political spectrum and how it can actually effect people's lives.

Nobody cares if you've read/watched 5000 more animuus or mangers than anyone else, that just means you have a lot less things to deal with in real life, and I'm sure that knowledge will set you in good standing for social situations where nobody is gonna give a fuck how much of a super fan you are.

Quoted for Truth.

When you're Felix Baumgartner and jump out of a balloon at the edge of space, you can worry about your elitism level.

And even then, only when it comes to "Well, what's the highest elevation you jumped from?" And that particular aspect is largely...not relevant to life. At all.

Just enjoy yourself in life. If you get yourself into one of those "sticky" situations most introverts do sometimes where you have to "converse" with other people, be the guy that others want to learn from, not the guy that is trying to forcibly teach.

Quoted for truth.

There are elites of specific fields- for example, the best mountain climbers with the greatest achievements are the elites of mountain climbers, just as Harold Bloom is a literary elite. Then there are the economic and political elites, who more or less dictate how the world works. Easy example: the Rothschild family. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism

Well I don't think just being part of a dynasty should enable you to "more or less dictate how the world works".

 

[Smooth Operator]

You can be elitist all you want in your own circle, other people however are no more obligated to put up with your shit then you are to put up with theirs. If you want to impart important information on a topic that is fine, if you want to be pissy while doing it then go somewhere else.

 

[Entitled]

snip

Theoretically, it's possible to make a politely phrased, perfectly agreeable, value neutral claim about how you feel more at home around fans like yourself, than with younger, or more casual fans, but that's so far from the attributes of "elitism" that people treat as inappropriate, that it's not worth talking about.

When you "hate" the "ignorant fans" who don't know as much about some obscure piece of entertainment as you do, you are definitely embodying the worst aspects of elitism.

NO. These are not ignorant people, just people who happen to have other priorities in life. There are plenty of things that I call myself a fan of, where "fan" means "I have watched it, liked it, dropped in it's forum threads a few times, read a fanfiction or two, moved on". Elitists are the people who think that it makes me the part of some unwashed mob, some shallow, brainless nuisance, that I spent the rest of my week studying for my exams, rather than memorizing all the obscure trivia of the show.

And I'm on the other side of the fence quite often, too. As a Visual Novel fan I see people drooling over Katawa Shoujo and recommending it everywhere because it's literally the only VN that they have read, I see debates between anime fans who have formed their analysis of the "style" based on five shows from the same specific genre and subgenre and those who watched hundreds, I see gamers complain about how there are only bland generic shooters nowadays.

And when correct them, or side with the more veteran side, or step aside and conclude that I can't meaningfully talk with these people, I sometimes get called an elitist. You know why these calls are wrong? Because even when I correct, ignore, or pick sides, I'm not assuming that the other side is "ignorant" filthy untermenschen, and I certainly don't "hate" them for it, I just assume that the guy with the shallow views on gaming culture might also be a connoisseur of sci-fi literature, and the writer of pro-quality Harry Potter fanfiction, that the guy who hasn't heard about many VNs before might be a skilled political analyst, or that the one who is unclear about the extents of anime styles is far better at putting together PC hardware than me.

Yes, it sucks when you are not on the same level of enthusiasm as other people arund you, but ultimately it's YOUR job to seek out those who are, instead of just lashing out at everyone around you for being too ignorant about your personal obsession.

 

[FPLOON]

Eliteism is never justifiable. End of Story.

Elitism much like racism and sexism and classism (notice how very few things ending with ism are good?) is just another way for one group of people to feel better about themselves by pushing others down. It's like being the tallest person in a room because you took a golf cluub to the knees of everyone else in the room.


It's like in anime the whole Subs vs. Dubs debate. You'll find plenty of eltists on the sub side because by golluy that's how they watched it and so it is the superior way.

Basically this... I mean, even if one would say that elitism is justifiable when both sides are sharing each other's experiences, let alone one side learning up to speed thanks to the other side, in a positive manner, it's not really "elitism" since not one side feels the equivalent to being superior to the other in context...

Then again, maybe that's just my elitism showing, in therms of never seeing the true positives of someone being an elitist in general...

 

[Kotaro]

I understand being annoyed at people who aren't as familiar with a work as you are.
But really, you should just be glad that more people are enjoying it. If something is good, it's good when people appreciate it, yeah?

To use both examples given by the OP, I played the original Fate/stay night visual novel before Fate/Zero or UBW were things, but with them both out, I don't get angry if someone has watched them but doesn't know of the VN. Because it's good that they found something that they like. I'll point the VN out to them and encourage them to check it out, because it's also good, but I won't hold it against them if they didn't know about it.
Same with MegaTen. I own most of the games from the PS2 onward (including the copy of Nocturne that I never finished and probably never will), but I love seeing Persona fans, because Persona is just as polished as the other games in the franchise, just far more accessible (in fact, Persona is the gateway entry into the franchise that I will often recommend to people interested in MegaTen).

Just be glad that people are appreciating quality works. Don't piss on them just because they aren't as into them as you are.

 

[ForumSafari]

Well this is less...anime related...than the OP but in my field I'm well qualified. I have a high classification bachelors degree, years of experience and several secondary qualifications. My field is computing and more specifically network and Windows system administration so since my field involves computers nerds of all stripes think they know about it.

Largely they do not.

I have been known to simply tell people they do not know what they are talking about because they don't, but for some reason they think everyone is entitled to an opinion that others will consider and they get angry, even if they demonstrate that they don't know what they're saying. I think when you're having a discussion with some actual necessary knowledge it's fair to be elitist, the last thing you want to do is treat every opinion as equal and end up with reams of useless bullshit.

 

[Mumbly]

Well this is less...anime related...than the OP but in my field I'm well qualified. I have a high classification bachelors degree, years of experience and several secondary qualifications. My field is computing and more specifically network and Windows system administration so since my field involves computers nerds of all stripes think they know about it.

Largely they do not.

I have been known to simply tell people they do not know what they are talking about because they don't, but for some reason they think everyone is entitled to an opinion that others will consider and they get angry, even if they demonstrate that they don't know what they're saying. I think when you're having a discussion with some actual necessary knowledge it's fair to be elitist, the last thing you want to do is treat every opinion as equal and end up with reams of useless bullshit.

I don't see saying "Listen, let me do my job here, I'm qualified to do this, you're not" as elitism, it's just a simple fact. Elitism would be you assuming that people you fix the systems for wear underpants on their head when they're home and don't know what copy/paste means.

 

[ForumSafari]

I don't see saying "Listen, let me do my job here, I'm qualified to do this, you're not" as elitism, it's just a simple fact. Elitism would be you assuming that people you fix the systems for wear underpants on their head when they're home and don't know what copy/paste means.

Not really, some have demonstrated the second one.

However, by the dictionary definition I am an elitist. I am proud to know what I know and I am selective as to whose opinions I treat with merit or engage with based on their knowledge base. I am selective about who I treat as being on my level and worthy of joining us (job interviews and all) and I believe in the leadership of our business section by people that belong to our group since they are the only ones able to make informed decisions.

That's why elitism is so tricky to actually condemn; we both know what you mean but in a lot of cases supposed elitism is actually people that don't understand a field mouthing off, being treated with the disdain they've earned and not much liking it.

 

[Vigormortis]

Even though elitism is frowned upon by many people, is it ever justified given the right circumstances?

Sure! People really ought to avoid weighing in with their uninformed opinions of high level physics, for example.

Mmm, while I agree giving too much stock in uninformed opinions is a very stupid thing to do (regardless of whether you're giving or receiving that opinion), I don't think even those situations necessitate the need for elitism. Not within the context of the common parlance of the word.

Going by your example above, it's the difference between saying, "You're wrong, but let me explain why." and "You're an idiot and you should stay out of things you don't understand."

One is constructive. The other not. And while the broad, general definition of elitism could 'validate' both responses, the common usage of the term would only really include the latter. And as I usually prefer constructive discussions and criticisms, I do not believe elitism is entirely justified in most situations.

This is not to say I believe it's never justified. There are some situations wherein elitism is one of only a few options for response to a given situation. I'm just not convinced these instances are anything more than the rarest of situations.

Of course, on the other hand, going by the broad definition of the term as seen in a dictionary, elitism is quite often justifiable. Even beneficial, at times. So I suppose it depends on which specific definition of the word we're going with. And even this is contextualized by the culture within which the term is used.

...No. Fandom elitism is not justified. I mean, maybe in the specific discussion of esoteric knowledge thereof, perhaps, but looking down on people for being fans of the best parts of a fiction rather than all of it is patently ridiculous.

This, though, I couldn't agree with more. Elitism with something that is by definition subjective is so absurd it's laughable.

 

[Mumbly]

I don't see saying "Listen, let me do my job here, I'm qualified to do this, you're not" as elitism, it's just a simple fact. Elitism would be you assuming that people you fix the systems for wear underpants on their head when they're home and don't know what copy/paste means.

Not really, some have demonstrated the second one.

However, by the dictionary definition I am an elitist. I am proud to know what I know and I am selective as to whose opinions I treat with merit or engage with based on their knowledge base. I am selective about who I treat as being on my level and worthy of joining us (job interviews and all) and I believe in the leadership of our business section by people that belong to our group since they are the only ones able to make informed decisions.

That's why elitism is so tricky to actually condemn; we both know what you mean but in a lot of cases supposed elitism is actually people that don't understand a field mouthing off, being treated with the disdain they've earned and not much liking it.

Okay, I'll rephrase.

Elitism is assuming that someone is worse than you in in all aspects of life because you happen to be better than them in one field. For example, if I was a world class footballer and treated you like a second-class citizen solely because I know how to kick the ball around better than you do, I'd be elitist. Or if I actually kicked your ass in football, and then proceeded to be an ass about it myself. Sore winners are the only thing worse than sore losers.

If I just told you that you have little chance against me on the pitch, that's not elitism.

It's not wrong to be proud of what you know, after all, that's an accomplishment. But if you're an ass about it, that's another story.

 

[K12]

I think the idea that being a fan of something makes you an elite is kind of weird.

You can be very familiar with something without being at all critical or analytic about it. Just look at the way parent's often have ridiculous conceptions of their own children's abilities.

The only way that "elite" makes sense when you're talking about entertainment is when it comes to analysis and critique. Critics should be an elite but fans don't have to be. Breadth of experience trumps copiousness of experience every time.

And fundamentally it's all subjective opinion anyway so no-one is more correct than anyone else.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Honestly, I don't understand your attitude here. Looking down on people for not knowing as much about a subject as you do is really not a good thing most of the time.

It's unwarranted, and I don't understand why it bothers you what other people know about something.

They like it.

You like it.

You know more about it than them. Is that a reason to be an asshole about this though? You're talking fandoms here. There is no right or wrong way to be a fan of something. All it means is you like something.
How much you know about what you claim to like is really rather irrelevant.

Elitism really isn't a good thing in any way. It mostly comes across as one group trying to claim they are superior to another for some contrived arbitrary reason.

You aren't. But you'll cling to anything, no matter how contrived, to make yourself feel more important, more dedicated, better or whatever than someone else.
What that really indicates is often the opposite. You're so scared of being considered inferior, you try and put others down to prove you are better.

And that's the main reason it's disliked so much. Elitists tend to be horrible people to be around. Because it isn't about being better, or more knowledgeable, it's about constantly shoving it in people's face, and looking down at them, being abusive, etc. that defines elitism.
Not anything about who you really are in relation to these other people, but rather how you behave.

Is it OK to be elitist? No. Because being elitist is by definition being an asshole about something.

For instance,
Science is meant to be an objective, rational pursuit, and thus, it makes it relatively easy to demonstrate that indeed, some people's knowledge of certain scientific topics IS superior to that of others.
And yet, even where this is demonstrably true, if this person develops an elitist attitude about this fact, people would still generally rather avoid dealing with this person.

Knowing more than others is fine. Being an asshole about it, attacking others for their lack of knowledge, and so on, is not. The former is simply being knowledgeable. The second is what defines someone as being elitist.