When was the last time you had a civilized political/religious discussion?
- Thread starter Mysterious Stranger
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Why would you do that, in the one place where people are trying to discuss religion and politics in a cool and calm manner? Why?Heresy101 said:
I think you may be equally culpable in any hostile religious/political conversations.Heresy101 said:
Just my 2 cents.
OT: I have a friend who is a very intelligent Christian, and can defend her beliefs quite well. She also enjoys debating religion with me, so it's a pretty good set-up.
i have a christian gamer friend, we always discuss our beliefs (i dont believe in any religion but i do think there is a God) i love talking to him, he explains everything he knows at his best and backs off when there is something he doesn´t understand
also, i vote for "PAN" (a political party) and one of my friends is "PRD" (another one) wich are exact oposites (or at least thats what they claim) we always discuss the most recent statements and why we both think our party is the best, we have our own oppinions (very different oppinions) but we can live without shouting
EDIT: i just realized that if you want to discuss something in particular without offending the other you should do it not thinking about "winning the argument", that way both of you will be able to get your ideas across
also, i vote for "PAN" (a political party) and one of my friends is "PRD" (another one) wich are exact oposites (or at least thats what they claim) we always discuss the most recent statements and why we both think our party is the best, we have our own oppinions (very different oppinions) but we can live without shouting
EDIT: i just realized that if you want to discuss something in particular without offending the other you should do it not thinking about "winning the argument", that way both of you will be able to get your ideas across
I have a friend who is a rare gem, as he is a fairly devout christian, and yet he is not only able to argue his side on political things without letting his religion cloud his judgement or common sense, and is able to accept other's ideas on the subject. I was able to convince him to vote no on prop 4 (for those who dont know/already forgot, it was a prop that wouldve made minors have to have parents informed 48 hours prior to getting an abortion, going against the main selling point of abortion clinics. It got shot down, thank god.)
Very partisan, indeed.
It's tough in my circle of friends and coworkers, because I enjoy having variety. For instance, two of my friends are fastidious liberals, one is a hardcore conservative, my girlfriend and I are... well... the closest thing is Socialist. One of the liberals is a Protestant, the other an atheist. The conservative is a "non-denominational" Christian. Both of my parents are extremely zealous conservatives and Christians. All of my coworkers are a very diverse mix, but mostly liberal and agnostic or baptist.
I said all of that to simply say that I rarely have the ability to have a serious conversation because one of the others will get very passionate and illogical. Because of this, I've learned to live by an arabic proverb: "Never speak of politics in a crowded room." It's saved my ass on many occasions.
It's tough in my circle of friends and coworkers, because I enjoy having variety. For instance, two of my friends are fastidious liberals, one is a hardcore conservative, my girlfriend and I are... well... the closest thing is Socialist. One of the liberals is a Protestant, the other an atheist. The conservative is a "non-denominational" Christian. Both of my parents are extremely zealous conservatives and Christians. All of my coworkers are a very diverse mix, but mostly liberal and agnostic or baptist.
I said all of that to simply say that I rarely have the ability to have a serious conversation because one of the others will get very passionate and illogical. Because of this, I've learned to live by an arabic proverb: "Never speak of politics in a crowded room." It's saved my ass on many occasions.
A "rare gem" is putting the term lightly. I can't remember the last time I saw that sort of thing.shadow_pirate22 said:
I appreciate the snap judgment, but culpable of what? Hostility? Of course, I love a hostile argument and I make no apologies for that. My problem is when religious people refuse to engage on the grounds of hurt feelings or "offense" (as if my offense at their belief system is irrelevant). Get angry by all means, just don't block your ears.Angerwing said:
Never. The last one was about whether being gay was a choice and went something like this:
#1: Okay, if it was a choice, why would they choose to live a life of generally hardship?
#2: CAUSE THEY'RE STUPID!
Me and #3: GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE FOR CALLING OUR RELATIVES STUPID!
Course, then #2 has the gall to cry and the same year I realized I was gay. And God is great, because irony is lul-worthy.
#1: Okay, if it was a choice, why would they choose to live a life of generally hardship?
#2: CAUSE THEY'RE STUPID!
Me and #3: GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE FOR CALLING OUR RELATIVES STUPID!
Course, then #2 has the gall to cry and the same year I realized I was gay. And God is great, because irony is lul-worthy.
I hate that subject. It's the one thing that I can NEVER have a friendly disagreement about, because if a straight guy is pro- gay rights, then the knee-jerk response for far too many people is "Okay, then you must be gay yourself."Nibbles said:
In real life, not too often, but that's mostly because my friends and I have discussed it all, politically at least. I found that mostly we have the same opinions, just coming at them from different sides.
We're all atheists/agnostics (this is the Netherlands, everyone is) so there's not a lot to discuss religiously, though I do sometimes try to get them to be slightly less fundamentalist atheists. I do have one religious friend, and we used to have discussion on a regular basis, but he gets angry quickly so I stopped.
Online I never really have conversations/discussions. I tend to share my opinion and either leave the discussion or come back to point out mistakes to people (real actual facts, not "wrong" opinions).
We're all atheists/agnostics (this is the Netherlands, everyone is) so there's not a lot to discuss religiously, though I do sometimes try to get them to be slightly less fundamentalist atheists. I do have one religious friend, and we used to have discussion on a regular basis, but he gets angry quickly so I stopped.
Online I never really have conversations/discussions. I tend to share my opinion and either leave the discussion or come back to point out mistakes to people (real actual facts, not "wrong" opinions).
You saidHeresy101 said:
Of course I can't make an accurate assessment, seeing as I don't know you, but perhaps you're the cause of hostility? I know more intolerant atheists than I know intolerant Christians. Perhaps when they "refuse to engage on the grounds of hurt feelings or "offense"", they don't want you to attack their religion? From what it sounds like, this isn't two people going into a debate knowing what it's going to be about, then one person backing out randomly due to "offense". Maybe they don't want some random to insult their belief system?Heresy101 said:
Oh, and you can't criticise me for snap-judging you, when you snap-judge others.
So, I guess the consensus so far is that it's possible but rare, and nigh-impossible on the Internet. We've even got a few examples to prove that last point.
Again...I'm not saying I'm not hostile. I'm as hostile as they come, so please show me where I inferred the opposite.Angerwing said:
Tolerance and respect are two different things. I tolerate religion every single day, that doesn't mean I automatically have to respect it, and it doesn't mean it is above criticism. My opinion may be an "attack" from their point of view, but it's a defense from mine. Suddenly I'm "strident" because I'm making a valid criticism of their beliefs, when in any other realm of discourse it wouldn't be seen that way at all.
Also, I refute your claim that there are more intolerant atheists than religious people (I know you said "I know" as a personal experience thing, but you used it as an argument for an objective truth). There are far more closet atheists than closet christians, we see christian functions getting government funding where atheist ones don't, christian lobby groups censoring tv shows, etc. Not to mention gay marriage and abortion, the pillars of religious intolerance in a supposedly secular society. Religious intolerance is rampant, to say otherwise is a ludicrous claim.
I'm not talking about "some random", I'm talking about some of my best friends.
A serious political or religious discussion? No yelling? With proper turn-taking, respectful speech, and calm demeanor? In the late 1990's. I was a kid, and was in a classroom with a strict teacher. Boy that was a long, long time ago...
As soon as I hit middle school, people started to speak their opinions more often.
When I entered high school, people couldn't shut the hell up about their opinions.
When I entered college, people believed their opinions were more valuable and valid than others'.
Now well into college, people have grown quieter and wiser, and we can now have good, thoughtful discussions, but we don't talk about religion or politics anymore.
As soon as I hit middle school, people started to speak their opinions more often.
When I entered high school, people couldn't shut the hell up about their opinions.
When I entered college, people believed their opinions were more valuable and valid than others'.
Now well into college, people have grown quieter and wiser, and we can now have good, thoughtful discussions, but we don't talk about religion or politics anymore.
Today actually. My friend and I have differing views on many things, and find it entertaining to debate. Surprisingly we always reach a moderate conclusion. Woo, go compromise.