"White Knighting" I don't get it

[NihilSinLulz]

I've been doing my best to keep up on various outrages in the video games sphere over the past year. In particular, I've been reading a lot about gender issues and the resulting antagonism that such discussions bring.

One of the many parts of the discussion that I don't understand is when someone dismisses the arguments of another person by saying they are "white knighting". I understand what the term means, I just don't understand why any intelligent person would drop the term in a discussion.

According to KnowYourMeme
?White Knight? (also known as ?Internet White Knight?) is a pejorative term used to describe men who defend women on the Internet with the assumption that they are looking for a romantic reward in return.

In a discussion on gender issues in the gaming community, dismissing someone as merely "white knighting" seems particularly idiotic. I mean assuming you are using the term honestly, a). you would have to know the person's intentions which would be unknowable unless they told you or you had mind powers and, b). wouldn't make any sense as problems usually being discussed are ethereal. Sure usually the discussion come out of stories involving one or more women being harassed but the weight of the discussion is on the harassment not the person.

So how can anyone justify using the term "white knighting" in a discussion?

 

[Asita]

It's a bit of tricky territory, much like any other attempt to ascribe motive. The basic principle however, is thus:


More seriously though: While the idea is thrown out more often than is warranted, there is a great deal of truth in the idea that people will jump into discussions after simply seeing an apparent aggressor and victim without knowing anything else, effectively (albeit likely unconsciously) trying to mirror the classic 'knight in shining armor' riding out to protect the meek and the oppressed. It's simply the way we react, and the news practically makes a point of fostering it with at least the initial feed. The particular variant you're drawing from here is what tvtropes, at least, calls the "Dulcinea Effect", which essentially states out that the aforementioned protective instinct is especially prevalent when the apparent victim is female.

All this said, it's perhaps important to note that while Know Your Meme does have the alleged white knight "looking for a romantic reward in return", common usage doesn't seem to actually rely on that notion. From what I've personally seen the term is more invoked to describe someone trying to be a hero without any real investment, involvement, interest, or insight into the situation. In essence, it's used to describe someone whose desire to defend people has been prioritized over their understanding of what they're defending them from. Leaping before you look, as it were.

 

[Vegosiux]

Oh by uncle Twinkletoes' two-days-worn underpants...

Are you actually asking a question, or are you just saying "I think people who use the term in an internet discussion are stupid and nobody should care about what they say" in a very roundabout way? It's hard to tell sometimes, and that question looks loaded.

But these kinds of debates always bring up obnoxious behavior, adversity, name-calling, holier-than-thou attitudes and the entire retarded clusterfuck of "with us or against us" and "victory at all costs" mentality.

Best I can answer is, in such debates only pay attention to those who seem to be willing to actually discuss stuff, and don't be a jerk yourself.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

So how can anyone justify using the term "white knighting" in a discussion?

Justification implies that the discussion is designed to meet some particular end. For example, if your aim is to make someone angry or undermine their position in front of an audience, then you'd have every ounce of justification required.

Now, if your aim is to construct a solid piece of rhetoric, you run into a severe problem. The phrase is a pejorative and is a perfect example of an ad-hominem argument - a rhetorical fallacy (that is, an invalid argument) in any piece of rhetoric not specifically dealing with someone's character. This is where it gets tricky - an ad hominem is an attack on someone's character - but - character is one of the pillars of rhetoric (ethos, specifically). As a result, properly executed, such an argument, invalid or not, can be extraordinarily effective. Additionally, it is perfectly possible to attack one's character in a way that is completely valid but it is extraordinarily tricky as you have to first demonstrate why this character foible is relevant to the greater argument at hand.

I've personally never seen a case of "white knight" used both as a pejorative and as a valid argument as they usually follow the form "Your opinion on better treatment of women is invalid because you're just doing it to impress girls!". This argument is a clear example of an ad-hominem because the target's character (the supposed "white knight" or motivation isn't the issue being discussed; the issue being discussed is if women should have better treatment in the hypothetical situation. By invoking the ad-hominem, the speaker is attempting to divert the argument to a new topic and thus is a classic red herring.

So, it's easy enough to establish that the term would be difficult to use in formal rhetoric but, then, people rarely require formal rhetoric to be swayed. And since justification is such an arbitrary term suffice it to say that if use of the phrase furthers the ends of your argument, then it was justified.

 

[madwarper]

Ughh... Pronouns. [A] harasses/trolls , [C] tells [A] to STFU.

It seems to me that "white-knighting" comes when assumes (rightly or not) that [C] is telling [A] to STFU because [C] thinks that is in need of defending and/or too weak to do it themself. However, when I've done that, it's because [A] is using a public chat and that's disrupting everyone, not just .

 

[shootthebandit]

Why is this even a thing? if I see a guy, a girl, a child or whoever regardless of age, creed or colour that I feel needs defending then ill do my best to help them out. Obviously with the internet being so anonymous Im not particularly interested in seeking a "romantic reward" because its pointless, to be honest any reward for helping someone out is pointless. Im not going to say I believe in karma but I think if you help people out selflessly people remember it and tell others and when you need help it will be there

Lets step outside of the matrix for a minute. I have a few freinds in real life that try to be very friendly with women and agree with everything they say simply for "a romantic reward" and you can guarantee they look like nothing more than a spineless yes man. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that leads people into the "friendzone" (friendzone is not actually a thing thats why i used inverted commas) and im sure the people who refer to themselves as white knights are also the same people who complain about the "friendzone".

 

[Strain42]

I've been called a White Knight before in some of these types of arguments. I think it's mostly just a way to give an insult to someone to try and make them feel like they're doing something wrong when they call someone on BS in those kinds of discussions.

Like lemme use this as an example. A while back there was this video going around where these people decided to quiz booth babes with "general gaming knowledge questions" to see if they knew their stuff. Now this in and of itself I thought was a stupid idea. I mean you don't ask the girls posing at car shows if they know which variety of Wrist Pin goes into a 53 DeSoto (to demonstrate how little I know about cars I have no idea if a 53 DeSoto even has wrist pins...)

Anyway, I watched the video and admittedly yes, some of the questions were stuff that your average non-gamer may have picked up in their life. Stuff like "Who were the original 3 starter Pokemon?" and "Who is the main character in the Legend of Zelda series?"

But some of the stuff was like "What video game heroine invented the gun stiletto?" and "What popular shooter was based on and influenced by Atlas Shrugged?" For the first question, most of the women were guessing Lara Croft, which I personally think SHOULD have been the answer to one of these "general gaming knowledge questions." I mean hell, even my parents know who Lara Croft is and they haven't played a video game in over 15 years. And as for the second one...hell, I know people who've PLAYED Bioshock who wouldn't be able to answer that.

So anyway, the comments section was full of people badmouthing these women, calling them stupid, saying they had no right being there, and a lot of overall misogynistic comments that I'm not going to get into. It's gamers talking about women on the internet, I'm sure your imagination can fill in a lot of the gaps.

And I pointed out to them that they were being kinda dicks and that these questions weren't really general knowledge. They were things that gamers would know.

I got accused of white knighting, but the truth is I wasn't really trying to defend the women...I just wanted to point out that these guys were being jerks. So basically, if women are involved in a discussion and you just try to point out someone is being an asshole...yeah, you're so called white-knighting, regardless of your motive for your argument.

 

[Muspelheim]

It usually means "I was called out on acting like a bellend, but I will respond by accusing them of being teacher's pets". It seems to have stopped having any of its original meaning after being appalingly misused for so long.

It certainly can have valid meaning, and does sometimes, but it's usually just another way to say "lol invalid".

 

[Flutterguy]

Does not always relate to trying to pick up or make a friend. If someone is being yelled at or focus killed for being a newb I will try to help them or atleast give them a few tips for things that took me a while to figure out. For myself anyways I just don't want to see someones enjoyment ruined by a bully.

That being said some people are outright dicks on games, so I will focus kill them until they leave my server. There is also the odd time where for whatever reason I use a 'cracked red orb' myself.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Why is this even a thing? if I see a guy, a girl, a child or whoever regardless of age, creed or colour that I feel needs defending then ill do my best to help them out. Obviously with the internet being so anonymous Im not particularly interested in seeking a "romantic reward" because its pointless, to be honest any reward for helping someone out is pointless. Im not going to say I believe in karma but I think if you help people out selflessly people remember it and tell others and when you need help it will be there

Lets step outside of the matrix for a minute. I have a few freinds in real life that try to be very friendly with women and agree with everything they say simply for "a romantic reward" and you can guarantee they look like nothing more than a spineless yes man. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that leads people into the "friendzone" (friendzone is not actually a thing thats why i used inverted commas) and im sure the people who refer to themselves as white knights are also the same people who complain about the "friendzone".

Because believe it or not, there are men in this world that will protect a woman just because she's a woman, and even in instances where the help is unwarranted. Somehow theres this idea that a woman is incapable of either taking care of herself or asking for help if she needs it.

 

[Skull Bearer]

A lot on it has already been said, so I'll just give my thoughts on the people who make the accusation of "white-knighting".

To me, when somebody accuses another forumite of "white-knighting", over 99% of the time I automatically translate that in my head to "lol faggt u believe in stuff hurr hurr hurr", because most of the time I witness people accusing others of it, its thinly veiled behavior commonly ascribed to 4chan and pre-pubescent boys than anything remotely constructive. Basically, if I hear somebody accuse somebody else of white-knighting, I'm ignoring them from now on, and rightfully so, since its not involved in any kind of constructive debate, as well as the fact that the term is usually being used by somebody who is needlessly being an aggressor and attacking a person directly rather than their position.

Basically this. It makes a good filtering system.

 

[lacktheknack]

It's not used correctly on the internet, but the general idea is that leaping to someone else's defense in an argument is entirely bad. I think that's silly, but that's the idea.

If a man jumps to a woman's defense, it's "White Knighting". Other instances are called other things, but White Knighting is the most snarked at because it's the most common, which suggests that men are more likely to think of women as being helpless. I'd say it's because when someone directly attacks a woman on the internet, it's often for sexist reasons, and it's really hard not to explode in rage at sexism.

 

[Doclector]

It seems like most assumptions made about people on the internet; These people exist, and they do these things, but not everyone who does these things is doing them for those reasons.

Doesn't make much sense but that's just people for you.

Now, if you excuse me, this thread has brushed past gender issues, so I'm gonna get outta here before the meltdown that always occurs on these kinds of threads around here.

Seriously, we like to think of ourselves as the mature side of the videogaming community, and yet we can never discuss gender without it getting all fucked up.

 

[loa]

From what I've seen "white knighting" has been changed to describe any instance in which someone defends someone else who is in the minority utilizing smarmy misdirections which completely ignore the argument and attack based on tone only aka not adding anything to the discussion and wasting your and everyones fucking time.

 

[Kyrian007]

The accusation of "white knight" really all boils down to (cue up the child crying poster)

"Stop Defending What I Don't Like."

Rather than taking the time to explain why the subject of their ire actually deserves the abuse, they just fling out the "white knight" label rather than admit that they could be in the wrong. Using "white knight" as a pejorative is a self-delusion technique for small minded, hate-filled people.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I don't like appropriating words, phrases or idioms coined on the internet. I find they disturb eloquence and good oratory. When you're thinking and equating everything to a meme, that's just poor imagination. I don't need the world explained in internet shorthand and I don't like language to be shaped by the need to type fast.

Now ordinarily there would be a number of ways you might trump my claim (language and thought shape each other constantly, after all), but English is a second language to me so whenever I use it there's some measure of aesthetical consciousness involved. Hence my reluctance to "devolve" into internet talk.

 

[Belaam]

Personally, whenever i see someone accusing another of "white knighting", I translate it as "The only reason I personally would be polite to women would be as part of a plan to seduce them, but since I've already been a douche, it's too late for me to try that, so I'm grumpy you are doing the same."

I mean, seriously, just try applying the whole concept of complaining about white knighting to other issues. "Hey, you're just supporting to get in good with them and you should instead be working to keep them oppressed."

Even in the rare cases where "white knighting" may exist, I still think it's superior to the alternative. Being a good person for bad reasons is still superior to just being a bad person.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

But it is of course an insult and using it directly on a person constitutes an ad hominem. For instance, if I wanted to say "Jim Sterling is the biggest white knight on The Escapist", I would likely be banned.

Now I don't know if you meant that as a random example or there's some concealed irony in that quote.