Who now thinks that the first matrix movie should've been a stand alone?

[The Lunatic]

The Wachowski brothers went down hill pretty quick after the first Matrix movie.

Revolutions and Reloaded could have been a half decent movie if you fused them both together and cut out all the crap parts. But, I guess hollywood doesn't like working in 2s.

 

[Hawki]

We did have a very civil discussion on the subject. I maintain however that Fantastic Beasts based on the reaction from HP fans and the critics (that I saw) doesn't have "tentpole franchise" legs. Same with DC, although WW wasn't nearly the disaster that SS and the Superman movies were. But even though they make some cash its nothing like the critica and commercial success of the MCU or Star Wars which is what WB (and all other studios) want... ALL the money. Again, Police Academy... there were already what, 6 of those things. Rebooting seems, pretty desperate.

Okay, the DCEU movies can't be called disasters. Certainly not financially at least. Critically speaking, you could only call BvS and SS "disasters."

Also, I'm not sure if reboots can be called a sign of anything per se. Disney has been doing live-action remakes of its animated movies (Jungle Book, Cinderella, etc.), and I don't think Disney is in dire financial straits. As for Fantastic Beasts, even if it isn't the same hit as the Harry Potter films, it did well critically and financially. And this is from someone who actually quite dislikes the film.

 

[Kyrian007]

We did have a very civil discussion on the subject. I maintain however that Fantastic Beasts based on the reaction from HP fans and the critics (that I saw) doesn't have "tentpole franchise" legs. Same with DC, although WW wasn't nearly the disaster that SS and the Superman movies were. But even though they make some cash its nothing like the critica and commercial success of the MCU or Star Wars which is what WB (and all other studios) want... ALL the money. Again, Police Academy... there were already what, 6 of those things. Rebooting seems, pretty desperate.

Okay, the DCEU movies can't be called disasters. Certainly not financially at least. Critically speaking, you could only call BvS and SS "disasters."

Also, I'm not sure if reboots can be called a sign of anything per se. Disney has been doing live-action remakes of its animated movies (Jungle Book, Cinderella, etc.), and I don't think Disney is in dire financial straits. As for Fantastic Beasts, even if it isn't the same hit as the Harry Potter films, it did well critically and financially. And this is from someone who actually quite dislikes the film.

I can call them disasters, whether or not you agree is the other matter. Critically MoS (the critics I saw anyway) all panned MoS very harshly. This was a check from me after the fact because I didn't watch any reviews prior to seeing it... a mistake I did not repeat with the other DC movies as I almost walked out of MoS it was so terrible. And yes, the critics were much more cruel with BvS and SS... and they were terrible movies so it was well deserved. And making money... that's true, but not huge. With a $200 million price tag estimated before promotional budget (which have been known to double the price with some films) was added in... a worldwide gross of $660 million... yes that's acceptable. Good, sure. But this was THE comic book hero, in a movie launching an entire shared movie continuity... anything even halfway good should have done better. BvS did even better, but adding Batman to the formula means it should have done better... even better than it did. It should have hit a billion at some point, it was Batman AND Superman... it should have been huge. Avengers huge. If it had been any good it would have been Avengers huge.

And I never said that reboots were a sign of anything more than just run of the mill greed. I said WB is rebooting POLICE ACADEMY. Maybe there's a huge untapped market for more Police Academy films than I anticipate that WB is counting on. Desperation (as I see it in this case) is more a mark of how far into the well they've dived rather than the fact that they went to the well at all. To be fair there were some pretty funny moments in those movies. But current climate... blm vs blue lives and such... I'm not sure how light hearted comedy can be spun from the Police Academy formula. And that they're willing to look into that at all right now... Of course, they haven't spent anything on it yet either. Could be a complete non-starter too.

 

[Hawki]

Critically MoS (the critics I saw anyway) all panned MoS very harshly.

It has 55% on Rotten Tomatoes. That's not exactly "panning." Course you do mention "the critics I saw," but as far as an overall aggregate goes, I wouldn't consider 55% to be anything less than "average."

This was a check from me after the fact because I didn't watch any reviews prior to seeing it... a mistake I did not repeat with the other DC movies as I almost walked out of MoS it was so terrible. And yes, the critics were much more cruel with BvS and SS... and they were terrible movies so it was well deserved. And making money... that's true, but not huge. With a $200 million price tag estimated before promotional budget (which have been known to double the price with some films) was added in... a worldwide gross of $660 million... yes that's acceptable. Good, sure. But this was THE comic book hero, in a movie launching an entire shared movie continuity... anything even halfway good should have done better. BvS did even better, but adding Batman to the formula means it should have done better... even better than it did. It should have hit a billion at some point, it was Batman AND Superman... it should have been huge. Avengers huge. If it had been any good it would have been Avengers huge.

Look, I'll just take you at your word there, and fine, you get to call them "disasters" if you want, but personally I reserve the term "disaster" to describe box office bombs, least financially. None of the DCEU films have "bombed." And, again, this is coming from someone who placed BvS as (IIRC) the 4th worst film of 2016 on a personal ranking.

 

[dscross]

It was more or less done as one. Check the story.

Eh? What do you mean? The point is that the sequels shouldn't have been made for exactly that reason.

What I mean is, that like many trilogies in movies, this was not made with the idea of a trilogy. It was always sort of a thing in action movies to leave a sequel hook so that if the film did well it could be made. Sometimes it did and the sequel was usually horrendous.

Star Wars for example was never intended as a trilogy. In fact Lucas was so sure the sequel was going to be terrible that he made a point of having as little to do with the film as possible. Including the writing and directing. (and coincidentally it is lauded as the best of the star wars films). Same thing with the matrix.

If that's true about Star Wars (not sure it is?) it's a bit different to the matrix in that everyone loved Star Wars the sequels. Hence, the first film was not tarnished on any way. The matrix trilogy ruined the first film for me because it created plot holes that didn't exist before and impinged on an already self contained story by being not as good or ending in the way most people envisioned. If anything, I think you've made a case that's proved the point of the OP.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

the trilogy works fine as a whole, not sure where the hate comes from

This. I saw them multiple times back when BBC America was playing them all the time, and I absolutely love the entire series.

I question some of the casting choices (Trinity) and the decision to spread out huge chunks of the film in other media (The video game, the Animatrix)

but I can tell you I love the series enough that when I got my new PC the first thing I did was track down a copy of Path Of Neo.

 

[MonsterCrit]

It was more or less done as one. Check the story.

Eh? What do you mean? The point is that the sequels shouldn't have been made for exactly that reason.

What I mean is, that like many trilogies in movies, this was not made with the idea of a trilogy. It was always sort of a thing in action movies to leave a sequel hook so that if the film did well it could be made. Sometimes it did and the sequel was usually horrendous.

Star Wars for example was never intended as a trilogy. In fact Lucas was so sure the sequel was going to be terrible that he made a point of having as little to do with the film as possible. Including the writing and directing. (and coincidentally it is lauded as the best of the star wars films). Same thing with the matrix.

If that's true about Star Wars (not sure it is?) it's a bit different to the matrix in that everyone loved Star Wars the sequels. Hence, the first film was not tarnished on any way. The matrix trilogy ruined the first film for me because it created plot holes that didn't exist before and impinged on an already self contained story by being not as good or ending in the way most people envisioned. If anything, I think you've made a case that's proved the point of the OP.

Return of the Jedi introduced quite a few plotholes. Such as Leia being Luke's sister which kinda makes the love triangle deal with him han and leia feel very creepy. And yeah, they never expected a sequel initially. This is why you can actually notice a tonal shift between New Hope and Empire Strikes back.. Lucas wanted to distance himself from it as much as possibl because the trend was that such sequels almost invariably sucked or generally did not perform well RObocop 2, Ghostbusters 2, gremlins 2, Beastmaster 2, Deathstalker 2, Jaws 2 was criticized for basically just being a rehash of the first film but with even less of a narrative point, Rambo 2 while not a bad film basically did a heel turn on the whole message of the first film. Heck even temple of Doom didn't do so well.

Lucas simply hedged his bets. Surprisingly Epire STrikes Back was very Well Received and so he went shoulder deep in on Return of the Jedi and we got Teddy Bears vs Storm troopers, incest , and a rather lazy retread of the first film. (Let's Build another death star but this time lets make the vent that leads to the only weakness big enough to accomodate large starships.) Then again. we did get Gold Bikini Leia, so, I'll call it balanced.

Then we got the prequel trilogy...

 

[Fox12]

the trilogy works fine as a whole, not sure where the hate comes from

This. I saw them multiple times back when BBC America was playing them all the time, and I absolutely love the entire series.

I question some of the casting choices (Trinity) and the decision to spread out huge chunks of the film in other media (The video game, the Animatrix)

but I can tell you I love the series enough that when I got my new PC the first thing I did was track down a copy of Path Of Neo.

I remember watching it again when I was older, and it was a pretty cohesive trilogy. Very existential, a lot of stuff about free will. Way more going on then in the average Hollywood flick.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

the trilogy works fine as a whole, not sure where the hate comes from

This. I saw them multiple times back when BBC America was playing them all the time, and I absolutely love the entire series.

I question some of the casting choices (Trinity) and the decision to spread out huge chunks of the film in other media (The video game, the Animatrix)

but I can tell you I love the series enough that when I got my new PC the first thing I did was track down a copy of Path Of Neo.

I remember watching it again when I was older, and it was a pretty cohesive trilogy. Very existential, a lot of stuff about free will. Way more going on then in the average Hollywood flick.

I do believe that's part of the problem. There was years inbetween each movie, made people get complacent or some shit. Watch them all back to back or within days of each other when everything stays fresh in your head? It's brilliant.

It helps that Agent Smith is such a great fucking villain, tho. Like motherfuck a reboot, don't even give me a sequel, just give me a standalone Smith movie. Watch that in a fucking heart beat.

 

[Hawki]

Return of the Jedi introduced quite a few plotholes. Such as Leia being Luke's sister which kinda makes the love triangle deal with him han and leia feel very creepy.

That's not really a plothole. It introduces elements of squik, but it doesn't violate any actual piece of lore.

And yeah, they never expected a sequel initially. This is why you can actually notice a tonal shift between New Hope and Empire Strikes back.. Lucas wanted to distance himself from it as much as possibl because the trend was that such sequels almost invariably sucked or generally did not perform well RObocop 2, Ghostbusters 2, gremlins 2, Beastmaster 2, Deathstalker 2, Jaws 2 was criticized for basically just being a rehash of the first film but with even less of a narrative point, Rambo 2 while not a bad film basically did a heel turn on the whole message of the first film. Heck even temple of Doom didn't do so well.

Lucas simply hedged his bets. Surprisingly Epire STrikes Back was very Well Received and so he went shoulder deep in on Return of the Jedi and we got Teddy Bears vs Storm troopers, incest , and a rather lazy retread of the first film. (Let's Build another death star but this time lets make the vent that leads to the only weakness big enough to accomodate large starships.) Then again. we did get Gold Bikini Leia, so, I'll call it balanced.

Then we got the prequel trilogy...

Return of the Jedi isn't really a retread of A New Hope. It has the Death Star, and the destruction of the Death Star, but plot point for plot point, it differs. TFA is far more of a retread (droid ends up on desert planet, droid found by farmboy/scavenger, desert planet is fled in Millennium Falcon, cue corridor shootout, cantina scene occurs, strike on Death Star/Starkiller Base, etc.).

To be honest, I do notice the tone shift in Empire, and it's part of why it's my least favorite film in the original trilogy. But I know I'm in the minority there, so I'll leave it at that.

just give me a standalone Smith movie. Watch that in a fucking heart beat.

Chances are you're joking, but playing it straight, how would that even work? He's an Agent. He can't undergo a character arc, and he's already at 'maximum power level,' unable to be surpassed by anyone bar Neo (or maybe the movie could be him dealing with rogue programs like the twins?).

Anyway, Hugo Weaving's getting on, so, meh.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

I like them all, the first much more than the sequels. They made their mistakes but it's still entertaining.

Reboot because that's Hollywood.exe in action.

 

[Choppaduel]

Revelations was pretty awful.
Reloaded was a fun action movie, but it wasn't the eye opening experience the first one was and the cgi is pretty dated now (on top of the dated "90s cool" look).

Reboot because that's Hollywood.exe in action.

Holy crap Redlin is still around.

They could even call the new one The Matrix: Rebooted. Would fit right in with the naming convention.
Not having the Wachowskis working on it is probably a good thing.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Return of the Jedi introduced quite a few plotholes. Such as Leia being Luke's sister which kinda makes the love triangle deal with him han and leia feel very creepy.

That's not really a plothole. It introduces elements of squik, but it doesn't violate any actual piece of lore.

And yeah, they never expected a sequel initially. This is why you can actually notice a tonal shift between New Hope and Empire Strikes back.. Lucas wanted to distance himself from it as much as possibl because the trend was that such sequels almost invariably sucked or generally did not perform well RObocop 2, Ghostbusters 2, gremlins 2, Beastmaster 2, Deathstalker 2, Jaws 2 was criticized for basically just being a rehash of the first film but with even less of a narrative point, Rambo 2 while not a bad film basically did a heel turn on the whole message of the first film. Heck even temple of Doom didn't do so well.

Lucas simply hedged his bets. Surprisingly Epire STrikes Back was very Well Received and so he went shoulder deep in on Return of the Jedi and we got Teddy Bears vs Storm troopers, incest , and a rather lazy retread of the first film. (Let's Build another death star but this time lets make the vent that leads to the only weakness big enough to accomodate large starships.) Then again. we did get Gold Bikini Leia, so, I'll call it balanced.

Then we got the prequel trilogy...

Return of the Jedi isn't really a retread of A New Hope. It has the Death Star, and the destruction of the Death Star, but plot point for plot point, it differs. TFA is far more of a retread (droid ends up on desert planet, droid found by farmboy/scavenger, desert planet is fled in Millennium Falcon, cue corridor shootout, cantina scene occurs, strike on Death Star/Starkiller Base, etc.).

To be honest, I do notice the tone shift in Empire, and it's part of why it's my least favorite film in the original trilogy. But I know I'm in the minority there, so I'll leave it at that.

just give me a standalone Smith movie. Watch that in a fucking heart beat.

Chances are you're joking, but playing it straight, how would that even work? He's an Agent. He can't undergo a character arc, and he's already at 'maximum power level,' unable to be surpassed by anyone bar Neo (or maybe the movie could be him dealing with rogue programs like the twins?).

Anyway, Hugo Weaving's getting on, so, meh.

I hear what your saying, but I just want more Smith. Maybe do some bullshit where he's ripped through the Multiverse and dropped somewhere else. I just dug the character, the way he moves and speaks.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I thought the first movie, should have been the only movie, 20 minutes in to the second movie.

 

[SoliterDan]

Probably should.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Reboot because that's Hollywood.exe in action.

Holy crap Redlin is still around.

University, life and things keep me off-site but the dust-bunnies can't get rid of me yet.

 

[Don'tDeadOpenInside]

Waddya mean who "NOW" thinks that? I've been thinking that since day one!

This!

I vividly remember the very moment my inner cynic awoke. I was in my teens, I was in the cinema (can't remember what I was going to see) and the trailer for the 2nd film came on. It was trying to be all dramatic with these big "BBBRRRRRRR!!!!" kinda noises and then it zoomed in on the face of Morpheus and he says something super cheesy like (imagine the deep gruff Batman voice) "Get ready!". I remember burying my face in my hands just thinking what a load of shit it was gonna be. And I wasn't wrong, was I? But yeah, that was my critical awakening. That film was made for me. I liked the first one, I was the right age, everything was pointed to my demographic. And I thought it was a crock of shit. That was the moment I started to be more critical of pretty much everything in media. I guess I should thank it for that.

 

[dscross]

Waddya mean who "NOW" thinks that? I've been thinking that since day one!

This!

I vividly remember the very moment my inner cynic awoke. I was in my teens, I was in the cinema (can't remember what I was going to see) and the trailer for the 2nd film came on. It was trying to be all dramatic with these big "BBBRRRRRRR!!!!" kinda noises and then it zoomed in on the face of Morpheus and he says something super cheesy like (imagine the deep gruff Batman voice) "Get ready!". I remember burying my face in my hands just thinking what a load of shit it was gonna be. And I wasn't wrong, was I? But yeah, that was my critical awakening. That film was made for me. I liked the first one, I was the right age, everything was pointed to my demographic. And I thought it was a crock of shit. That was the moment I started to be more critical of pretty much everything in media. I guess I should thank it for that.

Do you think you'll bother watching the reboot or can it never be saved for you?