Why are all the "bad guys" "cooler" nowadays?

Toriver

Lvl 20 Hedgehog Wizard
Jan 25, 2010
1,364
0
0
So I was reading the "Rebels or Empire" thread and someone made a very good point. Cheering for the "bad guy", despite (or maybe because of?) them usually being a giant prick regardless of your views on morality, seems to be the "in" thing in the last couple years. More and more games are allowing players to control the villain or morph the protagonist into a villain, and in so many media nowadays it seems a lot more time and effort has gone into characterization of antagonists than heroes. Why are we empathizing more with and caring so much more about villains than heroes today? It really is starting to get annoying. I can pity the evil mastermind if his mother didn't love him, but I'm not going to suddenly cheer for him to take over/destroy the world for it.
 

SteewpidZombie

New member
Dec 31, 2010
545
0
0
Cause you need a dashing moustache and Monocle to compliment your tophat. Can't let just ANY street urchins try and takeover the world now can we?

(Basically it's just more fun either being the dashingly evil villain, or combating a cool villain...meh either way I always wish for posh villains with tophats to appear in my games...keeps things civil while battling to the death)
 

TheIronRuler

New member
Mar 18, 2011
4,283
0
0
Toriver said:
So I was reading the "Rebels or Empire" thread and someone made a very good point. Cheering for the "bad guy", despite (or maybe because of?) them usually being a giant prick regardless of your views on morality, seems to be the "in" thing in the last couple years. More and more games are allowing players to control the villain or morph the protagonist into a villain, and in so many media nowadays it seems a lot more time and effort has gone into characterization of antagonists than heroes. Why are we empathizing more with and caring so much more about villains than heroes today? It really is starting to get annoying. I can pity the evil mastermind if his mother didn't love him, but I'm not going to suddenly cheer for him to take over/destroy the world for it.
You're missing the point.
The transformation here is that The main protagonist is THE PLAYER, not a character, therefore he must have a blank slate (Most games do this) in terms of morality and personality.
On the other hand the other character that keeps showing up throught the game that isn't the protagonist is the main antagonist, and HE must be a full three dimensional character that we learn to love and then kill. Brutally. With a chainsaw. In front of his grandmother.
You see where I'm going with this?
 

NightHawk21

New member
Dec 8, 2010
1,273
0
0
TheIronRuler said:
Toriver said:
So I was reading the "Rebels or Empire" thread and someone made a very good point. Cheering for the "bad guy", despite (or maybe because of?) them usually being a giant prick regardless of your views on morality, seems to be the "in" thing in the last couple years. More and more games are allowing players to control the villain or morph the protagonist into a villain, and in so many media nowadays it seems a lot more time and effort has gone into characterization of antagonists than heroes. Why are we empathizing more with and caring so much more about villains than heroes today? It really is starting to get annoying. I can pity the evil mastermind if his mother didn't love him, but I'm not going to suddenly cheer for him to take over/destroy the world for it.
You're missing the point.
The transformation here is that The main protagonist is THE PLAYER, not a character, therefore he must have a blank slate (Most games do this) in terms of morality and personality.
On the other hand the other character that keeps showing up throught the game that isn't the protagonist is the main antagonist, and HE must be a full three dimensional character that we learn to love and then kill. Brutally. With a chainsaw. In front of his grandmother.
You see where I'm going with this?
Basically correct. A lot of games not are choosing simpler characters for you to play so that you may almost "implant" yourself onto them.

Also, why wouldn't you like the bad guy. With the exception of the whole evil thing, bad guys usually display and have personalities that would be considered signs of "attractiveness" and power.
 

TheIronRuler

New member
Mar 18, 2011
4,283
0
0
NightHawk21 said:
Basically correct. A lot of games not are choosing simpler characters for you to play so that you may almost "implant" yourself onto them.

Also, why wouldn't you like the bad guy. With the exception of the whole evil thing, bad guys usually display and have personalities that would be considered signs of "attractiveness" and power.
Yes.
Neatly Constructed Evil People are actually nice people once you get past the whole 'Protagonist killed my village' or 'I want to make a new race of humans' usually accompanied with a tad of 'WORLD DOMINATION!' and always, always an evil laugh.
 

Harry Mason

New member
Mar 7, 2011
617
0
0
I think it's because, culturally, a lot of people are kind of tired of the "Goodguy/Badguy" dichotomy. There has been a lot of effort to create segregation between good and ill in a modern moral code that exists largely in gray area. The "hero" of any given story might commit acts of evil in the eyes of some, such as killing henchmen and making love to the damsel in distress, and our idea of what a "just" act is has changed enormously over the years, where classical hero figures have not.

The very idea of a "good" guy has begun to seem so disingenuous within our modern moral code, that I believe people are starting to approach Good Vs. Evil in one of two ways: a cartoony, linear division (see: inFamous), and worship of the "Anti-Hero" (the hero who is earnest about their vile actions).

Basically, people are more interested in villains these days because "heroes" are either fake and flat, or turning into villains themselves. Society isn't as sure of what "good" is as it used to be.
 

GrizzlerBorno

New member
Sep 2, 2010
2,295
0
0
Let me counter your question about "why the bad guys are always more interesting", with another question: How do you MAKE the good guys interesting?

Seriously, good guys are just....bland. There are exceptions, but 8 times out of 10, the only thing the Good guys want is everything to just....stay the way it is. They have no goals, no plan. Just loafty morals based around protecting the "status quo", which apparently is fucking sacro-sanct.

So what do the good guys do? They send a single "hero" out to do their dirty work, while they (presumably) sit back at Goody-McTooshoos-ville, with their fingers in their ears chanting "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA".

And just to clarify... that's Fucking BORING!
 

Vankraken

New member
Mar 30, 2010
222
0
0
I think this is a mix between two different subjects of...
1. Games let you play the good or bad guy (or hopefully have a deeper range of morally gray options) so the main character is not defined by the label of the hero but instead the label is created through gameplay.
2. Games often times have you playing for a side that is not 100% innocent and while you are forced to play for that side, you also see their flaws and maybe even why the enemy is your enemy.

On subject #1 that is the current trend in games (western games) as the player wants the freedom to make choices and direct the flow of the game. Games like fallout give the player options in a world that isn't good vs evil but instead multiple sides of gray. Some games do it poorly with only good or evil choices *cough* fable *cough*. In general freedom can result in a deeper richness of gameplay and story. The important relationship that this has with the real world is that their is no "Good" or "Evil" but different shades of gray and those shades are heavily based on perspective. We all have different views of the world and it is rewarding to express our views and beliefs in the games we play (without shouting it over voice chat of modern warfare or trade chat in WoW)

On subject #2 which is more off topic but i want to say it anyway, we have the (what im calling) Killzone effect. In Killzone you play as the ISA against the Helghast who are suppose to be the bad guys with the German/Nazi design theme and yet many people actually like the Helghast more than the ISA (for reasons outside Rico being annoying as hell and immune to our bullets). Story wise the ISA in the past screwed over the Helghast so in all reality the ISA are the "bad guys" while the Helghast are seeking revenge and taking what is in all fairness theirs. Design wise the Helghast look awesome while the ISA are rather bland and somewhat annoying (again no thanks to Rico). Lastly some people just like the concept of seeing the war from both sides of the battlefield and are interested in seeing the "other guys" perspective.

End result is people like choices and different perspective (I beat new vegas helping the NCR in one game so the next game I will side the Legion to see whats different). Some people like to play the morally righteous side while others like the chance to play the bad guys. Sometimes people see things as being not black or white and like the opportunity to play from the so called "bad guys" but really they see it as just being on a different team (im sure many people will agree in star wars the empire in the original movies was evil but also think the idea of playing as a Storm Trooper would be cool).
 

lowkey_jotunn

New member
Feb 23, 2011
223
0
0
Some games just do it for cheap replay value. 90% the same game, 10% good vs evil choices and 2 different cutscene endings. Blammo, you just doubled the time people can spend playing your game. But if the "bad" choice feels well, bad... people might not take those options and thus eliminate the whole point.
 

ThePuzzldPirate

New member
Oct 4, 2009
495
0
0
Villains are much easier to relate too as they fell more human. I will try to explain as well as I can but am quite tired so sorry for the broken english.

If you go with simple good vs evil, when you look at the good guy, he sort of has to fill a role. He needs to have good characteristics that a reader can look up too or he is no different the villain he has to defeat. That is where the problems starts however as usually the good guy is only doing it because it is the right thing to do often sacrificing himself for the others. Again, it is traits that you can look up too but makes it very hard to connect which leaves the good guy bland or samey(as everyone else it stuck with it too.)

The bad guy however is a whole different story, other than the fact they are easier to write(which I will get too), they are much more interesting. Usually it is bad guy that is doing something interesting in the story laying out plot twist or giving scenes meaning. They drive the plot forward or else there wouldn't be conflict, so you continue to follow there actions instead of the hero as you know they just have to save the day.

Another reason is we hope the villain wins, why? Somehow, the tension has switched from the hero succeeding to the villain as it is less likely to happen. We see them struggle, usually more often and harder than the hero does. In our hearts, we want to see that hard-work to be awarded no matter how vile it is.

My last point comes to depth, while white is white, black is usually more of a grey. Villains are flawed people and we can see these flaws in them and ourselves which allows us to connect to them. They are also easier to write for that reason as we have more experience in grey. By just by asking one question "Why does he do what he does?" or "Why does he think that?", you have given more depth to said villain than the hero could muster up in the whole story.

I hope I wasn't to hard to follow, I will try to explain better when I have some sleep on me.
 

elbrandino

New member
Dec 8, 2010
267
0
0
I don't really think bad guys are any "cooler" now than they used to be. But ever since I was little I always found villains far more interesting anyway.
 

Halceon

New member
Jan 31, 2009
820
0
0
Well, no. They aren't. It's actually quite hard for me to find a compelling villain. Most of them are just plain irrational and self-defeating. Destroy the world? Uh-huh, and what, praytell, do YOU get out of it? You know, with being dead like everyone.
 

dyre

New member
Mar 30, 2011
2,178
0
0
Halceon said:
Well, no. They aren't. It's actually quite hard for me to find a compelling villain. Most of them are just plain irrational and self-defeating. Destroy the world? Uh-huh, and what, praytell, do YOU get out of it? You know, with being dead like everyone.
It's because people are selfish and evil and they killed the villain's family, so he must in turn destroy the whole world!
 

Nouw

New member
Mar 18, 2009
15,615
0
0
TV Tropes explains this. It's been happening for a long time really.
 

Traskelion

New member
Apr 1, 2009
44
0
0
Because cool heroes are SO 1970's! Next fad: Cool comic-relief sidekicks! Who doesn't want to see a badass bard?!
 

Aurgelmir

WAAAAGH!
Nov 11, 2009
1,566
0
0
Toriver said:
So I was reading the "Rebels or Empire" thread and someone made a very good point. Cheering for the "bad guy", despite (or maybe because of?) them usually being a giant prick regardless of your views on morality, seems to be the "in" thing in the last couple years. More and more games are allowing players to control the villain or morph the protagonist into a villain, and in so many media nowadays it seems a lot more time and effort has gone into characterization of antagonists than heroes. Why are we empathizing more with and caring so much more about villains than heroes today? It really is starting to get annoying. I can pity the evil mastermind if his mother didn't love him, but I'm not going to suddenly cheer for him to take over/destroy the world for it.
I think it is a teenager thing. The "bad guy" is generally the guy that does whatever he wants without taking shit from anybody. The bad guy lives by his own rules. The "bad guy" lives the life any teenager wants to live, no rules, no authority.

This is also why Wolverine, Punisher and Deadpool are so damn popular. They are "bad guys" on the side of good.
 

Wintermoot

New member
Aug 20, 2009
6,563
0
0
because sometimes you sympathize with the goals of the villain.
For example in the MSG universe I find myself more agreeing with Zeon then the Federation.
 

Lesd3vil

New member
Oct 11, 2010
99
0
0
When villains want to destroy the world it's usually because they don't want to live in it, but they can't stand the idea of anyone else being alive without them... Egomania writ large.

Seriously though, for a start heroes lately are flat and poorly characterised because people demand to be allowed to influence the story in 'their own way' - not realising that for all the supposed 'complexity' and 'richness' of the goodvsbad or saintly/glib/arsehole choice systems, they are still following a script laid down by someone else; all they're doing by demanding to be able to self-insert themselves into the game is severely limiting the writer's ability to characterise the protagonist.

In other media, we're always a helpless audience; the action moves ahead on rails and we can only watch as characters die, fall in love, fail or succeed in achieving their dreams etc. We see everything but can change nothing, which is an effective way of creating heavy tension (and thereby cathartis when the tension is resolved). In games we're actually a big part of moving the plot or the action forward, but the problem is that almost all games are incredibly linear: there's no real difference to the story if you're good or evil except the ending cutscene, and if you die between one plot point or the next you're prompted with 'You fail. Do it again.'

Up until lately, games have been pretty much just interactive movies: worlds designed by developers in which we can shoot/run/jump/stab/(insert appropriate verb here) to our hearts' content between cutscenes... What's happening now is that developers are trying to realise a different potential in the media of gaming; a potential to let the player experience a world for themselves, to inflict and be inflicted upon, to have their point of view and morality influenced by experiences they could never have otherwise had. The problem is that developers' ability to do this is ALWAYS going to be severely limited because to create a fluid, changing, reactional world you'd need to make EVERY NPC able to react to every possible action on the player's part, which would mean making them self-aware and intelligent... How would one do that?

On a lighter note, remember that in these types of games, the hero is YOU... Perhaps the hero isn't cool because you're not cool :p
 

Grell Sutcliff

New member
May 25, 2011
147
0
0
I think bad guys that are pricks no matter what you believe in deserve what they get when they die but as for why other villains are cool it's because they are far more powerful than the heroes and they make more sense if we had X-ray vision we'd just stare at each other naked and if i had super strength and bullet proof skin I know I'd be robbing some banks right now and yes living above the law is simply why more fun than following the rules placed by people that don't even know what's best for society
 

Bravo 21

New member
May 11, 2010
745
0
0
quite simply because evil people are either more badass, or have more swagger than their good counterparts. However, sometimes it just comes down to point of view, for those of you interested in a more imperial point of view, listen to the podcast "A different point of view" It is available on the itunes store for free, but im not sure who made it, because my Itunes store is down right now.