Why are JRPGs so much longer than WRPGs?

[endtherapture]

I hate the whole "childish" or "anime" graphics vs. realistic debate that always seem to go on. People really need to open their minds and not instantly judge.

I can go back to my gamecube and play Baten Kaitos, or Tales of Symphonia, or Wind Waker, and still think they look beautiful, they still hold up graphically today; The same cannot be said for any "realistic" game of the time.

The graphics and art style lend themselves to better performing games, and help to further the universe they are trying to create. JRPGs are rarely (if ever) set on earth, or even an earth like planet. They have entire wacky universes with things that just wouldn't be possible in an earth like world; I mean.. where is fallout set? Earth, post apocolyptically, but that is by design. Where is Skyrim set? Might as well be earth sometime in the past. Where is the Witcher set? might as well be earth. Where is Fable set? might as well be earth with magic.

Disclaimer: I am not by any means saying WRPGs are bad, I tend to enjoy JRPGs more because I like story driven games, but that isn't to say I haven't had my fair share of fun in WRPGs, I like a majority of them (besides Skyrim which I hated).

It's not even a realism issue, it's blatant ignorance. It's the ignorance spurned from people seeing animation and instantly thinking of it as childish in the US.


Japanese games lack this problem, they don't have any connotation like that. A game with anime graphics is just a game with anime graphics, it's not "cartoony" or "childish" any more so than a game like the Witcher. It's just an art style which people like and can have any kind of themes you wanna put in your game.

Yep it's so ignorant. Anime is just an art style and it can be used in a number of ways and encompass different tones. There's the more realistic stuff like Final Fantasy vs more cel shaded stuff like Wind Waker and watercolour style like Valkaryia Chronicles. I personally think the range of expressions you can get with an exaggerated anime character in a game is far superior to current attempts to realistically model facial expressions in Western games.

 

[Nanondorf]

I'd have to say that it really depends on the games themselves rather than the dev being jap-western. RPGs generally have at least 25-30 hours of gameplay for me , but some games, having too many extra objectives but still mantaining the fun factor can keep me going for double that time and then some (Skyrim,Xenoblade).
I noticed that most not-so subtle differences between them are found in gameplay, where WRPGs tend to prefer real-time combat instead of turn-based. As far as story progression goes, most JRPGs are linear to a fault, but still encourage some backtracking, while WRPGs let you run wild or complete objectives in any order.
Also is it just me, or are JRPG devs high on drugs when they write their story? Most of those plots are completely bonkers, and maybe that's what I like so much about them.

 

[infohippie]

This thread has shown me I really need to start playing JRPGS. Now, if only 90% of them weren't exclusive to consoles or portables...

It's a good thing emulators exist eh? I use emulators to play almost all my older console games these days that don't have a PC version.

I am inexperienced with emulators - would that mean I still would have to use a controller to play them? 'Cause that shit won't fly. The main reason I don't console is because I hate using controllers at all.

No, in fact you can set up all emulators to work with either keyboard and mouse or controllers pretty easily as long as the game doesn't require motion controls. If it does use motion controls it's a pain in the ass to get it to work, so I don't play any that require it. Also, I should mention emulators are usually at least a console generation behind, so don't expect to be playing PS3 or 360 games or anything like that for a while.

For the record, I greatly prefer using controllers, simply because it's easier and more comfortable.

This thread has shown me I really need to start playing JRPGS. Now, if only 90% of them weren't exclusive to consoles or portables...

It's a good thing emulators exist eh? I use emulators to play almost all my older console games these days that don't have a PC version.

I am inexperienced with emulators - would that mean I still would have to use a controller to play them? 'Cause that shit won't fly. The main reason I don't console is because I hate using controllers at all.

Actually, I believe that in most cases it's actually harder to use a controller with most emulators, and even then I think you have to use a program like Joy2Key.

Well, thank you. I might have to start looking into emulation then, and give some JRPGs a try. I have heard good things about Bravely Default, for example.

 

[Greg White]

My point is that TES games strive through dicking around and user generated content and the vast world to put that into.

I agree and that's why I say that this dicking around is the real meat of the game.

I wouldn't call all the guild quests dicking around per se, it's just that most of what's out there isn't directly related to the 'main story.' Hell, some of the guild quests are better than the main quest.

The user generated stuff is just a nice addition.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Well, thank you. I might have to start looking into emulation then, and give some JRPGs a try. I have heard good things about Bravely Default, for example.

Bravely Default is VERY good, even if the second half is a bit lacking. Sadly it's pretty unlikely you'll be able to find an emulator out there capable of playing it for a good while and it would require special equipment to rip the rom from the cartridge anyway, at least if you wanted to get it legally. You should probably get the new 3DS when it comes out if you don't already have the old one.

Actually, I believe that in most cases it's actually harder to use a controller with most emulators, and even then I think you have to use a program like Joy2Key.

All the emulators I've ever used have no problem with controllers, simply go into the emulator's menu and set it up. I use the Xbox 360 controller for windows with mine and it works perfectly.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I hate the whole "childish" or "anime" graphics vs. realistic debate that always seem to go on. People really need to open their minds and not instantly judge.

I can go back to my gamecube and play Baten Kaitos, or Tales of Symphonia, or Wind Waker, and still think they look beautiful, they still hold up graphically today; The same cannot be said for any "realistic" game of the time.

The graphics and art style lend themselves to better performing games, and help to further the universe they are trying to create. JRPGs are rarely (if ever) set on earth, or even an earth like planet. They have entire wacky universes with things that just wouldn't be possible in an earth like world; I mean.. where is fallout set? Earth, post apocolyptically, but that is by design. Where is Skyrim set? Might as well be earth sometime in the past. Where is the Witcher set? might as well be earth. Where is Fable set? might as well be earth with magic.

Disclaimer: I am not by any means saying WRPGs are bad, I tend to enjoy JRPGs more because I like story driven games, but that isn't to say I haven't had my fair share of fun in WRPGs, I like a majority of them (besides Skyrim which I hated).

It's not even a realism issue, it's blatant ignorance. It's the ignorance spurned from people seeing animation and instantly thinking of it as childish in the US.


Japanese games lack this problem, they don't have any connotation like that. A game with anime graphics is just a game with anime graphics, it's not "cartoony" or "childish" any more so than a game like the Witcher. It's just an art style which people like and can have any kind of themes you wanna put in your game.

Yep it's so ignorant. Anime is just an art style and it can be used in a number of ways and encompass different tones. There's the more realistic stuff like Final Fantasy vs more cel shaded stuff like Wind Waker and watercolour style like Valkaryia Chronicles. I personally think the range of expressions you can get with an exaggerated anime character in a game is far superior to current attempts to realistically model facial expressions in Western games.

That's because of a core difference in philosophy. In Japanese games, the ideal aimed at with a game is that of a living playable Anime. Their philosophy is that "fantasy/2D>reality/3D" and thus we get the games that we do. Western games on the other hand are bent on simulating reality really well and thus forgo the larger realm of possibilities made available to game-makers out of the virtue of the medium.


Frankly, it's easier to sell a game when you don't ask for suspension of disbelief. It's easier to sell a game about a gangster than about a magic ninja traitor, even though the two stories will share a lot and one who likes one will like the other. People simply won't give the magic ninja a chance cause the premise is "too silly" for them to take seriously. Unless we solve this issue things won't change and making a million realistic gangster games will not help at all in this area.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

snip

See, that's not the problem, different tastes and all that, the problem is you were saying one genre is better quality than the other and that JRPGs just go for quantity, when you get something like Skyrim being hailed as the best thing since sliced bread and it's a buggy mess saved only by mods.

A question, have you even played Tales of Zestiria, to call it childish or girly? Or are you judging a book by its cover?

Well, I dont see any way he COULD play it, considering that the game isn't even out yet.

Well, didn't know that, and that just proves it's just judging a book by its cover, which isn't something to be proud of.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

snip

See, that's not the problem, different tastes and all that, the problem is you were saying one genre is better quality than the other and that JRPGs just go for quantity, when you get something like Skyrim being hailed as the best thing since sliced bread and it's a buggy mess saved only by mods.

A question, have you even played Tales of Zestiria, to call it childish or girly? Or are you judging a book by its cover?

Well, I dont see any way he COULD play it, considering that the game isn't even out yet.

Well, didn't know that, and that just proves it's just judging a book by its cover, which isn't something to be proud of.

That'd be the case if this game was a new IP. This is a main tales game, a series that has been going for like 20 years and has consistent themes. No, his error is far more egregious since the accusations he leverages are flatly untrue. He didn't just judge a book by its cover, he judged a book by the genre. Like, he looked at the bookshelf with the label "anime" and aimlessly decreed all the books in there to be childish girly and whatever else. Regardless of their varied content. It's ultimate level ignorance, basically.

 

[Caostotale]

What? I'm under an impression that you spent last five years under a rock when it comes to RPGs and games in general if you call Geralt that.

I actually don't know shit about either of the games that were pictured in that post, and my knowing the details of either game's characters is completely beside the point. I was reacting to the poster's comically-'Western' pandering to an ever-assumed group of bro-gamers who need all of their games to be 'adult', 'mature', 'bad-ass' etc... as if such stylistic choices make any fucking difference in the grand scheme of things.

For what it's worth, for years now, the most 'mature' and 'adult' gamers I've personally known (based on how old they are, how stable their lives are, whether they have kids, how much money they put into their gaming habits, etc...) are generally people I've met in the Japanese shmup/arcade-game crowd, a scene where tons of the games have bright and flashy colors, silly teenaged anime characters, upbeat dance music, etc... yet nobody in that group of gamers ever seems to give a flying fuck about how 'childish' some of the games look, keeping their criticisms aimed at things like the games' technical characteristics, scoring systems, levels of challenge, etc...

 

[RealRT]

What? I'm under an impression that you spent last five years under a rock when it comes to RPGs and games in general if you call Geralt that.

I actually don't know shit about either of the games that were pictured in that post, and my knowing the details of either game's characters is completely beside the point. I was reacting to the poster's comically-'Western' pandering to an ever-assumed group of bro-gamers who need all of their games to be 'adult', 'mature', 'bad-ass' etc... as if such stylistic choices make any fucking difference in the grand scheme of things.

For what it's worth, for years now, the most 'mature' and 'adult' gamers I've personally known (based on how old they are, how stable their lives are, whether they have kids, how much money they put into their gaming habits, etc...) are generally people I've met in the Japanese shmup/arcade-game crowd, a scene where tons of the games have bright and flashy colors, silly teenaged anime characters, upbeat dance music, etc... yet nobody in that group of gamers ever seems to give a flying fuck about how 'childish' some of the games look, keeping their criticisms aimed at things like the games' technical characteristics, scoring systems, levels of challenge, etc...

The Witcher series is well-known for being mature not only in style, but in storytelling, with morally grey choices and dilemmas made in a bleak world filled with all kinds of -isms and Game of Thrones-like political intrigue. Based off the book series by Anrzej Sapkowski. So, actually The Witcher is a good example of a WRPG. Now that other game looks generic.

 

[kilenem]

I think it depends on what games you played. Pokemon is my favorite RPG and you can beat the Main campaign in about 24 hours. Although post game carries depending on which version and if you try to catch them all. My favorite Western RPG, X-men legends, was in the 40's. ASlso this is Not counting how many times I restarted because I hit a dead end.

 

[Malpraxis]

Short answer: Turn based combat and grinding, most of the time.

 

[Caostotale]

The Witcher series is well-known for being mature not only in style, but in storytelling, with morally grey choices and dilemmas made in a bleak world filled with all kinds of -isms and Game of Thrones-like political intrigue. Based off the book series by Anrzej Sapkowski. So, actually The Witcher is a good example of a WRPG. Now that other game looks generic.

Do you actually know anything about the Tales game or are you just going to base an argument on an unbalanced comparison weighing all this stuff you already know about The Witcher series against a piece of promotional art? Based solely on this promotional art, both games look fairly 'generic' with respect to their own genres. Nothing's yet been said about either game's battle mechanics, leveling system, difficulty, etc...

If it wasn't clear above, I really don't give a crap how 'bleak' or 'Game-of-Thrones-like' a RPG is in tone. If anything, that vibe's going to drive me away, as I generally prefer games to present a neutral or uplifting alternative to the endless stream of cynical gloom-and-doom that's taken over books, comics, movies, and television (sometimes I feel like Westerners won't be happy until all of our media is as miserable, negative, and preoccupied with death and sadness as the horrible stories we constantly hear about in the news).

Based on everything I've read over the years, I'm sure the Witcher games are plenty awesome as games. The argument here is about leveling pat and superficial judgments towards this or that game based on weak cultural assumptions and attitudes.

 

[AuronFtw]

TES games are... unique.

Less so than you'd think. Long WRPGs stretch back decades; Planescape Torment and Baldur's Gate 1/2 were similarly massive RPG worlds with easily a hundred hours of content. A lot of it, just like in TES and Fallout, was optional, and some (based on choices you make) could only be experienced in different playthroughs, but the feel of those huge world RPGs is just the most recent in a long line of PC RPGs.

Their actual content is short, you could complete Skyrims main story in less than one hour if you plan out properly. I can say that from my 100h+ in it I'd consider only 30 or so the games stories and the rest is either me dicking around with shit thats there

Yeah, as pointed out earlier, I think this is one of the "main" differences. Early JRPGs had very little, if any, side content. Their story was the core of the game, and once that was done, the game was done. To lengthen gameplay, they introduced some truly horrendous grind or random battles to artificially delay you. FF8 was one of my favorite JRPGs in that regard; fairly early on you could turn battles off and avoid them the entire rest of the game, and since bosses scaled by level (and were generally easier if you were lower level) it was possible to just cruise through that game with very few artificial delays. I'd mention bravely default as a good example too, since that also has a switch to turn random battles down or off, but that ALSO has literally the most horrendous example of artificial gameplay lengthening I've *EVER SEEN* so fuck that game.

WRPGs have always favored the world-building, and letting you explore that world every step of the way is a big part of that. Huge maps with dozens (if not hundreds) of locations, each with many quests and NPCs to interact with, definitely build a sense of "epic" proportions in a game. In most JRPGs, there are only enough towns to support the story; rarely any far-off locations that are completely optional and actually "neat" to experience (Wutai in FF7 is a notable exception). If they exist, often they just have a merchant with rare goods or a spell trainer or some shit to reward you for finding it, but the location itself is bland.

or me dicking around with mods. And those same mods are the bread and butter of TES PC games.

Fixed that for you! From simple reskins to spawning items or ammo to teleporting NPCs around the world to adding brand new content, mods have been a mainstay in any hugely popular PC game, even as far back as the legendary Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. There's even a modpack that combines BG1 and 2 into a "single game" run on BG2's engine, and offers a ton of tweaks and new content as well. And yeah... mod content in TES/FO can completely change the game, from simple quality of life mods like Loadout to entire reskins of zones or custom weapons.

*sniff* i love mods :3

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I think it's due to WRPGs being made with multiple playthroughs in mind with a shorter but more immediately satisfiying gameplay. Where as JRPGs tend to be more character driven stories that takes the playing on an epiclly adventure that ends with a great feeling bang at the end, thus only requiring one playthrough to get 100% exploration and collection in.

There are exceptions on both sides of course, the "Tales of" JRPG franchise always has New Game+ with unlockables that require at least one playthrough to access. And on the WRPG side we have The Witcher, a character driven game that's pretty damn long and only warrants another playthrough to see different story aspects due to the varying choices available.


Just seems like different philosophies on how to make games.

 

[Pikey Mikey]

Because Tales of Graces is full of tedious, annoying puzzles...And petrification-enemies that broke my friend's spirit after two tries xD (He's the JRPG fan and the one who actually owns the game)
... Tales of Graces sucks! the only two good things (which is only one because the other one is connected to her)
Pascal! I love her =P and Ruby Inferno, her level 3 Ultimate/Arte/whatever-it's-called. She summons a giant lava-dragon spirit and punches the shit out of the enemies, Then kick-piledrives them into the ground. THAT is AWESOME.

Pity the rest of the game is shit and stupid and incredulous and rancid and other mildly-insulting words that I can come up with. (Malik's ok too. The rest of the characters are just shite, and their reasoning is shite, and the plot is shite and very much is shite (I'm gonna stop now))

Disclaimer: If you like Tales of Graces or the other Tales games, you are free to do that. I'm just ranting because I don't like Graces and I have a habit of creating walls of text whenever I discuss/talk/write about something I really like/love or something I hate/can pick out flaws with...Repeatedly. =P
(I can be a very bitter individual if I get going. But I can also be a very positive one (don't ask me about things in Baldur's Gate if you don't have an hour to spare)

 

[Pikey Mikey]

If it wasn't clear above, I really don't give a crap how 'bleak' or 'Game-of-Thrones-like' a RPG is in tone.

Is Game-of-Thrones-like a thing? That people use often?
I will never understand people's obsession with that series =/

Don't get me wrong. I like it, I think it's good, but I don't think it's "the best show in the world ever!!!(!!!)" But I only watch the show, and I've heard that it leaves out parts from the books and/or doesn't follow the books completely etc.

 

[DOOM GUY]

I don't know if that's necessarily 100% true, though yeah, JRPGs tend to be on the longer side.

I've never been into WRPGs much, but I know a lot of the length in those comes from exploration and side quests, which means if you want to just power through the game, you lose out on a bunch of the content.

 

[Therumancer]

JRPGs just seem like huge, long games taking up many hours of your time. WRPGs are also pretty long but I feel like due to the increased emphasis on choice, you get less content in a single linear playthrough, they seem a lot shorter.

But a standard JRPG like FF or Valkaryia Chronicles will easily stretch past the 50 hour mark, but most WRPGs are around the 20-30 hour mark but you might get the odd outlier (50 for Dragon Age Origins, about 90 for Skyrim)

Why is this, and why do JRPGs have tons of cinematics, whilst WRPGs find it more difficuly to incorporate as many cinematics without cutting down on game length?

It depends on what your talking about specifically.

As a very general rule JRPGs use fairly crappy technology which a lot of people make fun of, not to mention that the highly stylized "anime" artwork tends to result in a lot less space being used. This generally means they can create a lot more game for a lot less than WRPGs which tend to spend more time on elaborate character models, and cutting edge graphics and technology. Basically with western games it's always "AAA" where your typical JRPG might be a "C" game
if it's lucky. With a WRPG for example you might say walk up to a full character model and have a conversation where a big deal is made about facial expressions, voice acting, etc... all uncanny valley aspects aside. In a JRPG though the conversations might take place in 2D using text, with each character involved having a portrait appear on the side of the screen as they talk, with perhaps a few different "mood" portraits showing exaggerated moods in a cartoony style being swapped in and out to empathize specific things.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying JRPGs are bad (played more than a few of them) it's just that you have to seriously look at the quality compared to a lot of the big western RPGs like "Origins". You might get a lot more gameplay out of a NIS or Atlus title than say a Bioware title but the quality that's there is going to be much lower and has to be taken on it's own merits.

Of course exceptions exist, such as some of the "Final Fantasy" games which have in their hey day included cutting edge technology and graphics for their time, and could still clock in at 100 hours or more. Of course with the way the industry has changed I believe Squeenix mentioned it probably couldn't afford to create a game the size and depth of say "Final Fantasy VII" with current tech which is why there hasn't been a remake despite massive demand for one. The more recent "Final Fantasy" titles got away with size and decent tech by being pretty linear, to the point of almost being a game where you just kept walking forward, even the battle system was something that didn't really have much to it, you largely set the game to play itself. That's what they got when they tried to do both without compromise and it's one of the bigger train wrecks in gaming. As a general rule WRPGs lean towards one pole JRPGs lean towards the other, they both have their respective charm. With time we will hopefully eventually see high quality RPGs that are extremely long again... but that will involved a lot of changes which will be slow to come. Among other things I don't think western game companies want to make many huge games because they want people to finish and be wanting more games by the time their next ones are done... a content audience that is still exploring old games isn't a profitable one. Bethesda is one of the few hold outs on this (I mean the time you can put into some of their games is crazy) but they also release very infrequently. Right now we don't have either a new "Fallout" or "Elder Scrolls" anywhere near release, maybe towards the tail end of next year if we're lucky.

 

[JCAll]

You might have not played a Tales game but you're confusing colors, brightness and positivity with childlike traits. No, these are just that, happy adventures. There's a whole lot of darkness too but it's not all-consuming. There's actual variety. There's nuance. There's actual characters who like to have fun and enjoy themselves and live their life. Not just a kill/destroy quest with no meaning.

Finally, if you don't think there's anything "epic" in a Tales game, you really really have not played any of them for 3 minutes. Hell, just the intro animation is epic enough!

You can't blame him for thinking Tales is cute and childish. It WANTS you to think it's cute and childish, that way hit hits you harder when all the racism, genocide, and human sacrifices start cropping up. I wonder how many of the Party's parents you'll have to murder in this one. Tales is an evil franchise.