Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[RelexCryo]

snip

Many gaming males are defensive because they have been aggressively attacked in previous years. Both verbally, with us being called adoslecent for liking fanservice in the first place, and in a more physical way, with many of our games switching from fanservice characters to realistic physiques. The gaming industry, rather than moving towards greater diversity, is moving towards destroying one thing while creating another. Tifa Lockheart and Lara Croft used to have huge breasts for example. Now they don't. Rather than creating new female characters with athletic physiques, they took fanservice characters and rewrote them to have more athletic physiques.

Rather than moving towards greater diversity, Square Enix simply destroyed male fanservice and tried to recreate the characters to be less likely to annoy certain people. Greater diversity would ultimately require making both fanservice for men, and realistic, athletic women. The industry, rather than including both, is making a move towards exclusively having realistic, athletic women.

Gamer males who like voluptuous women are having the games they like taken away from them. Diversity does not bother gamer males, being verbally attacked and having what you possess taken away from you does. And after several years of being told that the games we like are "bad" and that they should not exist, and several more years of the games we like being taken away from us, many gamer males who like these games have become defensive.

Simply allowing fanservice games while simultaneously making games with realisticly shaped female protagonists would not bother us.

Well, this really is the perfect illustration of how male gamers are just getting het up about losing their "boys club" privileges isn't it? Paragraphs and paragraphs about the cruelty of game designers, stealing all those boobies. Sure, they aren't actually doing anything of the sort (as illustrated above) but it feels like the world is a less boobyiful place, and that's what counts! And sure, you can still get more porn than you could watch in a lifetime absolutely free -- plenty of large breasts there -- but that would require the imposition of opening a second browser tab! Woe. Most fascinating of all is that this supposed shift towards less fanservice is literally seen as an "aggressive attack" and is even characterized as "physical" ... the pain of having to look at a female character who can stand upright without a backbrace is comparable to physical assault? My, my, we feminists are definitely the whiny ones here. 9.9

No one is "taking away" games; at best, the ratio of [total fanservice] to [slightly decent female characters] might be improving slightly, but no one is tearing your Lara Croft games away from your sadly groping hands. If the rate at which fanservicey games are made is slightly decreased (which I'm not convinced it is) that's still not actually a loss at all. Furthermore, characters aren't a zero sum game, and making more good female characters won't require that you remove any of the "bad" ones (and really, was someone on this thread trying to get rid of Lara Croft? I don't think so ) But if you're proposing that the (majority male) game designers are creating slightly fewer impossibly stacked women, perhaps that's just because not every guy needs giant boobies to make him like a game? And some of them are tired of pandering to the lowest common denominator? You can't blame women for adult men choosing to create more mature and realistic games.

\

I apologize, I meant the word, "tangible." Not "Physical." And the fact it is not a zero sum game, yet is being treated as a zero sum game anyways, is my point. We can have diversity, yet many people seem to be attacking fan service itself, rather than accepting diversity. This creates defensive thinking.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Words go here

If you don't see the inherent inequality then there is nothing that I can ever do to show it to you and I'm not nearly good enough at anthropology or psychology to explain it properly or convince you that it exists. As such I respect your opinion games but I disagree. Its been nice discussing this with you.

 

[RelexCryo]

Tifa Lockheart and Lara Croft used to have huge breasts for example. Now they don't. Rather than creating new female characters with athletic physiques, they took fanservice characters and rewrote them to have more athletic physiques.

Rather than moving towards greater diversity, Square Enix simply destroyed male fanservice and tried to recreate the characters to be less likely to annoy certain people. Greater diversity would ultimately require making both fanservice for men, and realistic, athletic women. The industry, rather than including both, is making a move towards exclusively having realistic, athletic women.

Um what? Tifa is just as big as ever and as for Lara isn?t Eidos the one responsible for the change?

I have heard that claim, I find it hard to accept, Aeris simply did not look anywhere near that big, despite also having breasts.

Oh yeah they really toned it down.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UAP4l44xsM

1:00

1 minute into the video.

Her in game appearance wasn?t intentional it just that when her character design was render into polygons it increased her bust size.

I have heard that claim, I personally believe it was intentional, Aerith wasn't anywhere near that big, despite also having breasts.

 

[RelexCryo]

Her in game appearance wasn?t intentional it just that when her character design was render into polygons it increased her bust size.

I have heard that claim, I personally believe it was intentional, Aerith wasn't anywhere near that big, despite also having breasts.

That?s because Aeriths breast aren?t anywhere near as obvious as Tifas.


Aeriths design

Tifas design

My point is that the developers could easily design polygonal boobs much smaller than Tifa's, they did with Aerith. If they could design boobs much smaller, which they did, than Tifa's weren't rendered necessary by the technological limitations of the PSone. They were either the result of designer intent or designer incompetence.

 

[RelexCryo]

Then it was designer incompetence since all other versions of Tifa have been accurate to Nomura's intended design.

Considering it was the final cutscene, and final cutscenes are consistently treated as a reward for getting through the game, I doubt this.

 

[RelexCryo]

EDIT: Never mind, I have been discussing this with Blitzwing for too long now anyways.

 

[Victoriaa]

Just repeating what has been said here..

Girls whine too much. They see sexism in pretty much everything, which is why most sane people don't respect them.

 

[RelexCryo]

Well, this really is the perfect illustration of how male gamers are just getting het up about losing their "boys club" privileges isn't it? Paragraphs and paragraphs about the cruelty of game designers, stealing all those boobies. Sure, they aren't actually doing anything of the sort (as illustrated above) but it feels like the world is a less boobyiful place, and that's what counts! And sure, you can still get more porn than you could watch in a lifetime absolutely free -- plenty of large breasts there -- but that would require the imposition of opening a second browser tab! Woe. Most fascinating of all is that this supposed shift towards less fanservice is literally seen as an "aggressive attack" and is even characterized as "physical" ... the pain of having to look at a female character who can stand upright without a backbrace is comparable to physical assault? My, my, we feminists are definitely the whiny ones here. 9.9

No one is "taking away" games; at best, the ratio of [total fanservice] to [slightly decent female characters] might be improving slightly, but no one is tearing your Lara Croft games away from your sadly groping hands. If the rate at which fanservicey games are made is slightly decreased (which I'm not convinced it is) that's still not actually a loss at all. Furthermore, characters aren't a zero sum game, and making more good female characters won't require that you remove any of the "bad" ones (and really, was someone on this thread trying to get rid of Lara Croft? I don't think so ) But if you're proposing that the (majority male) game designers are creating slightly fewer impossibly stacked women, perhaps that's just because not every guy needs giant boobies to make him like a game? And some of them are tired of pandering to the lowest common denominator? You can't blame women for adult men choosing to create more mature and realistic games.

While I agree the guy you quoted is a jerk, and that your argument has valid points, your argument would sound a quite a bit better if you weren't so condeceding. I understand that the guy is a jerk and you can get jaded by his argument but people are far more willing to listen and agree when you treat them kindly. You can have all the facts on your side but if you act like an ass and treat people harshly, they are far less willing to listen. If you treat other people with respect even when they don't deserve it, people are far more likely to agree with you or side with you in a debate. As for you giant boobs comment, I agree. An excellent quote from a friend of mine "more then a mouthful is a waste". (Please don't take that last sentance seriously, it is a joke, no offence intended.)

I am aware that most feminists are wonderful or at least decent people, and I don't have a problem with feminisim in general. Can you explain to me why you perceieve me as a jerk?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Just repeating what has been said here..

Girls whine too much. They see sexism in pretty much everything, which is why most sane people don't respect them.

Not quite "lol" worthy, but almost.

 

[tahrey]

would i get in trouble for making this observation?

 

[agrajagthetesty]

Just repeating what has been said here..

Girls whine too much. They see sexism in pretty much everything, which is why most sane people don't respect them.

"Girls are whiny!"

"Girls think people are sexist!"

"Girls aren't worthy of respect!"

Pffft, yeah okay bro.

 

[agrajagthetesty]

Essentially you are asking for an equal amount of female characters as male characters... Your telling people that its more important that we have more female characters, then it is for someone telling a story to tell their story. Your need is apparently more important then those of the person whose work it is.

No.

What's he's asking for is that people start seeing the genders as equal, rather than privileging males by viewing them as the "default gender". Once this has happened, it will naturally be reflected in the number of characters of different genders that appear in the media. This won't mean that people can't "tell their story"; as Twilight_guy has correctly pointed out, almost every time there is no inherent need for a protagonist to be one gender over another, that protagonist turns out male. Gender equality would change this, and without any adverse effects on the story itself or the creators' vision.

 

[Kashrlyyk]

...
For guys, the cooler it looks, and the more it protects = the more it protects.
For fems, the sexier it looks, and the less it protects = the more it protects.
This applies to anime, manga, games, and movies (probably applies to books, but hard to visualize in most cases)

Like I said, sex sells, and it would be stupid of them to not go with that

That is bullshit, Oblivion (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Armor#Light_Armor_Images) doesn't have any of that crap you mention and it still sold good. It is just **** like you that believe that ****.

Sex doesn't sell anything to anyone who actually has sex and even the ones that don't have sex won't think: "Uhh, short skirt. I have to buy that game."
Do you really think male gamers are THAT stupid?