Why aren't more realistic and serious animated movies being made?

[Chrishu]

Cowboy Bebop Movie. Ghost in the Shell. All the Satoshi Kon movies mentioned above.

 

[Kadoodle]

the lion king definitely doesn't sound like a kid movie and isn't a comedy.

All of the movies you recommend violate rules on my list. There's nothing wrong or childish with that per se, it's just that you should be able to make a film that follows my rules and still is good. If live-action films can do it, why shouldn't animation be able to do it too?

They are, and they have, and we have examples in this thread. I am curious about your use of English, are you native speaker? If so, don't you think that the way you redacted there implies that the industry haven't to the best of your knowledge created a film like the one you describe?

As a non native speaker, i am just curious if having that impression is correct or just a misunderstanding on my part.

Are you Israeli? (I'm basing this guess on the fact that you know about Waltz With Bashir and that your username is "Tanakh;" which is, last time I checked, the Hebrew Bible.)

Also, since you are not an English speaker, I think you mean "Reacted," not "Redacted."

 

[Vault101]

the incredibles was cool because it could have been live action, no silly talking animals or celebrity voices

 

[Kadoodle]

Why would you make such an animated movie when you can do the same with real actors and save several hundred thousand dollar?

No sci-fi, realistic plot, realistic people, world, etc? Why play much more to get worse acting when it's really cheap to do with real actors? What's more realistic than reality?

Animating inanimate objects is one of the most important parts of animated movies. If you don't need animation, than don't use it. If you do movies about ordinary people, than ordinary actors are enough.

You want movies which are better of with live acting to be animated. I don't see the point of doing so.

Alternatively, you want something to have a striking visual style. There are movies without any dialogue that rely entirely on their animation and style to drive the plot. (see the illusionist or triplets of belleville.) Furthermore, there are plenty of animated movies that would not be better off with live action. Look at anything from Aardman studios (Wallace and Gromit, Creature Comforts). You can't possibly tell me that the animation there wasn't worth it.

Just because something is expensive does not mean it is pointless.

 

[Nouw]

Grave of the Fireflies.

I'm not sure if some adults could handle that film.

 

[DJswirlyAlien]

Scanner Darkly...

Most "animators" won't count Scanner Darkly as an animation as it is rotoscoped (tracing live action film) not animated.

As an animator myself, I think a lot of animated films get labelled as kids films when really they are family films. There are aspects that kids enjoy more and also parts that go straight over the kids heads and the adults enjoy more.

animation is a long and therefore extremely expensive process when practically the same effects your looking for in your list could be achieved by live action in a fraction of the time for a fraction of the cost.

Actually your wrong. It is the other way round. Live action is about twice as expensive than animation. Live action is a far quicker production pipeline, even the CGI heavy ones. Basically film studios spend more money to make more money over animation studios.

Basically you won't find much of what your looking for released in the West because there just isn't a market for it when compared the the 'kids' market which is huge.

Wrong again. The market in the west is potentially huge but it is completely saturated by live action and a marketing nightmare too. Titan AE had ago but the marketing for it was all wrong. It was considered a flop at the time when released but has since become a cult hit as soon as it found its market. The kids market by comparison is very small which is why animation is better suited for it. Spending more time and less money making something for a smaller niche and relatively easy to market it too. Having said that live action is cheaper still easier.

So Titan AE. I think that is a good attempt for making something more sophisticated than a "kiddies'" film.

 

[Hunter.Wolf]

Because they aren't.

OP .. your arguments are so deeply flawed in many aspects it isn't even funny .. and some of your assumptions and so called "criteria" are totally wrong and don't make much sense.

For example .. How does a movie having elements that aren't realistic (like Sci-Fi elements which you mentioned in one of your replies about Akira, Ghost in the Shell) suddenly make it an animated movie for kids ... REALLY !!!! .. so Ghost in the hell isn't serious and is a movie for kids .. REALLY !! .. according to that logic all Sci-Fi and fantasy live-action movies for kids too !!!?

There are countless reasons why fantasy and Sci-Fi are quite common in animated movies ..becasue the medium is only limited by imagination .. some animation movies (especially the experimental ones would be 100% impossible to do with live actors .... of course there is the matter of each artist and animator doing things in is style as a form of artistic expression.. and of course the sense of immersion and coherence that is lacking in alst 80% of live-action sci-fi and fantasy because suspension of disbelief can very easily be shattered by cheap CG effects, bad acting, CG and backdrops looking out-of-place, bad casting .. and a dozen different things.

None of that means the animated fantasy and Sci-Fi movies are not to be taken seriously or that they aren't adult .. there are so many adult, serious, gory, philosophical, psychological animated sci-fi and fantasy movies.

*Deep Breath* OK .. ok .. i'll really enjoy tearing this topic apart into tiny bits .. let's begin with the obvious contradiction between your thread title and your reply here --> (The point of my post is to ask why they make so few serious, realistic and non-comedic animated movies. If they did, animation would be taken more seriously) .. sigh .. how did things change from (Why won't you accept that animated movies are only for kids?) to (why they make so few serious, realistic and non-comedic animated movies) .. *shakes head in disappointment* .. sigh .. no .. not all animation is for kids (just like FACT that not all live-action movie are for adults) and there are countless serious, realistic and non-comedic animated movies .. and Sci-Fi and Fantasy elements aren't the reason animation isn't taken more seriously .. otherwise live-action Sci-Fi and Fantasy movies shouldn't taken seriously too .. which of course isn't the case .. there is no reason to make such nonsensical distinctions .. DEEPLY FLAWED ARGUMENT ALERT.

=======================================================

Now let's move to your flawed criteria

1. Are completely realistic in plot and look, that is, people have reasonably realistic proportions (animated realistic-looking people have a beauty all its own), and it doesn't contain supernatural or sci-fi concepts. No alternate timelines either, since that's a sci-fi genre. Of course, neither sf or fantasy are inherently childish. But live-action directors can create masterpieces without fantasy elements or sf elements. I'm just asking animation to do the same.

They do .. and some of the most famous live-action movies are sci-fi and fantasy .. so why not animation sci-fi and fantasy !!!!! .. why the bizarre non-logical distinction !!!!?

2. Include swearing where appropriate, (edit: this one isn't completely necessary. I realized that people never swear in old movies)

Doesn't make any sense .. it doesn't require swearing to make a movie serious, mature or for adults .. that's just very shallow.

3. Don't sound like a kids' movie when you describe the plot. (So no talking animals, people!)

You really have a strange fixation about the talking animals thing .. but .. whatever .. countless animated movies pass this criteria with ease.

4. Aren't comedies. (Because if not all live-action movies are comedies, not all animated ones should have to be.)

Yeah .. not all live-action movies are comedies, and not all animated ones either .. you point !!!!? what does that have to do with the movie being serious or (not-for-kids) .. ever heard about adult humor or black comedies !!!!?

5. It has to be theoretically possible for the movie to have been based on a true story. Or in other words, it doesn't have to have been based on a true story, but it has to be the kind of film that's so realistic that it could be passed off as based on real events

Sigh .. i almost gave up .. what kind of criteria is that !!! .. you simply just want to see animated drama no more no less .. and you make the uneducated assumption that an animation has to be a realistic drama in order to be SERIOUS or BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY .. blah .. really ..IT DOESN'T.


=========================================================================

Sigh .. even with all that said .. FINE .. i'll play with your rules (except the swearing one becasue it is extremely stupid IMO .. and has nothing with being mature) ... there you go.


01-Tokyo Godfathers
02-Barefoot Gen 1 & 2
03-Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade
04-Grave of the Fireflies
05-Sword of the Stranger
06-Sky Crawlers
07-The Glass Rabbit
08-Only Yesterday
09-Whisper of the Heart
10-Ocean Waves
11-The Diary of Anne Frank
12-Kankara Sanshin
13-Japan, Our Homeland
14-Nippon Banzai
15-Malay Oki Kaisen
16-Run Melos!
17-Millennium Actress
18-Perfect Blue
19-Akage no Anne: Green Gables e no Michi
20-Air: The Motion Picture
21-Fire Rain
22-From Up On Poppy Hill
23-Hiroshima ni Ichiban Densha ga Hashitta
24-Kuroi Ame ni Utarete
25-Maabou no Rakkasan Buta
26-Spring & Chaos
27-Isewan Taifu Monogatari
28-Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal
29-Ojii-san no Lamp
30-Shoujo Tsubaki (look up Hiroshi Harada .. he animated this entire movie by himself)
31-Genji Monogatari
32-Death Lullaby
33-Waltz with Bashir
34-The Triplets of Belleville
35-Belladonna of Sadness
36-Rail of the Star
37-Shouwa Monogatari
38-Sparkling Red Star
39-When the Wind Blows
40-Persepolis
41-Tistou the Green Thumb
42-Toshizo Hijikata: Cornerstone of Understanding
43-Tsushimamaru: Goodbye, Okinawa
44-Nitaboh: Tsugaru Shamisen Shiso Gaibun
45-Tako ni Natta Okaa-san
46-Like The Clouds, Like The Wind
47-Colorful
48-A Wind Skimming the River's Surface
49-King of Eden Movies
50-5cm per Second

And

51-Nine Love Stories (biggest slap on the face of this pointless thread, with Beatles music involved too XD)


All those are realistic non-comedy drama movies,and it is theoretically possible for them to have been based on a true story (some of them are based on historical events).


That's just a small glimpse .. and it shows your argument and thread are totally pointless .. and if i ignore you weird rules and include ADULT serious sci-fi animation and ADULT serious fantasy animation to the list it will expand four or even five times ... add anime TV series that aren't for kids and the list expands 100 times ... all that of course ignoring ADULT animation stuff like Hentai .. which explicitly isn't for kids.

Heck ... you want the epitome of animation .. watch something like Genius Party short movies or the short movies of Studio 4C ... none of them are for kids .. and they are very bizarre, experimental and surreal.

Animation is very well and is taken very seriously by many respected people around the world .. you just have been sleeping in a cave ... go back there XD

/thread

 

[Evidencebased]

Did anyone say Watership Down yet? Sure it has talking animals, but that only makes it more traumatic.

And cosign everyone who's said "basically a ton of anime" because there is some seriously dark, mature stuff out there. And not just the blood + sex kind of "mature."

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

Snip

Well, the perception that all animated films are for kids make studios unwilling to pay for an animated film for adults. Thus only movies for kids are made, and everything else is forced to accept humor to not detract from the children audience. Since no animated films for adults are made, everybody assumes animation is only for kids...

It is a horrible cycle that only started to be undone.

 

[Evidencebased]

I think that animated movies should be left for kids, you said you wanted realism in the plot and characters... then realism should be on screen as well.

So movies should be all kind of boring and uneventful, and cast entirely with kind of ugly people with no makeup, and feature not very witty dialogue, and have no soundtracks or special effects? As an adult I say "no thank you!"

 

[xochiquetzal]

I think going to an animator and demanding realistic looking animation is a bit like going to MC Donalds and demanding gourmet food. it's not their specialty so you're simply not gonna get it.

and besides asking an animation studio to put down the money and effort it takes to make realistic looking animated characters knowing how big and steep the uncanny valley is,
is probably to big of a gamble just to make a thriller or drama in realistic animation and would seam a little pointless

the spirits within is a good example of just how bad it can go when we try that kind of thing.

 

[Captain_Fantastic]

well im just responding to this without really reading

and i wouldnt call Akira realistic
but the first time i watched it i litterally got sick to my stomach partially because of the giant fetus cthulu beast that grows like a bum tumor on steroids right near the end of the movie and part because of just how twisted it is

psychic smurf children FTW!!!

 

[Evidencebased]

ok, op, what the he'll are you asking? you post is a mess. you title it claiming that animation is immature, then admit that some are mature, then give a number of rules to prove maturity, which you admit are useless. THEN you post a list of movies that meet the requirements.

What do you want? why are you here? what is your question?

I don't give rules to prove maturity. Where does it say that that's what they're supposed to do?

The point of my post is to ask why they make so few serious, realistic and non-comedic animated movies. If they did, animation wold be taken more seriously.

I don't think they make very many "serious, realistic and non-comedic" live-action movies either, to be honest. A lot of the critically acclaimed movies like that are from before animation really took off (at least animation like Pixar, etc.) and nowadays most of the popular/blockbuster movies are pretty unserious (and aren't particularly realistic) even when aimed at adults.

So you have your gritty live-action wartime movies which are at least sort of serious and realistic -- but then you've also got your Grave of the Fireflies which laughs at other so-called-tragic war films and then kicks its audience in the teeth. And you have your realistic live-action historical dramas -- but then you have your Emma: A Victorian Romance. And for all the goofy dumb animated stuff there's a Hot Tub Time Machine or whatever.

In short, I don't think animation is too far behind live action in terms of seriousness and realism, it's just a smaller collection total so it seems that way.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I remember there being this french indie film with this black and white style that looked like it was in the same artistic style as the Flobots No handlebars music video.

Though for the life of me I cant remember what its called. I think something with an r, like re-something.

...

then again I may have completely missed the point of this thread. Why this bothers you so much tat you need a list though, I dont understand. if you want to see these movies then thats all well in good, but a google search would probably give you more results then the escapist (just by law of averages or something) and if you want to go show this off to someone who thinks differently then you, then they'll probably only look at the list and say yeah, but what about all the others that arent like that.

Of course none of that is meant to be a crack at anyone, just musing outloud I suppose.

Renaissance! I love that movie. The english dub has Daniel Craig and Johnathan Price in it.

 

[spartan231490]

Just because the premise is out of the ordinary, doesn't mean it can't be for adults. it doesn't have to be set in the "real world" for it to be an adult themed movie. Sci-fi and Fantasy are very rarely set in a realistic world, but they aren't kid's ideas.

Also, watch princess mononoke. it's a pretty adult animated movie.

 

[VanTesla]

Maybe 'cause they aren't. There are tons of kids' movies that are more enjoyable for adults. Movies like Toy Story 2, Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, Spirited Away, Finding Nemo, and so on. But the thing is, these movies are about a toy getting kidnapped and needing help form his toy friends, Batman fighting the Joker, a girl who goes to a magic bath house and meets an evil witch, a kid fish who gets lost and needs to be saved by his daddy fish, and they're all about kids' film ideas that they made an adult story out of. Sure, they're great movies, but here's what bugs me: It doesn't seem like there are that many animated films that take an serious adult movie idea and make an adult, serious movie that doesn't try to be humorous out of it. Or to put it more clearly, there aren't any films like Match Point or The Shawshank Redemption among the animated films and I think that that's the reason people won't take animation seriously. It won't handle realistic seriousness. And that's too bad, because if you were to make these movies with animation, they'd have the same great story but now they'd have beautiful animation as well. I rarely see any animated films that:

1. Are completely realistic in plot and look, that is, people have reasonably realistic proportions (animated realistic-looking people have a beauty all its own), and it doesn't contain supernatural or sci-fi concepts. No alternate timelines either, since that's a sci-fi genre. Of course, neither sf or fantasy are inherently childish. But live-action directors can create masterpieces without fantasy elements or sf elements. I'm just asking animation to do the same.

2. Include swearing where appropriate, (edit: this one isn't completely necessary. I realized that people never swear in old movies)

3. Don't sound like a kids' movie when you describe the plot. (So no talking animals, people!)

4. Aren't comedies. (Because if not all live-action movies are comedies, not all animated ones should have to be.)

5. It has to be theoretically possible for the movie to have been based on a true story. Or in other words, it doesn't have to have been based on a true story, but it has to be the kind of film that's so realistic that it could be passed off as based on real events.

Why aren't there all that many realistic animated psychological dramas? Or realistic animated thrillers?

PLEASE NOTE: These rules are useless at determining if a movie is good or not, or for kids or not, or mature or not. But if a movie breaks them, it's a sign that it's the kind of film that's almost always made live-action, even though it'd be just as good, if not better, with beautiful animation.

I watched Three Colors: Red a while back. Not a bad movie. I also watched Match Point a while back. Not bad. Why aren't there any animated movies like them? (And don't answer "CUZ MATCH POINT SUX!!! I'm talking about the genre and style, not the particular movie.)

Most animated films violate rules on my list. Well, the rules aren't for judging whether the movie is for kids or not, or whether it's good or not, though I guess it might seem that way. It's for judging whether the movie resembles movies like Three Colors: Red and Match Point. You know, the kind of movies that it seems are only made live-action. There's nothing wrong or childish with violating the rules per se, it's just that you should be able to make a film that follows my rules and still is good. If live-action films can do it, why shouldn't animation be able to do it too? Why can't fans of animations go see films like Three Colors: Red and Match Point in theaters that often? If we could, people would realize that animation isn't for kids a lot faster.

Why do I want movies that fit my list? Because I want to prove that animated movies are a look, not a genre. And it seems like thrillers and psychological dramas are very rare in animation. Some people ask why we shouldn't just make them live-action if they're going to be completely realistic anyway. My answer is that if we shoot them live-action, we'll lose the beauty of realistic animation.

These movies suit my list (please correct me if I'm wrong):
EDIT: There used to be a list here, but it got pretty pointless for a number of reasons so I removed it.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Some people are saying that the good thing about animation is that unrealistic concpts can be made much easier than in live-action movies, where it takes more money and effort to create sf-visuals, people with unrealistic proportions, and so on. But that implies that if there was a way to do all that stuff in live-action movies for free and completely effortlessly, animated movies would be pointless and they should stop making them. I think we can agree that this isn't true. After all, then we'd lose the unique beauty of animation. Surely nobody who's seen Tokyo Godfathers thinks it'd be better with sf or fantasy concepts, or without the beautiful realistic look it has?

tl;dr: It's because completely serious and realistic films are never animated that animation isn't taken seriously.

The problem with alternate timelines is that most realistic movies like Citizen Kane and Casablanca are alternate timelines for the characters don't exist. All movies can be considered alternate timelines, unless it be a documentary or biography.

A good, but long series with realism would be Naoki Urasawa's "Monster" anime/manga. Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade is a decent animated film as well.

 

[tehferret]

I was going to say a few things here but they have been said already.

Like several others who have posted, I am an animator and have studied it academically for several years but the thing that stands out through this entire thing to me is this thing that the OP keeps referring to as "the beauty of realistic animation" (or the like) the irony of this is, in order to create animation that appears realistic, you have to exaggerate it. If you do not, your animation is flat and lifeless. This is what Disney called "the illusion of life".

Grave of the Fireflies would be my pick and as was pointed out, animated features take a LONG time to produce, several years infact, live action can be done so much quicker and easier.

I think that one of the reasons why animation tends to follow these "easier" plots, rather then your deep, brooding, multi-layered dramas and instead have plots that would be easier for children to grasp, is because we connect with the characters and situations better and it also from an animators stand point, it makes the animation easier and it helps to create the "beauty" the OP talks about, as Glen Keane describes:

?My first scene that I got on Rescuers, was this little tiny scene of Bernard? I was struggling with it during a whole week and a half and then I finally went to Eric [Larson, one of the old timers at Disney and head of artist development] and said: ?Eric, can you show me how to do this?? I figured that he would show me some technical secrets, some principles or formula of animation...And he said: ?OK. What kind of guy do you think Bernard is?? I said: ?I don?t know what you mean.? ?He thinks he must do a good job, don?t you think?? I said: ?Yes, yes...? ?He puts his whole heart in everything he does doesn?t he?? ?Yeah, I guess so...? ?That?s the kind of a guy he is, he really loves his job...? and he started talking about Bernard and you could see this light in his eyes. He got caught up into the character Bernard and he became this little guy. I could just see what he was talking about: sincerity. He believed in the character. He did not tell me any secrets about drawing or animating, but he showed me how to feel. So I came back to my desk and the scene just popped out. It was easy. It seemed to me that this was always the point that I had to get to when I was struggling: to believe in the characters and to make them really personal for me. Every character I am working on, that?s the first step: find something that you can almost touch about that character?

Its late and I just wanted to have my say here

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

the lion king definitely doesn't sound like a kid movie and isn't a comedy.

"a cruel uncle murders a young boy's father in front of him. The boy is exiled from all he knows for years, upon returning home an adult to avenge his father and retake his throne."

sound kiddish?

how about cars?
besides the fact that they are cars and not the people in the cars it goes something like:

"a once prosperous town along role 66 is falling on hard times, with no hope in sight since the decline of the highway. desperate for solution, and to avoid starvation they turn to a stranded racer who is in debt to the community."

neither of those are childish plots, could have the "based on a true story" stamp.

Screw your rules 1 and 2. An adult movie those do not make. When you don't have the limitations of real life people why WOULD you try to do super realistic?
And swearing makes the difference? how?

also, I've heard Akita is pretty intense.

All of the movies you recommend violate rules on my list. There's nothing wrong or childish with that per se, it's just that you should be able to make a film that follows my rules and still is good. If live-action films can do it, why shouldn't animation be able to do it too?

Hopefully someone has answered this by now, but in case they haven't there's a pretty good reason why most mature animated films have elements of sci-fi or fantasy to them: budgetary concerns. Basically, sci-fi and fantasy are cheaper to do and do well in animation than they are in live action, because instead of messing around with special effects, the more fantastic elements are done in the same way as the rest of the movie. When it comes to a live action movie that doesn't need special effects, like, say, 12 Angry Men, doing it in animation adds nothing to the finished product, but it does increase the costs. That's why I like the way Japan treats animation; it's very much a "right tool for the job" thing over there.

 

[dowdpride]

if you liked spirited away (which is an awesome movie) try princess mononoke. same creator, but much more adult and much much better.