Why aren't there more female directors?

[Adam Lester]

My personal assumption is because until the rise of second wave feminism it was male dominated, and breaking through whatever norms were expected of one's gender became more of a "thing", it goes without saying director leads were held exclusively by males. The silent film era actually saw a few female directors such as Alice-Guy Blache' and Eloyce Gist, who were a minority in the field but still worth mention.

Bringing genetics into the argument has some merit, but by the same respect humans are a bit of a wild card within the animal kingdom because we're not restrained to whatever our gender entails in a physical or even psychological sense.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I was reading a book talking about human sexuality in one of the chapters they talk about what role evolution plays in how the sexes interact. Basically we are the offspring of men who took chances, and well succeeded. Women could take chances, but there was no benefit to it so we're mostly the offspring of women who didn't take chances.


I could see that having an influence on things. If you play it safe you'll likely never be a big director. Really though it's not just one factor. I'm sure a grate deal of it is just sexism. Witch is one of the reasons I almost hesitate to say this. I'm worrying someone will see this and use if as justification for sexism.

Don't worry. It's inevitable that someone has already used an argument like that as justification for sexism, but it's also bad science, so there's no harm done. Basically, the only way that could work is if "risk-taking" were some sort of specific gene located only on the y-chromosome, because that's the only genetic source that's (mostly) specific to men. And for that matter, it would have to be some kind of super-dominant gene, because it would have to somehow overwhelm the "safety first" x-chromosomes men get from their mothers.

Put another way, be wary of evolutionary explanations for sex-contrasted phenomena. Especially behavioral phenomena.

Or, alternatively, it could be linked to testosterone. Which would be measurable if you compared high-T and low-T people of each gender and see what correlates to testosterone within the gender.

They did do that while measuring financial risk aversion. IIRC, there is a correlation between high testosterone and more willingness to take risks, and vice versa regarding low testosterone, but that the correlation is between those levels alone, with no gender disparity in the actual effects (i.e. at low testosterone, men and women become equally risk averse).

It was mainly the "our ancestors specifically bred for x" argument (which testosterone levels don't answer) that made me raise my eyebrows, rather than the actual conclusion.

That said, if what Johnny Novgorod and Vault101 say is true about that the gender disparity shrinking or vanishing when examining the set of indie directors or directors in places other than the United States, a physiological explanation feels unlikely at best, distracting at worst.

What I find amusing is that I actually recognize the particular explanation Eddie mentioned because I was looking into a quote about gender of murderers and it turned out that the work they referenced was about aggression, hierarchy-building, and risk-taking behavior by gender that came to essentially the same conclusion. I found it amusing because it was a feminist article uncritically quoting something from an evo-psych article that they would have been wholly unwilling to accept any other point from.

That's...tremendously ironic, yes.

 

[sageoftruth]

If Yahtzee is to be believed, then Hollywood is set in its traditional ways. Considering Hollywood traditional is basically my grandfather's childhood, I imagine that would not be very inclusive to women.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Not to derail this thread completely, but I have a question: Why do people so frequently ask "why aren't there more female directors/game designers/CEOs/Engineers/Scientists/(fill in your choice of male-dominated field)", but no one ever seems to ask "why aren't there more female sanitation workers/oil field workers/coal miners/construction workers/janitors/pipe fitters/electricians/fishers"?

 

[mecegirl]

Not to derail this thread completely, but I have a question: Why do people so frequently ask "why aren't there more female directors/game designers/CEOs/Engineers/Scientists/(fill in your choice of male-dominated field)", but no one ever seems to ask "why aren't there more female sanitation workers/oil field workers/coal miners/construction workers/janitors/pipe fitters/electricians/fishers"?

Because half of those jobs, like sanitation workers and janitors, aren't that exclusive to men. Women, especially women who are not White, have always worked in jobs devoted to cleaning up others messes. Especially when it comes to being a janitor, we just call it housekeeping instead. And because with jobs like coal miners and construction workers women have historically been turned away from those professions. Like in some cases banned from even applying. Even now people would discourage a woman from becoming a construction worker.

There is the idea that since certain jobs are physically taxing that women can't do them, and so they are generally not groomed to consider those jobs as an option. Sure the average man is physically stronger than the average woman. But it's not as if every woman is a size zero with noodle arms or something. However, with jobs like a game designer there are no physical limitations.

Also, as a society, Americans have a bit of a bias against blue collar jobs. Unless they happen to be a tradesman themselves, no one dreams that their son will become an electrician, but rather an electrical engineer. It's more likely to think that someone settled to become a janitor. It's not exactally the type of job that anyone is encouraged to pursue while they are children, its only considered a viable option once you are an adult without whatever qualifications are needed to land a white collar job.

 

[Something Amyss]

pop singers...to me a just one cog in the record label machine, sometimes I imagine they have a say but other times..I dunno if I wanna be cynical they'd be replacable with a vocaloid were the technology good enough (and if it were the case that would be a record studios wet dream)

So folk. Country. Rock. Pick a genre. I think there are more prominent women in rap than there are in either gaming or Hollywood. Rap is not the most progressive of genres when it comes to women.

I imagine you'd actually find more lesbians with equivalent credits in the AAA music equivalent than you would women directing at the Hollywood level, and I'll expand that to producers.

I think it's a fair question.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The odd thing is that this only seems to be a directors thing, because on the producers side it's a lot more evenly split. Still mostly men, but you still have your Kathleen Kennedy's and your Gale Ann Hurst's ('s).

In the 90's we still had Penny Marshall, but she was at best a Chris Columbus-caliber director and I can't remember the last time she made a movie.

American Psycho was also directed by a woman. I don't know what she ever ended up doing.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Not to derail this thread completely, but I have a question: Why do people so frequently ask "why aren't there more female directors/game designers/CEOs/Engineers/Scientists/(fill in your choice of male-dominated field)", but no one ever seems to ask "why aren't there more female sanitation workers/oil field workers/coal miners/construction workers/janitors/pipe fitters/electricians/fishers"?

Because most of those are shitty jobs with strength requirements that no little kids dream of having.

 

[thanatos388]

There are a ton of female directors but mostly outside of Hollywood in foreign countries and in the indie scene. Actually I've noticed a lot of documentaries I watch have female directors. Hollywood is old, slow, and creaking and quite honestly we are all just quietly waiting for it to die so we can see how the inheritence will get split between it's offspring.

 

[Something Amyss]

"Rap" isn't a genre though. Unless you consider "singing" to be a genre.

If you wish to be pedantic, but weirdly enough we haven't seen any actual market confusion. Kedollarsignha is still charting on pop charts, even when she's paired with rappers. Or "rappers," if you count Pitbull.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Not to derail this thread completely, but I have a question: Why do people so frequently ask "why aren't there more female directors/game designers/CEOs/Engineers/Scientists/(fill in your choice of male-dominated field)", but no one ever seems to ask "why aren't there more female sanitation workers/oil field workers/coal miners/construction workers/janitors/pipe fitters/electricians/fishers"?

Funny thing about that.

Women had to fight for the right to be coal miners. Women wanted to be coal miners for the same reason that men did - not because it was glamourous, but because it paid well, sometimes as much as five times more than typical domestic employment like being a maid, and they could suppor their family with that increased wage. Women often had to pose as men to get work in coal mines, just like, in, say, the military, or in writing *cough* Bronte "brothers" *cough* and most other fields of employment. Who do you think were in the coal mines during World War II? They certainly didn't get to keep their jobs when men came back from war. They didn't get health benefits when they developed black lung. Women had to fight to be coal miners. They had to fight to be construction workers. They had to fight to work on oil rigs, and I know that last one is true because I know a woman who works on an oil rig, and she does not get treated well by many people there.

That still doesn't answer the question. I got it that, historically, women had to fight to get those jobs (and possibly still do), my point is that we constantly see articles about how "women only make up 20% of game designers", "women only make up 10% of CEOs", "women only make up 15% of Engineers", etc., with the basic point of the article being that this is something that needs to be 'fixed', but have you ever seen article pointing out that women make up 5% of Pipe Fitters, or 2% of coal miners, or 5% of oil field workers, and then saying that this is something that needs to be fixed? If there are I've never seen one.

And you are absolutely right (as some other people don't seem to realize), those jobs actually pay very, very well. I work in the HVAC industry, a tech willing to work 50 hours a week easily makes over $100K a year, and this is someone without a college degree.

So again, the question is: why is there so much hand-wringing and complaining about the lack of female game designers, but no one seems to care about the lack of female electricians?

 

[Dizchu]

It actually bothers me how there aren't many female "auteurs" when it comes to film and music (and game design, however I am personally more aware of examples of great games directed/fully developed by women).

Let me explain. When it comes to music, how many men can you think of that:

a) Write all the music and lyrics?
b) Play all/most of the instruments?
c) Arrange their own songs?
d) Produce/co-produce all of their music?
e) Master their music?

Any combination of those. You can find plenty of male musicians and an extremely smaller proportion of female musicians (Bjork, La Roux and Chelsea Wolfe are goods example of very hands-on musicians).

But more often than not, women in the music industry just sing, write a few songs, play an instrument or two and have a production team and session musicians sort the rest out. When women do everything on their own, often their music has a minimal setup (acoustic guitar + vocals or piano + vocals).

I'm curious to know why this is. Do women have a tendency to prefer a more focussed approach (interestingly this runs contrary to the "woman are the only people that can multi-task" stereotype)? Are women discouraged from being hands-on? Are men too eager to help out?

I know the thread is about film directors but as a musician I am more familiar with how the creation of music works, and there's parallels between the two industries.

EDIT: Before anyone accuses me of sexism, I acknowledge the exceptions! I'd like to know more of them, in fact. It's just as far as I can tell, the exterior of the music industry has plenty of women but the interior has a much smaller ratio.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Not to derail this thread completely, but I have a question: Why do people so frequently ask "why aren't there more female directors/game designers/CEOs/Engineers/Scientists/(fill in your choice of male-dominated field)", but no one ever seems to ask "why aren't there more female sanitation workers/oil field workers/coal miners/construction workers/janitors/pipe fitters/electricians/fishers"?

Partly because the jobs in the second list don't have nearly the same amount of exposure as in the first list.

And partly because those jobs aren't considered as societally aspirational - in fact, they're more like the things our parents threatened we'd become if we didn't work hard enough to become directors/CEOs/engineers/etc. - and therefore the gender disparity there doesn't come as immediately to peoples' minds. People have to be kickstarted in remembering that there are any people who want those jobs before being reminded that some of those job seekers are women.

 

[Vault101]

I'm curious to know why this is. Do women have a tendency to prefer a more focussed approach (interestingly this runs contrary to the "woman are the only people that can multi-task" stereotype)? Are women discouraged from being hands-on? Are men too eager to help out?

I know the thread is about film directors but as a musician I am more familiar with how the creation of music works, and there's parallels between the two industries.
.

I think women in many areas of life are still I guess..."expected" to take the passive route, the creation going up the big business has been a traditionally male thing... singing and such shouldn't be undervalued but again its only one cog in the music creation thing....but its still just one part (and in some cases) you're the eye candy...

I imagine you'd actually find more lesbians with equivalent credits in the AAA music equivalent than you would women directing at the Hollywood level, and I'll expand that to producers.

I think it's a fair question.

you uhhh....kinda lost me here

 

[Dizchu]

I think women in many areas of life are still I guess..."expected" to take the passive route, the creation going up the big business has been a traditionally male thing... singing and such shouldn't be undervalued but again its only one cog in the music creation thing....but its still just one part (and in some cases) you're the eye candy...

Yeah I understand what you mean. Men are expected to be competitive and assertive, women are expected to be passive and compliant. I find it disheartening that in a culture (at least in the west) where women have mobility and agency in their rights on par with men (except for a few bizarre exceptions that at least are getting protested) that some less overt "expectations" are still in place. I think I asked this question to my mother once and her only response was "well women just generally don't want to be directors/producers/engineers etc.".

I think it's kinda sad. Is it innate? Is it entirely a societal construction? Personally I'd like to see some proper female "auteur" work. Some "renaissance women", so to speak.

 

[Something Amyss]

you uhhh....kinda lost me here

It's my guess that you would find more comparable lesbians (subset of women) in music than women (the whole range of women) in relevant fields in Hollywood. On the "AAA" equivalent level.

Is it innate? Is it entirely a societal construction?

Look at female dominant cultures in history. I think it would demonstrate that women are every bit as capable in terms of the expected "roles" that go on.

 

[Vault101]

I think I asked this question to my mother once and her only response was "well women just generally don't want to be directors/producers/engineers etc.".

I think it's kinda sad. Is it innate? Is it entirely a societal construction? Personally I'd like to see some proper female "auteur" work. Some "renaissance women", so to speak.

Women are cheerleaders, men are players...I think on some level its still there

as for weather or not its social or innate? who the fuck knows...but I'm leaning towards social, in fact just the other day there was an article of speculating weather or not some of Bach's pieces were written by his wife

Directors and producers are high level "difficult" careers and as we've discussed there have been barriers there of all kinds

I don't think there's some inherent difference...women have had success as authors there's no lack of desire or ability to create, and again there have been female directed movies and such....just look at the success of OITNB which was female written acted and (in some cases at least) directed...hell Jodie Foster directed the first episode of season 2 if I recall

back to my first statement I personally think people underestimate that very VERY subtle "expectation" that looms over everything we do...to guys it seems so silly (why don't girls make their own games! [footnote/]grrrrrrrr[/footnote]but for them...doing "what they do" or having an interest in what they do is a GIVEN...not an exception, and that I think is more powerful than people might think

Nostalgia Chick (an online reviewer I am a fan of) talked about her in a book that purposefully kept the gender of narrator vauge...she assumed it was a guy, because when your a woman people don't act gender neutral towards you, particually in a male dominated field, they like to remind you your a woman

again similar thing, I walked into a game store and the guy did a double take when I said I wanted to pre-order assasins creed 3 and asked "is this for you?" that actually happned more than once (but not often) I don't have anything against thease guys as they seemed like genuinely nice people , but I was an [b/]exception[/b] there's always a level of self consciousness

 

[Dizchu]

Is it innate? Is it entirely a societal construction?

Look at female dominant cultures in history. I think it would demonstrate that women are every bit as capable in terms of the expected "roles" that go on.

Don't get me wrong, I think women are perfectly capable. I'm just wondering how much of a part human evolution had in the societal structures we see today. Why are men encouraged to do X and women encouraged to do Y? Why have "patriarchal societies" become the dominant type as civilisations became so much more vast?

This might sound like a ridiculous question but I'm just wondering if you (or anyone else reading this) knew, are there any historical instances of women being engineers and architects (the roles expected of males, mostly)? I'm sure there are and I might research it myself out of curiosity but I'm no historian, I wouldn't be certain where to look first (a Google search is probably not a bad idea).

 

[Dizchu]

as for weather or not its social or innate? who the fuck knows...but I'm leaning towards social,

Me too. But the human body is such a mindfuck that I honestly can't distinguish between nature and nurture sometimes.

in fact just the other day there was an article of speculating weather or not some of Bach's pieces were written by his wife

Woah woah woah! That sounds fantastic. I will have to Google this.

I don't think there's some inherent difference...women have had success as authors there's no lack of desire or ability to create, and again there have been female directed movies and such....just look at the success of OITNB which was female written acted and (in some cases at least) directed...hell Jodie Foster directed the first episode of season 2 if I recall

Yup it surprised me when I found out Jodie Foster directed for OITNB. Excellent series, and watching it I never thought for a second that there was some sort of dreaded "female gaze" that some often worry about in female-developed media. Also one of the few times I have seen lesbians portrayed in a way that appealed to actual lesbians! Jenji Kohan is a genius.

back to my first statement I personally think people underestimate that very VERY subtle "expectation" that looms over everything we do...to guys it seems so silly (why don't girls make their own games!)

As someone who studied game design in a class with (granted, not many) females, I can say for a fact that female developers exist and they are very enthusiastic. I'd argue that "expectation" looms over men too, which leads to problematic things. Gender expectations in general are a complete no-no.

Nostalgia Chick (an online reviewer I am a fan of) talked about her in a book that purposefully kept the gender of narrator vauge...she assumed it was a guy, because when your a woman people don't act gender neutral towards you, particually in a male dominated field, they like to remind you your a woman.

That's very odd, though I believe it's because most narrations are by men (when non-gendered narrators speak in books I always hear Stephen Fry for some reason). Nostalgia Chick's pretty cool though I haven't kept up-to-date.

again similar thing, I walked into a game store and the guy did a double take when I said I wanted to pre-order assasins creed 3 and asked "is this for you?" that actually happned more than once (but not often) I don't have anything against thease guys as they seemed like genuinely nice people , but I was an [b/]exception[/b] there's always a level of self consciousness

Yup, I've experienced this. I buy makeup for myself (and lots of it) and the reaction is sometimes "is this for your girl?"... then again makeup is explicitly marketed at women while games are not, so I'm not sure if that's an appropriate comparison.

 

[Fox12]

I think women in many areas of life are still I guess..."expected" to take the passive route, the creation going up the big business has been a traditionally male thing... singing and such shouldn't be undervalued but again its only one cog in the music creation thing....but its still just one part (and in some cases) you're the eye candy...

Yeah I understand what you mean. Men are expected to be competitive and assertive, women are expected to be passive and compliant. I find it disheartening that in a culture (at least in the west) where women have mobility and agency in their rights on par with men (except for a few bizarre exceptions that at least are getting protested) that some less overt "expectations" are still in place. I think I asked this question to my mother once and her only response was "well women just generally don't want to be directors/producers/engineers etc.".

I think it's kinda sad. Is it innate? Is it entirely a societal construction? Personally I'd like to see some proper female "auteur" work. Some "renaissance women", so to speak.

I've been wondering this myself, though I have to think it's more societal. I asked myself this when my rather bossy twelve year old sister proudly announced that she was going to be a director. It wasn't until then that I realized how few female directors there really were.

I know that, historically, writing was a boys club. As a writer, I find it interesting that this focused has shifted. Poetry was once a masculine pursuit, one that didn't welcome women. Today it's typically seen as feminine, and there's an idea that men should focus on mathematics and science, whereas women should focus on the arts. I can actually remember people saying that. I know that Mary Shelley, Jane Austin, Mary Wollstonecraft, the Bronte sisters, and others pushed the boundaries, and now writing is seen as a gender neutral pursuit.

I read somewhere that most CEO's are well over six feet tall, even though most people aren't that tall. The paper talked about how tall people were subconsciously preferred for leadership positions. I wonder if women face the same discrimination that shorter men would face in that situation when it comes to jobs where you're in charge, or where you're seen by the public. After all, getting a book published doesn't require an intimidating figure when most people don't see or think about you. I know for a fact most singers aren't successful if they aren't attractive, regardless of gender.