Why aren't there more games with female/gay/... characters in indie games?

[JayElleBee]

As there seems to be a significant interest in games with "different" perspectives, i really can't figure out why in capitalist system there aren't more independent games with female/gay/... protagonists (that big games with big money behind them are risk-averse i can understand). In a time where a video (!) about gender and games manages to collect 150k on kickstarter shouldn't there be indie developers flooding this niche where there is demand and no product? As i said, i don't know why it isn't happening and so i would like to hear your thoughts/opinions.

May I introduce you to ... Coming Out On Top! [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obscurasoft/coming-out-on-top-a-gay-dating-sim-video-game] A gay dating sim that pulled in $38,601 on Kickstarter (its original goal was $5000).

There are probably more examples, but that was the first one I found. I imagine there are quite a few indie games with LGBT or female protagonists, but we just don't hear about them because, well, indie.

I'm not surprised that big-name developers are wary of putting LGBT characters in their games, given the stupid outcry there was over Mass Effect 3 even giving gamers the option of playing a gay character.

Oooh, I played the demo for that. Glad to hear it's doing so well.

There tends to be a lot more diversity in visual novel games I've noticed. Like Loren: Amazon Princess, the first game I've played that had gay, straight and bi romance options of each gender.

 

[suntt123]

Methinks the simple reason is that they want to stick to what they know. I guess most game devs just aren't or don't know any female gay people (or at least not enough to make a fully fledged character in their game) and nobody wants to face the shit storm that would come from a blunder of a subject like that.

 

[Fox12]

In most cases it's because female leads don't "appeal to the target demographic." Apparently developers don't think were mature enough to handle female characters.

As for indie games, if I had a guess, it would be because most (certainly not all) developers are guys. In this case it's not any sort of intentional sexism, it's just because people write what they know. Hopefully this situation will improve soon.

 

[Archer666]

You think people like this:


can make gay characters? The best written gay characters don't flaunt their sexuality and are just regular characters. While I haven't played New Vegas, apperently Arcade Gannon matches that definition. Just a regular dude who happens to like dudes.

 

[80sboy]

You know, I think developers make what they want to make and what they can. If I was a developer, I wouldn't even know where to begin creating a character for a female lesbian. Personally, I think you can't really tell the story of somebody unless you have some understanding, or, you can relate to. Mostly, it takes a lesbian to tell the tale of a lesbian. It takes a white male in his 30s to tell the tale of a character that is a white male in his 30s. That's just the way things work. Unless you want really ham-fisted attempt at it.

I mean look at most female protagonist in games (Lara Croft). It's pretty obvious they were written by dudes for dudes.


:/

 

[McKinsey]

As there seems to be a significant interest in games with "different" perspectives, i really can't figure out why in capitalist system there aren't more independent games with female/gay/... protagonists (that big games with big money behind them are risk-averse i can understand). In a time where a video (!) about gender and games manages to collect 150k on kickstarter shouldn't there be indie developers flooding this niche where there is demand and no product? As i said, i don't know why it isn't happening and so i would like to hear your thoughts/opinions.

Dude, why in the hell would you put women and gay people on the same page? It's like saying "why aren't there more games about World War I/the Simpsons family?"
I really have no idea how game developers came to the conclusion that male gamers wouldn't want a female protagonist. Really, I can't even understand the logic here. Maybe their focus groups consist of 10 year old boys, I don't know.
As for the gays, the answer is pretty obvious - the vast majority of players don't want to play as one or even see one on screen. Unless it's a lesbian. I would definitely play that shit.

 

[IBlackKiteI]

Because writing a convincing gay and/or female protagonist for a game would actually require a great degree of effort to make it work, and since it hasn't really been done before (shit, maybe not at all) you couldn't just do the halfassed thing that a lot of indie games tend to do by grabbing something already done, tweaking it a little and yelling 'INNOVATION!'

That and it's extremely hard to write a convincing protagonist who is something you aren't and there probably isn't much point to heavily focusing on a character's sexuality above all their other traits anyway. If they're defined by being gay you're doing it wrong.

 

[Smooth Operator]

And who said the protagonists aren't gay or female?
Most of the time none of this is defined, in which case people just interpret them as straight male and then complain about it... might want to contemplate on why you yourself are imagining a situation of adversity.

 

[elvor0]

You know, I think developers make what they want to make and what they can. If I was a developer, I wouldn't even know where to begin creating a character for a female lesbian. Personally, I think you can't really tell the story of somebody unless you have some understanding, or, you can relate to. Mostly, it takes a lesbian to tell the tale of a lesbian. It takes a white male in his 30s to tell the tale of a character that is a white male in his 30s. That's just the way things work. Unless you want really ham-fisted attempt at it.

I mean look at most female protagonist in games (Lara Croft). It's pretty obvious they were written by dudes for dudes.


:/

If we're on about the latest one, that was written by a woman actually

But yeah, I agree, writing female characters is hard, and my more tomboyish ones always tend to feel like a slightly more sensitive guy in a woman's body rather than an actual woman, with all the nuances that brings. Unless you're a particularly good writer, you're generally going to write from what you know, so it isn't that the developers themselves don't want to do it, they just don't because it's outside their comfort area, otherwise like you say, it's going to feel awkward or hamfisted to the people this character is representing. Obviously publishers are a different matter.

I mean the closest I've got to playing a lesbian man character is FemShep, and that was just because well...I'm a straight guy, so chatting up guys isn't really something I'm in to. If it was a preset story and the girl got into the guy, sure I'd be fine, but I'm not going to optionally chat men up when theres kinky lesbian space sex to be had. But! I do actually play FemShep because her characterisation feels way more interesting, her lines are way better acted and she gets to exist,(ManShep feels so dull) because out of all the playable characters in Mass Effect, she's my favourite female. She's also the only time I've ever optionally chose to play female over male, because she's such a cool customer.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

You know, I think developers make what they want to make and what they can. If I was a developer, I wouldn't even know where to begin creating a character for a female lesbian. Personally, I think you can't really tell the story of somebody unless you have some understanding, or, you can relate to. Mostly, it takes a lesbian to tell the tale of a lesbian. It takes a white male in his 30s to tell the tale of a character that is a white male in his 30s. That's just the way things work. Unless you want really ham-fisted attempt at it.

I mean look at most female protagonist in games (Lara Croft). It's pretty obvious they were written by dudes for dudes.


:/

Write them exactly like you would any other human being because we are all the same despite different bits, colors and sexual preferences we are all the same. Same aspirations, same feelings, same goals, same desires.

And if you're determined to make their femaleness/gayness/nonwhiteness an important story point then just write in a few assholes using obvious dialogue that you should be familiar with if you have ever read or watched anything with similar subject material. And then write an obvious response that you would come up with if you were in that situation. It's really not that difficult.

 

[80sboy]

Oh...shit! I like this guy. ^.^

 

[80sboy]

Write them exactly like you would any other human being because we are all the same despite different bits, colors and sexual preferences we are all the same. Same aspirations, same feelings, same goals, same desires.

I also believe that men and women aren't as different as some people make them out to be.

But there is the whole nature vs. nurture thing. The world conditions us to be a certain way because of our race, gender, creed, etc. And that's a tale that can't be easily understood over the gaps. I mean, I'm a white male in my 30s living in American, does that mean I can also write about a white male in his 30s living in American...during the Great Depression? Well, I probably can, but I'd probably also have to do a lot of research: read books like the Grapes of Wraith, or articles of the time and how difficult life was before I can actually do it. Unless I do that research, just because we're both male - white, 30something, American - doesn't mean I "get" him unless I understand the world he lives in. Now a 30something women in American during the Great Depression? That's probably trickier, and the research might not do me justice. Okay, how about a Middle Eastern women in Saudi Arabia that has to spend most of her life completely covered in public...?

Now, even doing research, that would be pretty freakin' heard considering how alien her world is compared to mine.

 

[flatten_the_skyline]

A few years ago, I picked up the paper to read that a schooltime friend of mine won an industry award for designing a vibrator. Don't tell me it is impossible to write a good female character because you don't know how they feel. (Yes, those things happen, and your local newspaper reports on it obviously)

The paper states that he had "consultation" from his girlfriend without going into details, and I think you can easily get that as well as a developer. Even if you don't have a girlfriend you can still ask your mom ;-)

Sure, it takes less skill to write a character that is basically an idealized version of yourself, (like stephen King's novels consist almost entirely of authors in some kind of crisis and alcoholics), but on the other hand, how many game devs served in battle? How many fought dragons, stole cars and cold-bloodedly murdered people? I think if they want to make a war game and put some effort in, they will go and ask soldiers about their stories, and some games (not especially indie) have some plausible soldier characters (says I, draft-dodger and hippie). Why not ask LBTG groups for stories?

Recently, our local theater conducted a play that mainly consisted of actresses telling stories they collected from sex workers. It was authentic and really interesting, because the sex trade is something you usually only get outside opinions on.

Many minority groups are bursting with stories they want to tell, want to see on the big screen and why not in a game?
Your standard plotline (except for kill all foreigners) is you are in someplace where the masses are opressed by some tyrant and your quest is to bring justice. Now think how many countries you can name where homosexuality is a crime punishable by jailtime or even death. Is it really far fetched to have some sort of heroic gay character? Tone down the sexuality, just make it a plot device to explain why people hate you, and let the player experience first-hand homophobia. Don't be too stereotypical. Give them a love interest if you must, but focus on the plot, not the love story.

Sure, redneck homophobes will not buy your game, but do you really want to take their opinion into account when you have the chance to create something great?

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

:words:

Yeah but how many games actually take place in realistic period settings? Most games with heavy writing take place in the future, in entirely different galaxies, in completely made up fantasy worlds, or post apocalyptic worlds that are beholden to different and new sets of rules. So you don't really have to worry about any of that and can just call it as you see it.

Also, serious question, what the heck 'realistic' game could you possibly write where the protagonist is a female living in Saudi Arabia? They aren't really allowed to do much of anything we would consider to be normal fodder for games. I am intrigued by the prospect though. You find me a graphics artist and a coder and I will write you a game.

Afya Al Reshedi, a nurse turned private investigator living on the edge and staying one step ahead of the patriarchy. When her brother's death is ruled to be from natural causes, only she can unravel the mystery and bring the culprits to justice. The worlds first stealth based adventure/puzzle game staring an Arabic female protagonist.

I wonder if I could get Anita Sarkeesian on board. She could probably get the game funded with her legion of fans and even if I really don't like her much, I would totally co-produce a videogame with her.

 

[80sboy]

Afya Al Reshedi, a nurse turned private investigator living on the edge and staying one step ahead of the patriarchy. When her brother's death is ruled to be from natural causes, only she can unravel the mystery and bring the culprits to justice. The worlds first stealth based adventure/puzzle game staring an Arabic female protagonist.

I wonder if I could get Anita Sarkeesian on board. She could probably get the game funded with her legion of fans and even if I really don't like her much, I would totally co-produce a videogame with her.

LoL, you got my kickstarter money if you can get that going.

 

[Wyvern65]

Pong only had 2 characters in the entire game - bat one, and bat two - and they were all straight and white.

I'm afraid sexism and racism have been engrained into the very core of gaming since the beginning, and will never leave, ever. We may as well just all kill ourselves.

Well there was the white dot. You have to admit the first open depiction of a ballsexual in a game was pretty taboo-shattering. Though that was the early seventies with all its counter-culture icons.

 

[Tr3yk1ng]

As there seems to be a significant interest in games with "different" perspectives, i really can't figure out why in capitalist system there aren't more independent games with female/gay/... protagonists (that big games with big money behind them are risk-averse i can understand). In a time where a video (!) about gender and games manages to collect 150k on kickstarter shouldn't there be indie developers flooding this niche where there is demand and no product? As i said, i don't know why it isn't happening and so i would like to hear your thoughts/opinions.

there arent enough of them to warrent selling a game specificaly to them or the creators or mostly white males who identify with white straight males so they make games for white straight males.It isnt a conspiracy like most feminist think.