Why can't fantasy RPGs be more original?

[Alex_P]

Weak or not it is the definition of fantasy as a genre.

Genres don't have clearly-delimited definitions. They're amorphous, shifting, culturally-constructed blobs. As such, the only test of a definition's quality is how well it actually matches the set of stuff conventionally considered within a genre or outside it. Most people wouldn't say that horror, sci-fi, magical realism, and any other work set in a fictional world are all "fantasy," so any definition that naturally sucks them all into its fold is critically flawed.

-- Alex

 

[Imperator_2]

Let us remember the topic...

 

[Eyclonus]

The definition of genre is a tricky thing to name, in some cases one is able to point at some work or author and say anything like that. However more often we're left with having to use some rule of thumb, which gets hijacked by academics who decide that having a PHD means they're God's Advocate and say that the rule of thumb is now a concrete law.
Then some one comes along later and decides to through Concrete Laws out the window, making up something free from these strict definitions. Subsequently either a sub-genre is spawned, a new genre, or most rare, a change in definition.

Most of that is the description of Literary Critique theory, its the same in Film Theory. With games, the Games as Art movement would require us to use a similar mindset to game analysis.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

Weak or not it is the definition of fantasy as a genre.

Genres don't have clearly-delimited definitions. They're amorphous, shifting, culturally-constructed blobs. As such, the only test of a definition's quality is how well it actually matches the set of stuff conventionally considered within a genre or outside it. Most people wouldn't say that horror, sci-fi, magical realism, and any other work set in a fictional world are all "fantasy," so any definition that naturally sucks them all into its fold is critically flawed.

-- Alex

Fantasy is a very broad genre. Most people have very specific expectations of what fantasy is.

Look at the noun "fantasy," a product of imagination. That is where the definition of the genre comes from.

What many people think of as fantasy is divided into two sets: traditional and high fantasy. Traditional being fairie tale-esque stories, high being Tolkien-esque stories.

Of course, as you said genres aren't clearly defined and are different things to different people. Obviously it's easy and informative enough to group books into Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Horror, Romance, Adventure, and Action genres but in Culture Studies those don't cut it. My definitions come from culture studies.

Also, why do you keep mentioning magic realism? Isn't that just a moderately popular Latino genre?

By the way, I think magic realism sucks. It's only slim appeal being the uniqueness of the genre, and it's distinguishing features almost invariably create unbelievable (in a bad way) characters and shameless use of Deus ex machina.

 

[Nazrel]

Science fiction is a subset of fantasy.

A fantasy portrays a world that does not and did not exist (as far as we can tell).

Tolkien wrote in "high fantasy," that's basically the genre he created.

Herbert and Asimov wrote in science fiction.

But none of them wrote in worlds that actually exist, therefore they are all fantasy authors.

Science fiction is not a subset of fantasy. Admittedly most of the stuff they call science fiction is science fantasy. True science fiction, hard science fiction is stuff that could happen based on our current understanding of the universe.

 

[Alex_P]

Also, why do you keep mentioning magic realism? Isn't that just a moderately popular Latino genre?

Umm, no? Umberto Eco and Gabriel Garcia Marquez are indeed popular "magical realist" writers, and many other Spanish-speaking writers have written works in the genre. However, various English- and German- language works also belong in the genre. Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children and Satanic Verses, for example. Works from super-extra-famous Russian(*) writers Gogol and Bulgakov are also often included; Kafka's works as well.

I mention it for several reasons. Unlike the stuff you find in the "fantasy" section of the bookstore, numerous works from the magical realism genre are considered part of the literary canon (as bullshit a concept as that is) -- even when they're recent. Likewise, magical realism generally doesn't involve a whole new world; rather, it's our world with "unreal" elements. Like the fantasy of Tolkien or Lewis, it's about symbols made "real," but those symbols aren't set in their own big special fancy world.

-- Alex
  

* -- Gogol is also Ukrainian, in that he's from Ukraine and writes about its regional culture in addition to writing about the culture of Russia-as-a-whole as well; people sometimes argue about which country he "belongs to," which is a wholly worthless exercise. He also predates the invention of "magical realism" as a category by nearly a century.

 

[Eyclonus]

Maybe the developers of games should focus on making an RPG which doesn't focus on story?

Alright I know that statement sits with other greats like "I'm 99% sure its safe!".
Maybe if instead of just having a writer hack out a script and then making it, they should have someone with critical rather than corporate point of view to check over it?

 

[L4Y Duke]

It might not be so bad if they at least changed the time period or something.

Imagine a game with elves and orcs, only it was set in modern times, with all the swords and stuff replaced with guns, daggers and power tools.

 

[Imperator_2]

Eyclonus, leave your contempt for the classics and your socialism at the door, please...

 

[Alex_P]

Maybe the developers of games should focus on making an RPG which doesn't focus on story?

Alright I know that statement sits with other greats like "I'm 99% sure its safe!".
Maybe if instead of just having a writer hack out a script and then making it, they should have someone with critical rather than corporate point of view to check over it?

Yeah, I could get behind both of those.

A more detailed, bigger-budget Mount & Blade with refined mechanics would be great: a game where you have a bunch of stuff to do and the storyline is mostly "emergent."

A game that was written or at least reviewed by a professional writer would be awesome, too. There are a lot of talented people you could hire for about the cost of a mid-level programmer.

-- Alex

 

[Littaly]

Obese elven women!

 

[itari]

On a finally note Tolkien, as person, was a snobby jerk who condemned the working class of England as unwashed, ignorant throngs, and all the young fans/stoners as disgusting individuals soiling literature by reading it.

Plutarch on the matter: ?It does not follow of
necessity, that if the work delights you with its grace,
the one who wrought it is worthy of your esteem.?

But he does have my esteem because he has created a world complete in every way. It's own languages, legends, origins, cultures, etc. I have not seen such an awe inspiring and gargantuan work of imagination. Even that still becomes so personal in certain places, so personal you forget the world and start admiring the characters (you love some of them, you hate some of them, you pity some of them, and you're even annoyed by some of them).

I am also bored with the usual elves, orcs, etc. situation but i would still play such a game if the story pulled me in or the characters. These are the clinchers for me. RPG's,to me, are interactive, challenging novels. I feel like i am living in one of those great books. If a world full of orcs, elves and dwarves(even hobbits, although they wouldn't be too unoriginal) provides this experience, i wouldn't mind playing in one.

 

[Nazrel]

You know there are lots of games that don't follow these cliche's.
Off the top of my head. The following series.

Xenosaga
Shin Megami Tensei
Suikoden (an elf or 2 here and there but alot of original races as well.)
Disgaea

 

[GothmogII]

Also, a game where it focuses on one of those fantasy typical races would be pretty sweet too imo, just seems like in a lot of RPG's where you get to pick your race, that it doesn't delve too deeply into what makes them work as people. And by that I mean, it just feels like all you're doing is picking an avatar and it's associated stats, but beyond that...nothing. You're just Mr.Genero adventurer in a different costume.

Even a game like Arcanum, where it goes to pretty good lengths to explain the various races and their situations, kinda leaves your character apart from this. So even though learning about how the orcs have become mainly factory slave labor, or the sinister relation of the Gnomes and their Half-Ogre guards, or how the Dwarves are now holed up in their mountains because of a Human's mis-use of their inventions. It still leaves your own character feeling apart from this, little more than a simple quest-doer and not much else.

Fact is, I don't really care what a fantasy game is populated with, as long as what's there has been used to craft and engaging and entertaining world, plot, and characters, then...awesome :3

 

[Malk_Kontent]

I think that a game, or series of games, based on the Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman would be pretty interesting!

 

[TsunamiWombat]

The primary problem with Fantasy is it ignores nuance and shades of Grey. Magic is awesome and has no reprocussions and everyone can use it, Orks are evil cause...Orcs are evil, thats what they do, high evil bladybla made them from blahblahblahsnore.

I'd rather see a Fantasy RPG without multiple races that focus'd on a different symbolism then European Fantasy Tropes. Jade Empire is a good example- martial arts and giant toad demons, woo.

Give me a fantasy RPG that lets me play as a Samurai, or perhaps the oft neglected Middle Eastern Mythologies. The Trials of Gilgamesh anyone?

 

[GothmogII]

The primary problem with Fantasy is it ignores nuance and shades of Grey. Magic is awesome and has no reprocussions and everyone can use it, Orks are evil cause...Orcs are evil, thats what they do, high evil bladybla made them from blahblahblahsnore.

I'd rather see a Fantasy RPG without multiple races that focus'd on a different symbolism then European Fantasy Tropes. Jade Empire is a good example- martial arts and giant toad demons, woo.

Give me a fantasy RPG that lets me play as a Samurai, or perhaps the oft neglected Middle Eastern Mythologies. The Trials of Gilgamesh anyone?

Samurai huh? Well...there's Throne of Darkness? [http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/throneofdarkness/index.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=gssimilargames&tag=similargames;img;2] Kinda Diabloish/Arcanum alike RPG based in an eastern setting. Got fair reviews much like Arcanum. Though, I don't know if it's quite what you want.

Then there's Nox [http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/nox/index.html?tag=result;title;0], again, it's more of an action/RPG in the vein of Diablo, only human as a playable char, and only one char at that hah, and while it does have your standard Ogres n' Zombies, it does try to mix things up a bit, it's also got giant scorpions, leeches, steam golems and such.

Next, Wizards & Warriors [http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/wizardswarriors/index.html?tag=result;title;0], I thought it was pretty good, it a pretty weird game, none too favourable reviews though. And you can be a Samurai in it! Or at least, there's a Samurai class. There's Orcs, but they're the pig nosed kind, there's also elephant men, cat people, pixies aswell as the standard elf/human/dwarf/gnome combo.

 

[Altorin]

because Fantasy has a set way of doing things.

it's only original thought is when it lampoons itself with games like Bard's Tale

 

[matrix3509]

Because J.R.R. Tolkien ruined the fantasy genre for everyone else. You can't write a fantasy book anymore without it being compared to LOTR. Same goes for games. Starcraft ruined the RTS genre for me. I cant play anything else without comparing it. Its the law of corporate economics. Corporations will always stick to the safe and reliable money makers. Anything different is too much of a risk that they arent willing to take. Basically the only reason things ever change is because of indie developers that actually care about making a product that will stand out. If it is a massive success, then a corporation will buy out the original idea and make 50 more titles like it, but not quite as good. It goes in cycles people.