Why do ARPG developers hate tanks?

[Kopikatsu]

I actually posted this on Gearbox's forum, which is why it's so Borderlands-centric, but Torchlight 2 is mentioned so whatevs.

I like tanking. It's cool and rad. But game developers seem to despise it for whatever reason. Tried Salvador, but in 2.5 he lasts an entire .3 seconds longer than the other characters. Then I saw Gaige, with her bot, straight damage reduction (Currently have a mod that boosts it to 9% DR from all sources), etc. So, after hitting level 50, I specced my Gaige as a full tank. Which is a role that she seems more suited for than Salvador because of her defensive skills, like the pure DR mentioned earlier.

But, Deathtrap barely draws aggro and a purely offensive build with the Mechromancer actually keeps me alive LONGER than the pure defense build because killing stuff before it kills you is the only option in 2.5.

It's very depressing, especially when Gaige's pure DR skill is the second to last skill in the BFF tree, making it effectively useless by the time you can devote enough points to a defense-centric build because the enemies do way too much damage to mitigate. I've more success just sitting at triple digit health with boosted Fancy Mathematics (Giving -126% shield recharge delay and +108% shield recharge speed).

Almost as depressing as how even with maximum health/damage reduction/elemental resistance, you'll still be one shotted by everything including trash mobs in NG 3-4 in Torchlight 2. The only viable build is ranged DPSer. Which of course is the only role that I absolutely refuse to play in any game despite (Or perhaps because of) it always being the strongest build.

Basically my question is why do developers hate tanking so much despite adding abilities that contribute to that playstyle?

Edit: I don't mean to bring the focus on Borderlands 2. As mentioned, the reason it's BL2-centric is because it's from a BL2 board. I'm talking ARPGs in general, which is why Torchlight 2 is mentioned, not just BL2.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Well for Borderlands once you hit the high levels you start encountering weapons that will do huge amounts of damage even without any skills backing them up, so If you had a character that could soak up an assload amount of damage, plus being able to put out damage as high as that, it would make the game really really easy

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

The reason is simple enough: in an action RPG, you have that key word "action". Tanking is a passive thing - a simple capacity to absorb damage. A fully passive thing like this simply diminishes the action segment by reducing the player's need to actively evade the enemy and use the rest of their abilities to their advantage. I my estimation, it isn't that they hate tanking but rather that tanking is simply anathema to the notion of action.

Borderlands in particular is a game that attempts to balance the idea that player skill should matter a great deal. The capacity to simply absorb tremendous punishment such that you could withstand withering fire without making any attempt to protect yourself reduces the need for player competence. The same is true of most any skill. Any attempt to dramatically alter the player's capacity for tank -or- spank reduces the player's need to be skilled. You see this to an extent in the Siren Wild Cat class. In exchange for a dramatic boost in firepower, you lose a tremendous amount of accuracy forcing the player to engage enemies at close range and thus placing at a premium the player's ability to maneuver in tight quarters safely. But, to approach from a different angle, it is perfectly possible to build a siren such that she has 80 - 100k HP in her shield. Given that alternate builds (with the same items just different skills and class mods) would have perhaps half this, she qualifies as a tank but she'd still be cut in half fairly quickly.

Simply consider this: in order to give players a true tank in borderlands, they'd have to have the ability to increase shields and health by at least an order of magnitude.

 

[Kopikatsu]

The reason is simple enough: in an action RPG, you have that key word "action". Tanking is a passive thing - a simple capacity to absorb damage. A fully passive thing like this simply diminishes the action segment by reducing the player's need to actively evade the enemy and use the rest of their abilities to their advantage. I my estimation, it isn't that they hate tanking but rather that tanking is simply anathema to the notion of action.

Borderlands in particular is a game that attempts to balance the idea that player skill should matter a great deal. The capacity to simply absorb tremendous punishment such that you could withstand withering fire without making any attempt to protect yourself reduces the need for player competence. The same is true of most any skill. Any attempt to dramatically alter the player's capacity for tank -or- spank reduces the player's need to be skilled. You see this to an extent in the Siren Wild Cat class. In exchange for a dramatic boost in firepower, you lose a tremendous amount of accuracy forcing the player to engage enemies at close range and thus placing at a premium the player's ability to maneuver in tight quarters safely. But, to approach from a different angle, it is perfectly possible to build a siren such that she has 80 - 100k HP in her shield. Given that alternate builds (with the same items just different skills and class mods) would have perhaps half this, she qualifies as a tank but she'd still be cut in half fairly quickly.

Simply consider this: in order to give players a true tank in borderlands, they'd have to have the ability to increase shields and health by at least an order of magnitude.

Siren with 10/5 Kinetic Reflection (using a mod) not only becomes 100% immune to bullets, but she damages people for having the audacity to shoot her in the first place.

I know that I complained about the lack of tanks and then mention a god-tier tank, but I feel like that's an exploit rather than something that was actually intended.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Siren with 10/5 Kinetic Reflection (using a mod) not only becomes 100% immune to bullets, but she damages people for having the audacity to shoot her in the first place.

I know that I complained about the lack of tanks and then mention a god-tier tank, but I feel like that's an exploit rather than something that was actually intended.

First, that's a short duration kill skill and second it does not protect the player the sorts of damage that truly threaten to quickly kill them in most circumstances. It largely provides protection from trash mobs of bandits and the like but offers no protection to bullymongs, rakk, threshers, skags, rockets, grenades, etc. In short, it offers arbitrary immunity to the least threatening damage type. Second, it doesn't seem to be anything like an exploit because of the lengthy list of things that are not affected by the skill.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Siren with 10/5 Kinetic Reflection (using a mod) not only becomes 100% immune to bullets, but she damages people for having the audacity to shoot her in the first place.

I know that I complained about the lack of tanks and then mention a god-tier tank, but I feel like that's an exploit rather than something that was actually intended.

First, that's a short duration kill skill and second it does not protect the player the sorts of damage that truly threaten to quickly kill them in most circumstances. It largely provides protection from trash mobs of bandits and the like but offers no protection to bullymongs, rakk, threshers, skags, rockets, grenades, etc. In short, it offers arbitrary immunity to the least threatening damage type. Second, it doesn't seem to be anything like an exploit because of the lengthy list of things that are not affected by the skill.

Least threatening damage type? Yeaaah, this isn't going to be a point we agree on.

Anyway, as mentioned in the OP, Borderlands 2 is only mentioned in detail because it was originally posted on a BL2 forum; this thread isn't about BL2 in specific. Actually, it's not really about BL2 at all because it's not wholly an ARPG despite having elements of one. I'll use the Torchlight 2 example to offer more detail:

As mentioned, even with max health/defense/resistances, you'll be one shotted by trash mobs in NG 3-4 even on the lowest difficulty settings. So a lot of skill trees become less effective for all classes, but they're still capable of pushing through it if you really devote yourself to it (Such as having a Berserker spam wolves or dash all over the place to avoid being hit). However, the Engineer's Aegis skill tree is all about tanking. It becomes entirely worthless because you have no movement, no real ranged options, and your defenses amount to shit. Also, you're only allowed to re-spec your last three skill points (Using a re-spec mod/potion to redo all of them will have you flagged as a cheater in online play and could lead to you being kicked/banned from rooms). So for thinking that a particular character build would be viable and building your character up to that, you're punished with having a character that you've devoted quite a lot of time into turn entirely impotent with no way to fix your 'mistake' or progress further.

I'd written out a much better version of this point, but it got deleted because my paste function wanted to be a dick, so you get this crappy version instead.

 

[Smooth Operator]

These are one man band games so you need to be about equally good at everything, classes matter a rats ass in these games.

There are also no dedicated healer classes, because zero damage - all support would kinda get you stuck when playing on your own, and with dedicated tanks you would just be fighting everything 5x longer without the danger of death... that is just a slight bit boring as all fucking hell.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Least threatening damage type? Yeaaah, this isn't going to be a point we agree on.

It is with rare exception that any particular bullet (or single shot to better define terms) threatens to "one shot" a player in borderlands 2 assuming they have comperable gear and level to the enemy. By contrast, there are common non-bullet attacks that can do precisely this.

Moreover, when you consider that relatively few attacks directed at the player actually are in the form of a "bullet", the utility falters further. The full list of enemy types it provides protection against is fairly short: Hyperion Personnel, Gun Loaders, War Loaders, and some Bandit types. By contrast, it provides no protection against: Rockets (more common late game but relatively rare on standard foes), grenades (incredibly common), melee attacks (any enemy can melee), Rakk, Threshers, Skaggs, Spiderants, Cyrstalisks, most bosses, Hot Loaders, Exp Loaders, Constructors, Ion Loaders and probably a few more I'm not thinking of at the moment.

I'd written out a much better version of this point, but it got deleted because my paste function wanted to be a dick, so you get this crappy version instead.

I'd say simply this. The tank does not have a purpose in an ARPG. A player should have the means to avoid or mitigate damage if they play well and a capacity to absorb damage in the event of mistakes (or if even skilled play assures some damage is dealt to the player). If you are presented with a game where there is no capacity to tank but no capacity to evade either, then you have not demonstrated anything except the existence of a problem with the game's fundamental design. That said, the notion that a game is broken when there exists an optimal build is fundamentally flawed as any complex system of systems tends to have optimal configurations. For example, there exist optimal builds in Dragon Age Origins, Baldur's Gate (and every other game that follows the D&D rules closely as D&D has optimal builds), Eve Online, WoW, Diablo, Fallout, Skyrim. Really I could go on at incredible length.

Is it "fair" that you're made to choose things before you really have any idea what is going to be useful in the long run? Probably not. But then if you knew with perfect clarity, the choice evaporates. There are no choices in the WoW skill tree or in the module configuration of an apocalypse destined for fleet combat because the optimal configuration is already known and widely available. In my view, it is not a question of fairness but rather if you prefer a choice or if you prefer manipulation of a system of systems.