Why Do Female Superheroes Rarely Date Normal Human Males?

[JimB]

There's an episode of Batman Beyond where Bruce is browsing through pictures of women he's dated, which included Lois Lane.

I'm only passingly familiar with that program. Do you have a name of that episode so I can check a few things?

 

[Cicada 5]

Given that superpowered women don't exist in real life, it's difficult to say what type of man they'd choose.

If they have to be in any way relatable, they must follow a logic similar to normal women.

I'm just going to say that your claims about the type of man women are attracted to does not track with the women I've met in my life and leave it at that.

Fair enough, but then consider this: do you know any woman in real life, who dates a man who is in some way clearly inferior to her?

I can't think of any version of Steve Rogers or Peter Parker that is half as despicable as Doom. Well maybe Ultimate Steve Rogers (and even he got dumped by Wasp).

Spoiler

Spoiler

And I could pick Superior Spider-Man out of context.[/quote]

Again, it is my experience that not all women think alike. You may not like a super woman dating a normal man but I don't think all women think alike. In fact, the Mary Sue and DC Women Kicking Ass have had some of their female writers and posters express annoyance at the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship.

My mom actually makes more money than my dad.

Superior Spider-Man was literally another guy in Peter Parker's body.

Not sure what the significance of the Ultimate Steve image was

 

[Cicada 5]

There's an episode of Batman Beyond where Bruce is browsing through pictures of women he's dated, which included Lois Lane.

I'm only passingly familiar with that program. Do you have a name of that episode so I can check a few things?

Out of the Past, Episode 5 of Season 3

http://dcau.wikia.com/wiki/Out_of_the_Past

 

[JimB]

There's an episode of Batman Beyond where Bruce is browsing through pictures of women he's dated, which included Lois Lane.

I'm only passingly familiar with that program. Do you have a name of that episode so I can check a few things?

"Out of the Past," Episode 5 of Season 3

http://dcau.wikia.com/wiki/Out_of_the_Past

Thank you very much, Agent_Z. Unfortunately, I must inform you that the episode "Out of the Past" aired four years prior to the episode of Justice League Unlimited we're discussing, "This Little Piggy."

 

[Cicada 5]

Again, it is my experience that not all women think alike. You may not like a super woman dating a normal man but I don't think all women think alike. In fact, the Mary Sue and DC Women Kicking Ass have had some of their female writers and posters express annoyance at the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship.

I hate Superman/Wonder Woman too. It doesn't invalidate my point.

My mom actually makes more money than my dad.

So what? I am 100% certain that if she married your dad is because he had something she admired. Maybe confidence. Maybe strong personality.

Your mom certainly hasn't married your dad because he is inferior to her in everything. Nobody does that.

Superior Spider-Man was literally another guy in Peter Parker's body.

Not sure what the significance of the Ultimate Steve image was

If you're telling me that it wasn't an image showing Cap as a jerk....
Same goes for Superior SpiderMan: pick it out of context and claim that Spidey is a jerk.

Look, doctor Doom IS a villain character, but do you honestly think he's the kind of guy who speaks like that. A solemn, overly haughty and extremely smart person such as him, speaking like an angry 14 years old mysoginist?
Do you know why you know that specific image? Do you know why everybody knows it? Precisely because of how bad an out of character it is.

So why can't a non-super male possess qualities a super woman can like about him in spite of his lack of powers? Just cause he doesn't have powers, it doesn't mean he's inferior to her in every way.

I know Ultimate Steve was a jerk. I was asking why you posted the picture as I mentioned that in a previous post.

Do I think a guy who has a preposterously low opinion of just about every body in the world except himself would speak like that? A man who sacrificed the woman he claimed to love to hell to gain super powers? A man whose ego makes it impossible fro him to admit his mistakes? A man who once tried to force himself on a peasant girl?

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/03/08/i-love-ya-but-youre-strange-that-time-dr-doom-tried-to-force-himself-on-a-peasant-girl/

Yeah I do.

In fact, I'd say what makes Doom so interesting is how deluded he is in thinking that he ISN'T just a petty, egotistical man child.

 

[happyninja42]

The only example I can think of, probably doesn't count, since it's not a comic book, but:

The Dresden Files. Harry's mother, a super badass wizard, who had a scary amount of power and connection in the supernatural world, hooked up with a stage magician who did kid's parties. And when asked why by a fan, on how did a normal guy like him get such a powerful woman. According to the author: "Because at that time in her life, she found a good, honest man, and that was what she needed."

So, yeah, that's the only example I can think of.

 

[DementedSheep]

Off the top of my head, there's Black Canary. I mean, sure, she is with a hero technically, But the Green Arrow's superpowers are: Pretty good with a weapon that was outdated centuries ago" and "Really nice moustache"

Also I guess anyone who's gotten with any Robin. Also, Wonder Woman had her very own Lois Lane in the form of one Captain Steve Trevor. Though I think he was phased out around the time bondage stopped being her one weakness.

Or it was just Sexism. Yeah, probably that. The paytreearkey had to keep all dem fictional wimminz down.

I don't think really think "non powered" superheros count as normal. It's comics, the difference between a hero with powers and one without is what they decide to call it.

 

[Cicada 5]

So why can't a non-super male possess qualities a super woman can like about him in spite of his lack of powers? Just cause he doesn't have powers, it doesn't mean he's inferior to her in every way.

You know, you make a good point, so I thought about why I insist a superheroine should date a superhero.

I got the answer: it's because as a female reader I'd tend to identify with the superheroine. And since it's a comic book fantasy, the one way to make a character look as valid as the superpowered protagonist is to make him superpowered too.

It's a comic book; imagine the heroine who is a magical alien princess controlling the power cosmic as she defeats ancient demigods from other dimensions.... then she goes back home to her boyfriend who works as an accountant. No, not gonna work. Unless you're a very good writer and write a specific type of story.

I'm not saying it can't ever happen mind you... I just find it not very likely, and also very boring on a narrative standpoint. Because if so, her boyfriend will be either the damsel in distress or a character that doesn't have much to do with the story.

Do I think a guy who has a preposterously low opinion of just about every body in the world except himself would speak like that? A man who sacrificed the woman he claimed to love to hell to gain super powers? A man whose ego makes it impossible fro him to admit his mistakes? A man who once tried to force himself on a peasant girl?

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/03/08/i-love-ya-but-youre-strange-that-time-dr-doom-tried-to-force-himself-on-a-peasant-girl/

Yeah I do.

In fact, I'd say what makes Doom so interesting is how deluded he is in thinking that he ISN'T just a petty, egotistical man child.

I have doubts concerning the extent of your knowledge about Victor Von Doom!
I'm a big fan of the character, and let me assure you, he is NOT the kind of guy to ever speak in such a manner. Anyone who read a bunch of comics about Doom knows how out of character and awful that scene is. Again, I repeat you, that panel is so famous precisely because of how bad it is.

Then again, we're talking about American superhero comics. There is no canon. Anything happens. Even Lobo at one point became a pretty boy out of some Twilight fanfic. So if there's room for a Lobo like that, there's room for such an awful, childish and ridiculous Doom.

EDIT:
Incidentally, one of the comments in the link you've given me already explains the issue: "Because it doesn?t fit with his deeply delusional self-image that he is ?fair, decent, and noble? in any area not involving killing Reed Richards. It also rather contradicts all those stories where he?s amusingly courtly with even mortal enemies who happen to be female. "

Fair points. It all comes down to preference I suppose.

Doom has done and said things on par or even worse than that panel. The guy tried to force himself on a peasant girl. He hates Reed for something Reed didn't even do. Also, him thinking of himself as fair, decent and noble doesn't mean he acts that way all the time or that he can't see his action as ignoble or hypocritical.

 

[Lightknight]

She is a powerless incarnation of a superhero. That she is normal in that universe is somewhat irrelevant.

It is impossible for me to disagree more strongly that not have special hardware, special training, and a place on a team of superheroes is an irrelevant consideration when deciding whether she can be accurately described as having special hardware, special training, and a place on a team of superheroes. Seriously, are you taking the piss here? I'm really asking, because I can't tell.

So, if full-powered wonder woman dated a powerless clark kent in Earth 345 or whatever, you would deem that as a legitimate example of her just dating some Normie? I generally see it as a person with the full potential of being a super hero at any point in the story. Her dating Clark Kent would be different from her dating Joe Blow (forgive me if that is the name of an actual hero of some kind).

Either way, they stink of him to put it bluntly and their in-story cast also reeks of him from name alliteration to everything else.

I invite you to prove which aspects of their character creation he is responsible for, then, though I question what profit you perceive you have on doing so.

It's unnecessary. It's a common theme that spans nearly the entirety of his body of work. Do you believe it's coincidence that he had a hand in so many of their stories?

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

The thought of having defending someone catering to their customer base is ridiculous.

I agree; so why are you doing it?

The premise of the thread is that men date a lot of normal girls and that the implications of this is perhaps sexist. Either that was the goal of the OP (no offense) or has become the point of debate going forward.

Hence the need to defend that creating a story of a super hero dating a normal person is not bad.

 

[WolfThomas]

I'd think for the purposes of this, a "normal" person would be someone who isn't involved in the superhero game regularly. An awful lot of the "normal" types superheroes date end up with temporary powers at some point or are exceptional "normal" types, like Moira being a genius and world renowned geneticist or Lois Lane temporarily having Kryptonian powers. If we discount all of those individuals, hardly any hero, male or female has ever dated a "normal" person. Which isn't all that surprising given that the writers are going to want to do more with the love interest than have them sit around eating snacks all day.

You raise excellent points about love interests often gaining temporary powers and being hyper competent.

I will continue to to argue John Jameson however. I think he has been Man-Wolf for 6-7 times over the years that's definitely more than just a temporary power.

 

[JimB]

So, if full-powered Wonder Woman dated a powerless Clark Kent in Earth 345 or whatever, you would deem that as a legitimate example of her just dating some normie?

I'd pretty much have to, since the original question said nothing about limiting the trend to specific continuities. I wouldn't assign it as much weight as I would the Miles/Kate thing, though, since the Ultimate universe existed for something like fifteen years and Miles Morales was Spider-Man for something like five of them.

It's unnecessary. It's a common theme that spans nearly the entirety of his body of work. Do you believe it's coincidence that he had a hand in so many of their stories?

No, but I think you give him too much credit as what you seem to think is the sole author of the trend. Superman did it decades before any of Stan Lee's popular works rose. Both Barry Allen and Jay Garrick (the Flash) predate Spider-Man, and they both had normie-girlfriends, as do both Alan Scott and Hal Jordan (Green Lantern). Ibis the Invincible was dating a mortal woman. Captain Triumph (or half of him, anyway) was perpetually engaged to normie Kim Meredith. Ray Palmer (the Atom) had plain ol' Jean Loring.

Stan Lee did not create the trend of superpowed men dating mortal women. If anything, compared to most of the women on this list, his only innovation was to not give the women evil, superpowered split personalities.

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

The premise of the thread is that men date a lot of normal girls and that the implications of this is perhaps sexist.

Uh, Agent_Z said no such thing. I said so, but he didn't.

 

[Gorrath]

I'd think for the purposes of this, a "normal" person would be someone who isn't involved in the superhero game regularly. An awful lot of the "normal" types superheroes date end up with temporary powers at some point or are exceptional "normal" types, like Moira being a genius and world renowned geneticist or Lois Lane temporarily having Kryptonian powers. If we discount all of those individuals, hardly any hero, male or female has ever dated a "normal" person. Which isn't all that surprising given that the writers are going to want to do more with the love interest than have them sit around eating snacks all day.

You raise excellent points about love interests often gaining temporary powers and being hyper competent.

I will continue to to argue John Jameson however. I think he has been Man-Wolf for 6-7 times over the years that's definitely more than just a temporary power.

Oh sure, and I'd not argue against that as I'm really not familiar enough to do so. I just had a bit of a worry that the whole thing would devolve into a lot of no true scotsman back-and-forth if we started discounting anyone who was "exceptional-normal" or who ahd ever had any kind of powers. I don't know too much about Jameson but even with him struck from the list there's still plenty of "normal" men who dated superhero women. Not that you seemed to be arguing that there weren't, you just mentioned why Jameson shouldn't count, which is fair enough.

 

[Gorrath]

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

Well, going just by what the OP did say, the premise of the thread seemed to be that, other than the two examples OP could think of, female superheroes dating regular people was "rare." Since no qualification is given to what constitutes "rare" it's all quite subjective. One might say the list I provided showed that it is much more common than at least the OP seemed to believe. If you'll only be satisfied by a full accounting for comparison, I'm not sure there's a resource that could even help us figure out what the real numbers are and original research seems impossible given none of us have every comic book ever (I assume, anyway.) So I guess we are left with merely challenging the assertion that it's "rare." Given the list I can provide off the top of my head, I'd think it's not. I presume you might still assert that it is?

 

[Gorrath]

Stupid double-posts

 

[Roguebubble]

Here's a list of couples I've got from a quick search:
Invisible Woman and Mr Fantastic; Scarlet Witch and Vision; Rogue and Gambit; Cyclops and Jean Grey and then Emma Frost; Hank Pym and Wasp; Kitty Pryde and Colossus; Hawkgirl and Hawkman; Green Arrow and Black Canary; Richard Grayson (Robin/Nightwing) and Batgirl and Starfire; Daredevil and Elektra; Hawkeye and Mockingbird; Jessica Jones and Luke Cage; Storm and Black Panther; X-23 and Hellion and recently a time-displaced Angel; Ultimate Peter Parker and Ultimate Kitty Pryde; Black Bolt and Medusa; Raven and Beast Boy; Psylocke and Angel; the aforementioned Superman and Wonder Woman and many others.
So it does appear that the OP has a basis. I personally think this down to how many female superheroes started out either as a supporting character in another book or part of a team book and that until recently have not had a long running solo series where they could build a supporting caste which may include a "normal" romantic spouse.

 

[Lightknight]

So, if full-powered Wonder Woman dated a powerless Clark Kent in Earth 345 or whatever, you would deem that as a legitimate example of her just dating some normie?

I'd pretty much have to, since the original question said nothing about limiting the trend to specific continuities. I wouldn't assign it as much weight as I would the Miles/Kate thing, though, since the Ultimate universe existed for something like fifteen years and Miles Morales was Spider-Man for something like five of them.

I think that wouldn't be true to the spirit of comics. So many times they try to show that the hero is more than just a hero because of their powers but rather who they are. So many "more than the suit" storylines come to mind and it's the overt message they're trying to send that the spirit of a superhero can lie in wait in anyone. I know that's cheesy and over the top, but you've got to acknowledge that as a recurring theme. No?

It's unnecessary. It's a common theme that spans nearly the entirety of his body of work. Do you believe it's coincidence that he had a hand in so many of their stories?

No, but I think you give him too much credit as what you seem to think is the sole author of the trend. Superman did it decades before any of Stan Lee's popular works rose. Both Barry Allen and Jay Garrick (the Flash) predate Spider-Man, and they both had normie-girlfriends, as do both Alan Scott and Hal Jordan (Green Lantern). Ibis the Invincible was dating a mortal woman. Captain Triumph (or half of him, anyway) was perpetually engaged to normie Kim Meredith. Ray Palmer (the Atom) had plain ol' Jean Loring.

Stan Lee did not create the trend of superpowed men dating mortal women. If anything, compared to most of the women on this list, his only innovation was to not give the women evil, superpowered split personalities.

I can't help it if you personally inferred that I was saying he singlehandedly created all of those. I was just referring to ones who he is cited as having a credit in creating them. It is not coincidence that so many characters he had a hand in have similar qualities including love interests.

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

You and others produced a fairly anecdotal list of male superheroes dating normal people. The responders posted a comparable list.

I apologize but by the rules of engagement the burden of proof would now lie with you to establish a significant different in trend that is in line with proportion of expressed genders in the superhero community,

The premise of the thread is that men date a lot of normal girls and that the implications of this is perhaps sexist.

Uh, Agent_Z said no such thing. I said so, but he didn't.

Is there a reason why you said this but cut off the followup sentence in which I clarified that even if the OP didn't intend it, that is where the thread now is? You basically said that you turned the thread that way which is exactly in line with the sentence you omitted: "Either that was the goal of the OP (no offense) or has become the point of debate going forward."

Why do you think your response somehow makes the latter qualification incorrect?

 

[Lightknight]

Regardless, the large list of female super heroes that have dated regular males or females has largely put this (the point of the thread) all to bed. Wouldn't you agree?

How has it done so? Has it matched the list of male superheroes dating nonpowered women in number, or in percentage, or what?

Well, going just by what the OP did say, the premise of the thread seemed to be that, other than the two examples OP could think of, female superheroes dating regular people was "rare." Since no qualification is given to what constitutes "rare" it's all quite subjective. One might say the list I provided showed that it is much more common than at least the OP seemed to believe. If you'll only be satisfied by a full accounting for comparison, I'm not sure there's a resource that could even help us figure out what the real numbers are and original research seems impossible given none of us have every comic book ever (I assume, anyway.) So I guess we are left with merely challenging the assertion that it's "rare." Given the list I can provide off the top of my head, I'd think it's not. I presume you might still assert that it is?

Right, given that you can list off the top of your head numerous superheroines who have dabbled with normies it should therefore be safely concluded that the OP's use of "rarely" was merely due to a lack of knowledge of those examples because rare it 'aint'.

 

[ccggenius12]

Eh, I blame it on the fact that if a character is around superheroes but is not already a superhero, they WILL, at some point, either die or get powers. I'd like to know what percentage of female heroes started out as a love interest for an already existing hero/villain. Like, it's not terribly surprising that Star Sapphire is dating Green Lantern, seeing as Carol was created as Hal Jordan's love interest.
Give it time, and I think it'll all even out. I mean, if Aunt May can be a Herald of Galactus, eventually everyone who's considered normal in the books will be a super of some stripe. (see: Betsy Ross/She-Rulk, Jane Foster/She-Thor, etc.)

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

More choice of male heros for female heros to date. There is a lack of female superheros so the male heros have to settle for normal women or forever be alone.

 

[WolfThomas]

Oh sure, and I'd not argue against that as I'm really not familiar enough to do so. I just had a bit of a worry that the whole thing would devolve into a lot of no true scotsman back-and-forth if we started discounting anyone who was "exceptional-normal" or who ahd ever had any kind of powers. I don't know too much about Jameson but even with him struck from the list there's still plenty of "normal" men who dated superhero women. Not that you seemed to be arguing that there weren't, you just mentioned why Jameson shouldn't count, which is fair enough.

Fair enough. I just like talking about John Jameson. Did you know he was also a Superhero called Colonel Jupiter? Though only for 2 issues.