Why do people hate JRPGs?

[Shagdawg]

One of the best designed JRPG's was probably Chrono Trigger. In it, you fought the enemies on the same screen, a certain amount of choice involved in the story, fast paced battles, etc. [/quote]

Absolutely. Both Chrono Trigger and FF6 had battles that were fast-paced so you didn't get so bogged down every time you had to fight. I mean, I liked FF7 okay, but sometimes battles against normal enemies seemed to take FOREVER! I remember this two-headed creature in the basement of the Shinra mansion that had a ridiculously long animation. It got to the point I would just run from that enemy every time just to avoid spending so much time fighting him.

 

[clockpenalty]

In response to RUNNER_ACTUAL (Full quotations follow this post.)

Some jrpgs are good but most are pretty downright terrible:

* Some wrpgs are good, particularly those by bethesda and bioware, but most are pretty downright terrible

I think its the anime art style....

* Reference my point on the current backlash against anything japanese, including anime.

..Generally unlikeable characters...

* Yet more sweeping generalisation. Because its a JRPG the characters are unlikeable...what?!

Most westerners think....

* Really? The millions of westerners playing WOW? using magic and definitely over 17?!!!? once more sweeping generalisation FAIL


As to your suggestions on how to improve:

Appeal to western gamers....

* Personally I say no.Western gamers are already biased and appealing to them will just make JRPGs look like second rate WRPGs.

Steer clear of anime...

* NO. Anime is part of the japanese design tradition. Its like telling western RPGs to steer clear of tolkien because the japanese don't like orcs.

Do things differently or fail

* You have this correct. But what they should do differently is abandon the West as a design target for their RPGs. The bias is against them now and even if they clone Mass Effect they will drown under a tidal wave of hate.




As a parting shot:"Go to a bookstore in the United States. Look at the kids that sit in the aisle (ew) with the anime books that make the picture when you have all 87 books. They are fucking weird. No one wants to be a part of that. That is why we hate Japanese stuff."

And you claim you aren't part of the 'it is cool to hate anime' crowd.

People hate JRPGs because it is fashionable to hate on them at this time.

I case you haven't noticed, there is a noticeable backlash going on at the moment against everything japanese in geek-land.

People are hating on anime, japanese-developed video games and of course, JRPGs combine elements of both so they will get hit the hardest.

If you read the reasons people are giving (sweeping generalisations about spunky teengers and long cutscenes etc) you'll understand that they are uninformed and baseless. Like any meme, people are just imbibing and repeating what is currently 'cool' without using their brains.

JRPGs are varied and diverse. The gameplay is not always turn based. The animations are not always slow. Weapons are not always ridiculous. Not all JRPGs have gunblades. Not all JRPGs are brutally linear. Persona, etrian odyssey, demon souls and Nier are all JRPGs.

When upholding WRPGs, its the same bethesda and bioware games that are repeated ad nauseam, and not the hordes of unknown dreary boring d&d clones that *really* comprise the wrpg majority, so why focus on the thousands of korean (not even japanese) mmo's as your 'justification' for hating jrpgs?

Stereotypes ALWAYS have some basis in truth. Yes, some JRPGs I'm sure are good (to those fans), but most of them are pretty outright terrible. The same can be said for FPSs, action-adventure, racing, and motion games. I think it's mostly the anime art style and the over-the-top antics of the generally unlikeable characters that make the games difficult to take serious. Most westerners think, "Magic? Am I 7 years old again reading Harry Potter? No. Give me a gun." Things become much less "uninformed and baseless" when game after game after game has the same template. As I said, this can be said for multiple genres.

Here's what I'm getting at. I love racing games. I could take what you wrote, change a few key words, and say I'm defending the fact that all racing games are different and varied. Yes, to a point that is true. But I would be bullshitting myself to think that they don't share explicit similarities.

Also, thinking it's the "cool thing" to hate something has no weight as an argument. For example, everyone hates Bobby Kotick. We don't hate him because the guy next to us says he does, we hate him because he's a bloody prick!!

Go to a bookstore in the United States. Look at the kids that sit in the aisle (ew) with the anime books that make the picture when you have all 87 books. They are fucking weird. No one wants to be a part of that. That is why we hate Japanese stuff.

If Japanese developers want to stay competitive in the coming years, they will have to begin appealing to western gamers with new, fresh ideas that steer well clear of anime, emo teens, and fashion resembling diving head first into a tumble dryer. I'm not saying they make "brown and gray shooters WAH," they just have to do things differently, or fail.

 

[John the Gamer]

The fact that they wear half a piece of armor and still get through a fight without dying. I like (some)anime and manga, but I just never got into the whole jrpg thing. I prefer slightly more realistic(read: believable) games like fallout 3/NV.

 

[Azure Phoenix]

http://gamingbolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/RPG.jpg

This. The fact that this exists, and is fairly accurate is why I hate JRPG's.

 

[Pegghead]

I'm kind of indifferent, but the reason I don't play many JRPGs is because I can't stand turn-based or grid-based combat and some of the titles become quite obscure, often meaning that to find the "masterpiece" some jrpg fan holds up I'd need to trek through ebay to hunt down a copy that can only be played in Japanese.

Besides, some of them are quite samey and the fanbase is...well it's less than pleasant.

 

[clockpenalty]

If you read the reasons people are giving (sweeping generalisations about spunky teengers and long cutscenes etc) you'll understand that they are uninformed and baseless. Like any meme, people are just imbibing and repeating what is currently 'cool' without using their brains.

Or maybe, after playing a ton of JRPGs, people are just noticing trends and are voicing their opinions on the matter. Saying these accusations, as it were, are uninformed and baseless is, in and of itself, an uninformed and baseless statement. Have you ever played a JRPG? Then you'll know that a lot of them feature similar elements, twat waffle teens and cutscenes galore included. Like any genre, you're going to have common elements that are related to other games in the genre, that's how the genre is formed in the first place. Sure, you get a few that rise above the rest, but as the normal curve so aptly dictated, the vast majority will be nothing short of mediocrity.

1. You cannot generalise based on the lower 80% of trashy content, or all WRPGs would be dreary DnD nonsense with busty barmaids and heroes called 'th'tharigan the mighty, slayer of the warg'lathran'

2. The upper 20% does NOT fall into this category. Even the much hated Final Fantasy 13 *deliberately* attempted to subvert this by including an emo-teen as the most useless party member of all, and incluing a stoic, absolutely non-bubbly female and an unshaven muscleman as the leads. Yet somehow, the fog of bias cannot look beyond two minor party members. Even the token bubbly girl turned out to have a completely original role as far as those tropes go.

The point is, since the tide has turned against anime and japanese stuff in general, they stand no chance against the screaming horde baying for J-developer blood. Even the gaming press is on this bandwagon right now. My advice to them is to re-align their priorities and work on the domestic market.... the west has nothing but hate for them now

 

[Bakuryukun]

I personally have never really HAD a problem with them, I enjoy them very much. Just like I enjoy almost any genre I play for the most part. I don't really like the term JRPG though...I mean I know that there's creative diffrences between the two culteres and how they approach the genre, but that could really be said for any genre and yet we don't call Japanese Action games Jaction games, and Western action games, Waction games.

Though I think a great deal of hatred comes from people not being able to get passed the tropes. Tropes are horrid evil things you see, and if your game has even one in it, it's not worth it no sirree.

Come on, even Xenogears starts with your village getting burned down, but who cares, it's not where you start that's important in a game, it's where the game takes you and how it leaves you that's way more important.

I don't mind people not liking the genre by any means, but I hate the stupid bullshit rationale that follows it most times, with any genre.

 

[boholikeu]

In response to RUNNER_ACTUAL (Full quotations follow this post.)

Steer clear of anime...

* NO. Anime is part of the japanese design tradition. Its like telling western RPGs to steer clear of tolkien because the japanese don't like orcs.

They don't have to steer clear of anime, but they should steer away from the worst parts of it, IE the Akihabara otaku aesthetic. This type of stuff is even reviled here in Japan.

Do things differently or fail

* You have this correct. But what they should do differently is abandon the West as a design target for their RPGs.

Again, I think they'd just be better off abandoning the otaku gamer as their design target. Doing so would probably get them better sales in both the West and their home country.

As a parting shot:"Go to a bookstore in the United States. Look at the kids that sit in the aisle (ew) with the anime books that make the picture when you have all 87 books. They are fucking weird. No one wants to be a part of that. That is why we hate Japanese stuff."

And you claim you aren't part of the 'it is cool to hate anime' crowd.

He's not. Re-read the above quote. He's hating on the weird fans of anime, not anime itself.

If you read the reasons people are giving (sweeping generalisations about spunky teengers and long cutscenes etc) you'll understand that they are uninformed and baseless. Like any meme, people are just imbibing and repeating what is currently 'cool' without using their brains.

Or maybe, after playing a ton of JRPGs, people are just noticing trends and are voicing their opinions on the matter. Saying these accusations, as it were, are uninformed and baseless is, in and of itself, an uninformed and baseless statement. Have you ever played a JRPG? Then you'll know that a lot of them feature similar elements, twat waffle teens and cutscenes galore included. Like any genre, you're going to have common elements that are related to other games in the genre, that's how the genre is formed in the first place. Sure, you get a few that rise above the rest, but as the normal curve so aptly dictated, the vast majority will be nothing short of mediocrity.

1. You cannot generalise based on the lower 80% of trashy content, or all WRPGs would be dreary DnD nonsense with busty barmaids and heroes called 'th'tharigan the mighty, slayer of the warg'lathran'

2. The upper 20% does NOT fall into this category. Even the much hated Final Fantasy 13 *deliberately* attempted to subvert this by including an emo-teen as the most useless party member of all, and incluing a stoic, absolutely non-bubbly female and an unshaven muscleman as the leads. Yet somehow, the fog of bias cannot look beyond two minor party members. Even the token bubbly girl turned out to have a completely original role as far as those tropes go.

The point is, since the tide has turned against anime and japanese stuff in general, they stand no chance against the screaming horde baying for J-developer blood. Even the gaming press is on this bandwagon right now. My advice to them is to re-align their priorities and work on the domestic market.... the west has nothing but hate for them now

And yet Nintendo, Team ICO, and the Katamary Damacy team all make very well received, very Japanese games.

It seems to me the hate isn't against Japanese things. It's against a certain "anime" aesthetic.

 

[clockpenalty]

http://gamingbolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/RPG.jpg

This. The fact that this exists, and is fairly accurate is why I hate JRPG's.

That flowchart is horribly inaccurate and unfair. A similarly unfair and mischievous flowchart could be drawn about WRPGs, too.

It is merely a symptom of the deeper problem: A current trend of backlash. Its ok to hate anime. Just accept that your hate is purely personal preference and has nothing to do with logic or rationality.

 

[Azure Phoenix]

Personally, I love a good anime. The problem is that most of it is crap. The problem with animes and JRPG's is that they're both produced en masse, with the same structure. That structure may have been good once, but it has most certainly worn thin.

 

[clockpenalty]

In response to RUNNER_ACTUAL (Full quotations follow this post.)

Steer clear of anime...

* NO. Anime is part of the japanese design tradition. Its like telling western RPGs to steer clear of tolkien because the japanese don't like orcs.

They don't have to steer clear of anime, but they should steer away from the worst parts of it, IE the Akihabara otaku aesthetic. This type of stuff is even reviled here in Japan.

Do things differently or fail

* You have this correct. But what they should do differently is abandon the West as a design target for their RPGs.

Again, I think they'd just be better off abandoning the otaku gamer as their design target. Doing so would probably get them better sales in both the West and their home country.

As a parting shot:"Go to a bookstore in the United States. Look at the kids that sit in the aisle (ew) with the anime books that make the picture when you have all 87 books. They are fucking weird. No one wants to be a part of that. That is why we hate Japanese stuff."

And you claim you aren't part of the 'it is cool to hate anime' crowd.

He's not. Re-read the above quote. He's hating on the weird fans of anime, not anime itself.

Games that target the otaku gamer (queens blade demographic) are amongst the lower 80% of trash. The best JRPGs do not target this demographic.

The current hate wave towards Japanese development and anime is better served by reinforcing the abhorrent otaku culture and generalising that to include all anime/products from Japan.

Also you re-read his quote. He says 'that is why we hate japanese stuff'. He is hating on anime itself, by not wanting to be associated with dirty otaku. That is how popular memes are reinforced... by propagating a negative stereotype.

And yet Nintendo, Team ICO, and the Katamary Damacy team all make very well received, very Japanese games.

It seems to me the hate isn't against Japanese things. It's against a certain "anime" aesthetic.

None of the games you mentioned above are JRPGs. Also, Nintendo is currently beginning to feel the weight of this hate (skyward sword, other M and others are now subverting the 'zelda and metroid can do no wrong' filter), team ICO's last game was before the hate trend (I shall laugh and laugh when western sites pan the last guardian like crazy in their reviews but turn around and give it a high score in order to appear 'literate') and well...katamari...

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

Mega Snip

I grew up when the Pokemon thing started getting huge in the US, and I've never liked any Japanese media. The games, the TV shows, the card games, or the books. Ever. Also, I don't like any RPGs. W or J. Why do I want to odd jobs in a game? I do that in real life.

This whole post stinks of fanboy for the reason of you missed my points. Ya know, the other 2 paragraphs that weren't rants, but actually sensible arguments with examples and comparisons.

I can't "reference your point" because your point is opinion, not fact, or even loosely based on one. Using my opinions to back your own isn't a very credible defense, however counter-attacking my points is, but you didn't do that, did you?

Basically, you used my post to restate and reinforce YOUR generalizations of why people hate JRPGs, then, in the end, said I was right. So I think I win. Good night.

 

[clockpenalty]

Mega Snip

I grew up when the Pokemon thing started getting huge in the US, and I've never liked any Japanese media. The games, the TV shows, the card games, or the books. Ever. Also, I don't like any RPGs. W or J. Why do I want to odd jobs in a game? I do that in real life.

This whole post stinks of fanboy for the reason of you missed my points. Ya know, the other 2 paragraphs that weren't rants, but actually sensible arguments with examples and comparisons.

I can't "reference your point" because your point is opinion, not fact, or even loosely based on one. Using my opinions to back your own isn't a very credible defense, however counter-attacking my points is, but you didn't do that, did you?

Basically, you used my post to restate and reinforce YOUR generalizations of why people hate JRPGs, then, in the end, said I was right. So I think I win. Good night.

Since you ran away, I win by default

Also its ok to tell us the source of your personal hatred towards japanese media.AND rpgs. You just destroyed all your credibility right there.

 

[boholikeu]

In response to RUNNER_ACTUAL (Full quotations follow this post.)

Steer clear of anime...

* NO. Anime is part of the japanese design tradition. Its like telling western RPGs to steer clear of tolkien because the japanese don't like orcs.

They don't have to steer clear of anime, but they should steer away from the worst parts of it, IE the Akihabara otaku aesthetic. This type of stuff is even reviled here in Japan.

Do things differently or fail

* You have this correct. But what they should do differently is abandon the West as a design target for their RPGs.

Again, I think they'd just be better off abandoning the otaku gamer as their design target. Doing so would probably get them better sales in both the West and their home country.

As a parting shot:"Go to a bookstore in the United States. Look at the kids that sit in the aisle (ew) with the anime books that make the picture when you have all 87 books. They are fucking weird. No one wants to be a part of that. That is why we hate Japanese stuff."

And you claim you aren't part of the 'it is cool to hate anime' crowd.

He's not. Re-read the above quote. He's hating on the weird fans of anime, not anime itself.

Games that target the otaku gamer (queens blade demographic) are amongst the lower 80% of trash. The best JRPGs do not target this demographic.

The current hate wave towards Japanese development and anime is better served by reinforcing the abhorrent otaku culture and generalising that to include all anime/products from Japan.

Also you re-read his quote. He says 'that is why we hate japanese stuff'. He is hating on anime itself, by not wanting to be associated with dirty otaku. That is how popular memes are reinforced... by propagating a negative stereotype.

Maybe 80% is directly aimed at that demographic, but another 15% still largely influenced by it. That's the problem.

And how do you know he's generalizing everything? Most people that dislike JRPGs/anime still like other Japanese games like stuff from Nintendo, Team ICO, the Katamari Damacy team. They aren't typically "Japan haters" so much as "otaku haters" (which, I might add, describes most of Japan, also).

 

[BoogieManFL]

Lack of variety and uninteresting characters in my opinion.

And honestly most Japanese made games I've seen/played suffer from clumsy inefficient user interfaces and menus.

 

[RUINER ACTUAL]

Mega Snip

I grew up when the Pokemon thing started getting huge in the US, and I've never liked any Japanese media. The games, the TV shows, the card games, or the books. Ever. Also, I don't like any RPGs. W or J. Why do I want to odd jobs in a game? I do that in real life.

This whole post stinks of fanboy for the reason of you missed my points. Ya know, the other 2 paragraphs that weren't rants, but actually sensible arguments with examples and comparisons.

I can't "reference your point" because your point is opinion, not fact, or even loosely based on one. Using my opinions to back your own isn't a very credible defense, however counter-attacking my points is, but you didn't do that, did you?

Basically, you used my post to restate and reinforce YOUR generalizations of why people hate JRPGs, then, in the end, said I was right. So I think I win. Good night.

Also its ok to tell us the source of your personal hatred towards japanese media.AND rpgs. You just destroyed all your credibility right there.

What? With what? The Pokemon thing? Please, that's not the source of my hatred for it. Wow.

Once again, you pulled off amazing forum acrobatics in avoiding my point, along with several other people's points, one of them being from Japan himself. Can you just accept the fact that people don't like them for whatever various reasons? I accept the fact that people think racers are all the same left and right turns, and all shooters are brown and gray with guns, but I DON'T CARE!

 

[Schnippshly]

Usually,they've got good plots,

Well that's not true at all

good character development,

Neither is that

good music

Mmmaybe

and clever gameplay

OK that's not even close

which is basically what makes a game enjoyable.

Well, good gameplay and a plot to drive the player along is what "basically" makes a game enjoyable but yeah more or less you made a pretty good list of things that RPGs need and JRPGs lack

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I don't know why other people hate them, but the reason I don't like them is simple enough.

I don't find the common combat mechanics found in JRPGs to be any fun. Because I also tend to not like the stories, there is nothing to keep me playing.

There have been exceptions of course. I liked the mechanics of Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced even if I didn't care for (or even pay attention to) the story.

From the mechanical front, while the specifics vary to a degree, they all tend to follow the same logic. Turn based combat. Rock Paper Scissors relationships between the options. A fight against a given enemy type has a tactic that will yield the most efficient (that is, a solution that requires the fewest number of turns and requires the smallest expenditure of party resources) outcome.

The problem I have with this is simply that I don't often have much to say in the outcome of the battle. Once I've identified the most efficient way to approach a problem, I simply keep doing it. Such games then often arbitrarily halt my forward progress by ensuring I simply am not capable of passing a given encounter until my party becomes stronger. This leads to long periods of grinding where I am asked to little more than execute the same sequence of actions until an arbitrary number reaches the right point.

Basically, because I have no real capacity to sway the outcome of a battle and because I am forced to repeat a simple mechanical interaction for long periods of time, I simply do not like the game. If the story then does not appeal to me, I have no real reason to keep playing.

 

[Spinozaad]

While their are undoubtedly gems in the pile of pile of shit that's Japanese animation/gaming, I have no desire to wallow through liters of rancid, decaying shit; first to find, second to clean it and third to actually play it.

It lacks charm, I can't identify with the teenage androgynous characters (they are always teenage and androgynous, or 'old, gruff and not-badass'), I hate most of the gaming mechanism, etc. etc.

I'm talking about the Square-Enix type of JRPG here, and while I know there might be other games by other developers, I don't care. Japan can rot and die with its animation and gaming, for all I care.

 

[e.wlmo4]

For me the problem isn't JRPG's which games like Demon's Souls have proven that there is quite a bit of room to grow in the genre but the problem is SERPG's (Square Enix RPG's) that haven't changed since the original PlayStation.