Why do people hate realism in shooters?

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clippen05

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bug_of_war said:
clippen05 said:
Is there any particular reason people hate realism in shooters?
First off, there really isn't any shooter out there that have realistic shooting. Why?

1:Because nearly any gun shot from every weapon can kill a human being/severly wound them to the point where they would lay on the floor not being able to move much.

2:Shotguns and sniper rifles would be instantly over powered. Shotguns would have a MUCH longer range, and in the case of the Battlefield bullet drop, it would take MUCH further distance to cause a military grade sniper rifle bullet to experience drop.

3:Only the fastest firing automatic/semi automatic weapon would be used due to point 1.

4:Weapon modification would be limited AT BEST.

Shooters are fun because there are some tactics. Call of Duty and Medal of Honor for instance forces a player to think how best they play and therefore what the best selection in weapons and modifications. Battlefield has 4 different classes, all of which need to be distributed evenly in order to have a successful team.
Both Arma and Red Orchestra have gameplay that can kill you in one shot. Of course sniper rifles and shotguns are overpowered, but each team can only have a limited amount of each to compensate. Both have limited classes for smgs and hmgs aswell and lastly, there is almost no weapon modification. And there are tactics in these games. Moving up in groups and using covering fire from hmgs. Mortars and artillery are used to dislodge staunch defenders. Definitely has tactics; there's probably more tactics involved in fact due to the risk of dieing so easily.
 

bug_of_war

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clippen05 said:
Both Arma and Red Orchestra have gameplay that can kill you in one shot. Of course sniper rifles and shotguns are overpowered, but each team can only have a limited amount of each to compensate. Both have limited classes for smgs and hmgs aswell and lastly, there is almost no weapon modification. And there are tactics in these games. Moving up in groups and using covering fire from hmgs. Mortars and artillery are used to dislodge staunch defenders. Definitely has tactics; there's probably more tactics involved in fact due to the risk of dieing so easily.
ARMA isn't so much as a game as it is a simulation, hell the Australian army use it for multiple reasons such as training soldiers, simulating what would happen in certain scenarios etc.

Red Orchestra is a valid point and I concede that in that particular game realism does work, though I do remember writing "Realism≠boring" (though I should have written afterwards "but in the case of 'most' shooters, there needs to be some fantasy).
 

clippen05

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Ninjat_126 said:
Billy D Williams said:
Well, considering there is no such thing as a realistic FPS I guess you can't complain to much about them.

Seriously, show me the FPS where as a sniper you sit down bored out of your skull for 9 hours waiting for a perfect shot, where your in the middle of the desert riding around looking for IEDs, where one bullet makes you unable to fight and if your lucky you can get back to the hospital, have months of physical therapy and be able to walk again, etc. etc. etc.

Not to say adding some aspects of realism is bad, it can be used to good effect like adding immersion or depth to gameplay.
Red Orchestra
Arma
Operation Flashpoint

To half the thread: The OP was referring to realistic shooters, not "realistic shooters."

Realistic Shooters: Careful progression and long duels, suppressing fire, long ranges quick deaths and slow bleed. Lots of waist high walls.
"Realistic Shooters": Slow progression due to messy fights, AARRR PEEE GEEE, short ranges quick deaths but no consequences to taking 98% damage. Lots of chest high walls.



Playing RO2, I found myself trading rifle fire with a single enemy for surprisingly long amounts of time, each of us trying to judge the range and bullet drop, and occasionally bandage up after a graze. Also, I struggled with framerate issues because my laptop isn't built to run RO2.


Thanks for clearing this up. It's kinda sad how people can get confused due to Call of Duty and Battlefield's marketing. They are not what I was referring to at all. Call of Duty, and to a lesser extent Battlefield, are the exact opposite of realistic. Perks, thousands of weapon customizations, pinpoint accuracy, regenerating health, yadaydayda. Not realistic. Sure, they are accurate in portraying the right guns and uniforms maybe, but that's the extent of it. They don't have realistic GAMEPLAY.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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bug_of_war said:
ARMA isn't so much as a game as it is a simulation, hell the Australian army use it for multiple reasons such as training soldiers, simulating what would happen in certain scenarios etc.
Huh? Since when?

As far as I know the Australian Army, like several other militaries, uses Virtual Battle Space (VBS)... VBS 2, iirc. VBS 2 shares the same engine as ArmA (RealVirtuality engine... can't remember the version) but the implementation is very different.
 

Trueflame

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Because people use games as a means of escapism, and reality is hard and cold and brutal. No one wants to see what actually happens to body parts when they are hit with high velocity bullets, or to comprehend that the guy rushing from point A to point B and being a hero in a military scenario is actually going to be riddled with bullets.

That said, I don't know why people are so particularly antagonistic toward shooters that aim for such realism, when they applaud other games, like Dark Souls, for being extremely challenging, and complain about how gaming as a whole is being dumbed down. So maybe there is some kind of subconscious political angle to it, with sword and sorcery violence getting a pass, but gun violence being unacceptable and uncomfortable if it starts looking too real.
 

Callate

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"Realistic" shooters aren't very. If a game feels like a better experience for having relatively realistic weapon reload times, or bullet trajectories, or a lack of regenerating health, y'know, fine... Such experiences often seem to be sadomasochistic to me, engineered to minimize the amount of actual play time and keep player learning curves as steep as they possibly can, both to stretch out the amount of time before players get bored with their content and to inflate the amount of sneering derision players who got in early can level at the "noobs".

That's not everyone's experience, I'm sure, and yes, there should be room for all kinds of shooters and it's useful to have something resembling historical re-enactments for educational purposes and blah blah blah.

But "realistically" speaking, most real-world conflicts are a few minutes of adrenaline-filled terror along with hours of dread and drudgery. And once you're dead, you aren't dead until the end of the match, you're out of the match, so to speak, period.

I guess I would ultimately say that "realism", big ol' square quotes quite intact, is fine if you want it... But it isn't self-justifying, especially to other game-players. It needs something more compelling to justify what seems to many players to be a kind of excessive grind. If it can't provide that, I don't feel tremendous grief that "realistic" shooters should remain a relatively niche set of offerings.
 

bug_of_war

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RhombusHatesYou said:
Huh? Since when?

As far as I know the Australian Army, like several other militaries, uses Virtual Battle Space (VBS)... VBS 2, iirc. VBS 2 shares the same engine as ArmA (RealVirtuality engine... can't remember the version) but the implementation is very different.
Since very recently. They still do use Virtual Battle Space and other programs that you listed, but they began using ARMA when it became apparent that certain video games can be used to help real life scenarios (such as the online game that gave people a bunch of cells of different diseases/viruses and basically said, "figure out how to cure this" and people did). It's only been implemented in the last 2-3 years, and is mostly being used at career expos, but it is still used by the military itself. At least that's what I've been told.
 

thunderbug

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most of the so called "realistic shooters" are about as realistic as star wars.

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aKz4e9O_460sa.gif
 

Valthonis666

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Everyone tries to build these realistic shooters, and I'm just sitting over here in my corner, silently waiting for an FPS with the same grip on realism that Saints Row 4 has. Then I will be happy.

Also, thats my answer. Realism sucks. Its boring now, especially after all of the CoD and Battlefields and every. other. FPS. with. Realistic Physics / Gameplay / Guns. Its starting to reek now, we've been beating this dead horse so long that the maggots have developed knife fighting capabilities and are beginning to fight back.
 

Arkaijn

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For me it's because realistic shooters are rarely realistic, when military grade weaponry has the accuracy of a blind llama unless you're full prone and the character you're playing has the physical stamina of an asthmatic turtle, that's when I eject the disc and throw it out my window, preferably during rush hour so I'm completely sure it will be utterly destroyed.
 

Dogstile

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clippen05 said:
So I play a variety of shooters, everything from Halo and Battlefield to Red Orchestra and ARMA. Sometimes I prefer some running and gunning, while other times, (Most of the time in my case), I prefer to play a more tactical and challenging game. And whenever I read topics about shooters on other forums, almost every time the word realism is mentioned, someone follows up with, "If you want realism, go join the army!" I don't understand what's so wrong with wanting a bit of realism in shooters. If you don't like realistic shooters, you don't have to play them. They obviously won't be replacing arcade shooters any time soon.

Is there any particular reason people hate realism in shooters?
Because people associate realism with games that spout that they're realistic (cod) but aren't actually realistic.
 

Therumancer

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V da Mighty Taco said:
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Let me get this straight - your theory on why many people are getting sick of realism in video games is that they don't actually have a problem with it, but that they're being convinced by people with political motivations that they do? That there isn't a genuine interest in an "old-school comeback" as you put it or that the oversaturation of gritty games with primarily grey-brown color palettes isn't wearing out it's welcome for many people, but that the "left wing" is trying to brainwash the entire industry into believing something it doesn't?
This is pretty much why I sometimes wonder why I bother.

Ignoring your tone, your close. It's just that in your efforts to oppose the political slant I put on some of it your tossing around terms like "brainwashing" and the like when it's nothing like that. It's more a matter of the gaming industry itself deciding to push things in a less realistic direction to avoid political confrontations. The manipulation involved is simply the use of advertising by the gaming industry to create the perception that what it wants to do on it's own is because this is what people want. The idea being that if people can be convinced that everyone else wants something a certain way, they will decide they want it that way out of a desire to fit in with the trends. It's a very old technique used by a lot of companies for a lot of things, and it continues because it works.

It's sort of like how a company making say a shoe might want to make changes to signature parts of their footwear in order to cut costs. They don't just say "we're doing this because it's cheaper" they tout the changes as new, revolutionary, and act like they are doing it due to popular demand so all of the teenage shoeheads will think that it's what everyone else into shoes wants (there is a whole subculture for this believe it or not). They will even go so far to do things like pay off peridicals, shoe critics, etc... to reinforce the illusion by claiming that these changes are actually things they really wanted and were looking forward to for years.... when something like this works a company can make radical changes in it's own best interests that might even wind up screwing the consumer, and get the
consumer base to love them for it.

You are probably just opposed to what I'm saying because I am pointing fingers at a specific part of the left wing that is getting increasing amounts of attention and power because of things like the "Sandy Hook Massacre".

Another critic (Jazzjack2) who I am also addressing here to some what to avoid writing more than one response on some levels reinforces my point even if it wasn't my intention. The height of anti-video game hysteria was years ago, during the 1990s with protests over games like "Night Trap" of course that was loud mostly because the games industry stood up for itself and won. That kind of fighting is expensive though, and later criticisms like the whole controversies over "Manhunt" and "Hot Coffee" lead to the video game industry capitulating and allowing precedents to be established rather than fighting, conceding to censor/further lock out things instead of defending things like the unlockable "sex scenes" in San Andreas as rating appropriate caused the industry to lose a lot of steam and stop pushing the envelope as much as they used to. The biggest recent battle being over the goverment's right to criminally enforce game ratings which saw a victory in the supreme court (and was arguably the most signifigant battle but it did little for the content itself). At any rate the desire to shy away from realism continues the policy of trying to avoid confrontation, the idea being that if the games become less realistic they present less of a target during a period of relative anti-gun hysteria in the USA. Not to mention international criticisms about the level of violence in games made for a US audience including the oft quoted zinger about how it's fine in a video game to have brutal mass murders rendered in loving detail, but show full frontal nudity and a sex scene and people freak out (and the irony of this). With some of the censorship coming from Germany, Australia, etc... and the non confrontational attitudes of the gaming industry nowadays when it comes to such things it's easier from a business perspective to develop with those kinds of sentiments in mind (reducing the realistic violence, not adding more sex) than to battle censors, or release multiple versions of the game with certain content adjusted by region (which of course causes other issues that can come back on the company when the uncensored versions inevitably get circulated globally).

Now do not get me wrong, there ARE others reasons for this, especially when it comes to MMOs. With MMOs the logic is a bit different, unlike games that are designed for a quick sequel grindmill or fast consumption followed by people buying another game, MMOs need to be able to survive for multiple years on end. "Realistic" graphics age quickly which is a problem when looking at a game intended for long term use as opposed to quick "of the moment" appeal. World Of Warcraft demonstrated how a highly stylized art style can allow a game to seem fairly decent even as it becomes increasingly antiquidated, mainly because by not trying to be realistic you can't put up another newer "realistic" game and show how it looks like refried turds now compared to the state of the art. MMOS thus increasingly aren't even trying to look realistic and are instead trying to come up with cartoony art styles that convey the material specifically so the game won't look as bad when it's hopefully still floating around in 5 years and trying to get people to spend money on it.
 

Not Matt

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we don't HATE it, we are tierd of it. it is not you realism, it's me. i need some time for myself. i have forgot what sillyness is like and i am sorry but i think we need to take a break from each other and maybe meet some new features. i have been talking to Saints row IV and the arkham games and they think we should try to patch our relationship up bu after that spec ops afair i just can't look you in the eyes anymore.

okay. yeah, got a bit carried away there but that is basically the gist of it. we are getting sick of it
 

AuronFtw

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clippen05 said:
Is there any particular reason people hate realism in shooters?
There has not been, to date, a single "realistic" shooter game ever made, and certainly not in any of the popular franchises. Fat space marines + chest-high-wallapalooza + regenerating health + brown levels = reality? How about one where you're driving along in a convoy, your truck gets hit with an IED, you see two friends bite the dust and you spend 10 months recovering in physical therapy after getting a prosthetic leg? That would be "realism in shooters."

What we currently have is a joke; CoD is no more or less realistic than Doom, and is quite a bit slower and less colorful. People might have a problem with samey boring coverglued "modern war" shooter games, but what they do not have a problem with is "realism in shooters," because there isn't any.
 

Arslan Aladeen

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Trueflame said:
Because people use games as a means of escapism, and reality is hard and cold and brutal. No one wants to see what actually happens to body parts when they are hit with high velocity bullets, or to comprehend that the guy rushing from point A to point B and being a hero in a military scenario is actually going to be riddled with bullets.

That said, I don't know why people are so particularly antagonistic toward shooters that aim for such realism, when they applaud other games, like Dark Souls, for being extremely challenging, and complain about how gaming as a whole is being dumbed down. So maybe there is some kind of subconscious political angle to it, with sword and sorcery violence getting a pass, but gun violence being unacceptable and uncomfortable if it starts looking too real.
I think it's that players have more control over what goes on in a sword and sorcery type game versus a realistic shooter. In order to not get stabbed, I can use a bow and arrow, magic, sheild to block, parries and riposte, dodging, backstabs, strike with a longer weapon or just strike first. In order to not get shot, I have to avoid being seen, and to do that, I have to know where all the enemies are, and since I can't really do that all the time, there's an element of luck in play. Also, it seems that the realism has added systems and features in a game like Dark Souls, where it has taken away from shooters.
 

glider4

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Nothing wrong with realistic shooters as a concept. Heck my favorite game is Half Life 2. The problem is it seems that Everything is now a modern "realistic" shooter with cover based shooting and plenty of set pieces that take control away from the player which defeat's the point in playing a video game in the first place.
 

shootthebandit

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"Realistic" is such a loose term. Games like COD and battlefield are called realistic when they couldnt be further from the truth. The guns and weapons are real and its all based on a pseudo-present day so yeah its kinda realitic in the fact its a shooter based on real guns not space lasers etc

However we have games like flashpoint and Arma which gameplay wise are getting a lot closer to "realism". These games are still nowhere near reality because games are designed to be fun leisure activities. They are essentially toys/play-things. War is not fun in any sense of the word, sure servicemen/women are generally some of the most fun people to be around but war is still never fun and thats why a game by nature cannot be realistic

The reason fictional war makes great games is because its ideally the ultimate competition and tharmt is why competitive multiplayer shooters are great and popular
 

Rad Party God

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If I cant shoot demons with a lightning gun that also shoots shurikens, shit my pants while exploring irradiated abandoned laboratories, kill nazis and their supernatural experiments with a bazuka, shoot aliens with needle guns (and teabag them), sneak behind a north korean in the jungle/squid alien in New York or trying to kill and evade a horde of biomechanical aliens, quadrupedal skelletons and alien bulls in ancient egipcian ruins, then I might find it pretty boring to just play a gritty, brown "realistic" shooter.
 

optimusjamie

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I think part of the reason WW2 shooters like the original Medal of Honor, Battlefied 1942 and COD 1-3 became popular in the first place is that they (quite successfully, at that) emulated the PSEUDO-realism of films such as Saving Private Ryan and Enemy at the Gates. As far as I can tell, Modern Warfare, Battlefield 3-4 and Warfighter (pahahaha) are simply translating this to a present-day setting.

As for the OP, I don't think that adding elements of realism is a bad thing in itself. Tacking on pseudo-realistic features such as cover-based shooting, iron sights and grey industrial complexes in an attempt to try and attract COD players is a bad thing. An early version of Doom 4 was basically Modern Warfare with terrorists swapped for demons. That, I think, would have justified the use of nuclear weapons. It's bloody DOOM. I really shouldn't have to explain this to you at all.