Why do people hate the army?

[Yopaz]

Soldiers don't go to war. Soldiers are sent to war. People seem to think that if we didn't have soldiers we wouldn't have wars. I am a strong opponent of war and I am a pacifist, but I still respect soldiers for the duty they are doing.

You. You, I think I will like. We may disagree about the necessity of war, but at least you and I agree that blaming soldiers only is silly. Kudos.

Well, I don't think war is a necessity unless all other options have failed. Diplomacy is always a better solution because that opens for progress. After the first world war Germany was beaten and felt humiliated over getting the blame for there ever being a war. They fell into an economical despair and created a broken nation. Germany's pride was hurt and that created the country that Hitler could lead into another war. When the next war ended they focused more energy on creating a reason not to go to war rather than creating a nation too weak to go to war. Both UN and EU are results of this and I think that at least EU is important to avoid another European war since there's more worth in keeping peace rather than going to war. In a perfect world we wouldn't need war, but this world is far from perfect.

 

[orangeban]

I'm a pacifist, and it seems to me that a bunch of the wars the West keeps getting involved in are pointless, expensive and ultimately damaging. I'm not gonna hate on the individual soldiers, but I'm not a fan of the army in general. Plus, I really, really despise military propaganda, at my school we have a CCF which is clearly just an attempt to glorify the army and encourage kids to sign up. I really hate the CCF.

Edit: Note that while I don't hate individual soldiers, I don't really respect them either. Sure they're brave, but so is someone who kicks a rottweiler, you shouldn't necessarily respect them for that.

 

[rigabear]

Say you hate the amount of resources that are directed towards the military (and therefore not healthcare, poverty, etc), and the wars that the military carries out and the way their personnel carry themselves while on these wars.

If you hate these things then by extension you have excellent reasons to dislike the people who sign up to be part of that and perpetuate the system.

And this would apply even if every soldier who was part of this was a paragon of humanity. But this is evidently not the case; the negative stereotypes of soldiers that exist are not entirely baseless.

Also, the military is not the Government's lap-dog (by extension making the Government the actual 'evil'). It is a very close relationship - you've all heard the term 'military-industrial complex'; two sides of the same coin.

 

[chiefohara]

Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.

I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.

They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?

He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?

Did he happen to be an American? or French even?


If so its less about the Army or any military in general, its because you are a reservist.

Here in America, Reservists are essentially cheerleaders, I mean, really, if you are fit to be in the reserves, you are fit to be active duty.

however, there is a difference between the weekend warrior reservist and one who is proactive in the Military. Yet again, not knowing how it is with the Irish army, but reservist in the U.S. army can volunteer for assignments that Active Duty needs done, its given in order of seniority and skills needed/have, so most people skip over it if they are not an E-4 reservist.


But I digress, how do you solve the problem of someone's opinion? water-boarding seems to work. But honestly you cant really stop people from having opinions over something, getting into a fistfight over such trivial matters is even worse, befitting of a professional soldier, even if he only gets four full weeks of service a year.

Suck it up, hang out with fellow reservists, or stop drinking/going to that particular bar.


Personally, I have a cousin that wanted to join the Army, got turned down for some reason, so instead of working to fix that problem he became a massive anti-military person, so I just stopped talking to him, last I heard he was still working on getting a college degree for a job field that is not even hiring.

Ignoring people, while impolite, often does work.

Straight and to the point.

good advice.

thanks.

P.S. the guy was a fellow irishman

 

[crazyarms33]

That's a terrible example. moving money COULD be legitimate, you don't know. Your boss is not necessarily known for being unethical. If he is then I'm going to at least assign you some blame.

And being legally obligated is irrelevant. Why are they legally obligated? Because they gave away their autonomy. And they should take responsibility for that decision. And responsibility includes blame for every order you follow.

Sure those in charge should be blamed too. It's generally not so obvious who that was to the general public though, and blame isn't a commodity you can run out of anyway.

I think I misconstrued my point, and for that I apologize. I wasn't trying to argue that moving money was the ethical equivalent of what soldiers do, I was trying to point out that there is a chain of command that ultimately makes the call somewhere up the line, other than the soldiers/employee in my example. Yet the bottom level(the soldiers) get cast as the ultimate villain virtually 99% of the time. You used the word accountability which I really like, but where is the line between ITS ALL SOLDIERS and ITS NOT SOLDIERS, ITS ALL THE POLITICIANS! Obviously its not just one or the other, its pretty obvious we agree on that. So what percentage would you say? 50/50? 75/25? 1/99? I just ask out of curiosity.

I think that legal obligation DOES matter, because they surrender their "autonomy" as you say, to someone who is expected to make the correct decision. Much like in any white collar job where you sign a contract. There are certain things expected of you that you may personally disagree with. Once you sign it though, you're in until you quit or are fired. Unfortunately, soldiers don't have the option to quit without ruining their lives(a dishonorable discharge is no bueno) Don't get me wrong, I think they should damned well better know what they are signing up for before they even think about putting ink to paper. That being said, an army can't work where everyone has input, it would be a disaster. You have to have the guys who just do what they are told in order to be successful. And at least in America, the army can't just go "Whelp. It's Tuesday. Let's go start a war" (Officially anyway haha). It requires an Act of Congress AND Presidential approval. So I guess my ultimate question is, why is it we hear so much about the soldiers screw ups, but not the people who put them there?

 

[loc978]

when it comes down to UN troops, well...

That pretty much says what needs to be said.

However, the ineffectiveness of the UN's overarching strategy doesn't negate the personal sacrifices people make on their behalf. I know that better than most, since I carry lifelong crippling wounds from training, yet the injuries I received in combat (in Iraq, which ranks pretty high among the most ridiculously immoral wars in recent history) have healed quite completely. Not for the UN, mind you... but I understand the sacrifice.

 

[Roggen Bread]

every time I say I respect soldiers people rag on me and tell me that I'm a terrible person that should die in a hole.

you! you respect soldiers!! go die in a hole!!

I denied service in the army to do something more meaningful with my time (read: work in an ER for 9 months).
As I am German we used to HAVE to chose between going to the army or doing alternative civilian service (AVS). I chose the latter, because being trained for the first three months and sitting around doing frickin' nothing for the following 6 sounded like a waste of time.
A buddy of mine worked in the office for the commander in chief at his casern. He said there the whole day, refilling the printer every 1,5 hours (I admit, that was worst case).
In AVS I got the chance to actually do something. To help people in need. Also I learned a ton of stuff about the real world outside, a great deal about medicine and finally learned what I would want to study.

I think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are a giant pile of turd.
A waste of time, money and most important lifes of human beings. THis also is pretty much the public opion here in Germany. Please keep in mind we have to be all super pacifistic and social and shit since the 1940's.
This doesn't change, that I respect soldiers who really do something. Wo have to fight in overseas and get funny STDs.

So I guess, I'm going to join ToTaL LoLiGe in that hole now.

But I actually can't resent people who hate the military. Because, seriously. Who asked them to go in another country and mess everything up, "in order to bring democracy". Especially if it won't last 20 days after they leave the country?

 

[crazyarms33]

Well, I don't think war is a necessity unless all other options have failed. Diplomacy is always a better solution because that opens for progress. After the first world war Germany was beaten and felt humiliated over getting the blame for there ever being a war. They fell into an economical despair and created a broken nation. Germany's pride was hurt and that created the country that Hitler could lead into another war. When the next war ended they focused more energy on creating a reason not to go to war rather than creating a nation too weak to go to war. Both UN and EU are results of this and I think that at least EU is important to avoid another European war since there's more worth in keeping peace rather than going to war. In a perfect world we wouldn't need war, but this world is far from perfect.

I prefer to think along the lines of Theodore Roosevelt, who said "Walk softly and carry a big stick." I am all for diplomacy, assuming the two sides are up front with each other about what they want. Hey, I can dream, even if it is unrealistic. But it never hurts to be prepared, because historically speaking, there have been times when negotiation was not an option. Obviously I don't mean being ready for the next world war at all times, but I do believe a standing army that is good at what it does is a valuable asset for any nation, even at the negotiating table. As far as Germany post WWI I think the Allies got too caught up in blaming one party for the war, but to the victors go the spoils as the saying goes. And we all know how that turned out. Spoiler: Badly. I hope we could see an end to war, but I don't have that much faith in the nature of humanity.

 

[Sean Hollyman]

I don't really mind the army, as I know next to nothing about military shit lol

 

[chiefohara]

when it comes down to UN troops, well...

That pretty much says what needs to be said.

However, the ineffectiveness of the UN's overarching strategy doesn't negate the personal sacrifices people make on their behalf. I know that better than most, since I carry lifelong crippling wounds from training, yet the injuries I received in combat (in Iraq, which ranks pretty high among the most ridiculously immoral wars in recent history) have healed quite completely. Not for the UN, mind you... but I understand the sacrifice.

That's a powerful image .... but why is there a lion eating a carcass in front of cattle in the left bottom corner of the photo?

 

[Sarge034]

I hate the military.

Listen here. Your government doesn't like you. In fact, chances are your government is comprised of a bunch of fucking assholes. When you join the military, you are agreeing to take orders from a bunch of assholes. You are expressing willingness to go to another country and kill people on behalf of this group of assholes, simply because you were told to. I don't find that admirable. I find it extremely disturbing that many people believe those in military positions deserve extra respect by virtue of having a diminished capacity to empathise and think for themselves.

Yes, they risk their lives, but then so do people who drive while they're drunk. You don't call them heroes, even though they achieve about as much as anyone in the army- killing some civilians.

At least in the US they are agreeing to uphold the constitution, be faithful to the constitution, defend the US, and follow any orders that do not violate the UCMJ. So any orders that violate the UCMJ can be legally disobeyed.

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/oathofenlist.htm

As for killing civilians... It is an unfortunate fact of life that there will be unintended casualties. However, not everyone who appears to be a civilian when the cameras get there were actually civilians. Not to mention the unthinkable tactics our enemies use against us. Did you know that during the first gulf war women and children were made to stand in front of convoys to get them to stop? An IED would then be set off to destroy the first and last vehicle to create a kill box. Most times the front IED would kill the woman and children if they could not run fast enough. To combat this drivers were order to not stop for anything. This order can still be seen today on the footage early in the Iraq campaign when an IED would hit a vehicle and the convoy would just keep on going.

But who am I kidding? You have made up your mind and nothing I can say will get you to reconsider.

 

[Zhukov]

The army, eh?

Isn't that the organisation comprised entirely of people who volunteered for a job that involves either killing people or facilitating the killing of people at the behest of politicians?

Oh yeah.

 

[Liham]

Because they kill people for money?

 

[JoesshittyOs]

I hate the wars that they're forced into, but I respect the troops. Cliche, I know, but it's how I feel.

I've had a brother in the army, and I've considered joining the military as a pilot or a medic myself.

As for why people say they hate it? I assume that some people have trouble separating the war from the military, and assume they both go hand in hand.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

Because they kill people for money?

Please tell me you're joking.

 

[Yopaz]

I prefer to think along the lines of Theodore Roosevelt, who said "Walk softly and carry a big stick." I am all for diplomacy, assuming the two sides are up front with each other about what they want. Hey, I can dream, even if it is unrealistic. But it never hurts to be prepared, because historically speaking, there have been times when negotiation was not an option. Obviously I don't mean being ready for the next world war at all times, but I do believe a standing army that is good at what it does is a valuable asset for any nation, even at the negotiating table. As far as Germany post WWI I think the Allies got too caught up in blaming one party for the war, but to the victors go the spoils as the saying goes. And we all know how that turned out. Spoiler: Badly. I hope we could see an end to war, but I don't have that much faith in the nature of humanity.

Well, the beauty of having a big army is that negotiations get so much easier. If you negotiate from an equal or greater standing both parties of the negotiation knows that a violent solution will cost money, resources and lives on both sides. A treaty in this case would be more favourable than a war. The potential gain is probably bigger for war, yet the risk is bigger too. If one of the sides have a weak army and the other has a large army then the risk of a war is low and the gain is pretty big. While I don't like the necessity for an army, I can see it and I understand it.

I can't say I blame your lack of faith in the human nature. Nature is violent all over. You'll meet a lot of those who are against war who keeps telling you animals aren't violent. that is a lie. A stable population is believed to have about 30-50% violent, greedy and/or selfish individuals. A population of pacifists isn't stable, nor is a population of fighters. War isn't human nature. It's simply nature. I don't like it, but I wont ever deny it.

I don't know if you're done or not, but just in case I want to thank you for a stimulating and friendly debate on this subject.

 

[Dr. Mongo]

But I actually can't resent people who hate the military. Because, seriously. Who asked them to go in another country and mess everything up, "in order to bring democracy". Especially if it won't last 20 days after they leave the country?

As a fellow german I have to point out that the democracy in Germany actually did last longer than 20 days after it was braught to this country in the late 1940s.
A fact for which I am very thankful, I must say.

So, yeah, I do respect the army as an instrument that actually can bring peace and prosperity to a country.

I think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are a giant pile of turd.
A waste of time, money and most important lifes of human beings.

And then there's that. I cannot really resent people who do not like the army.
Yeah... I'm gonna go and sit in that hole.

 

[loc978]

when it comes down to UN troops, well...

Spoiler: snipped for space

That pretty much says what needs to be said.

However, the ineffectiveness of the UN's overarching strategy doesn't negate the personal sacrifices people make on their behalf. I know that better than most, since I carry lifelong crippling wounds from training, yet the injuries I received in combat (in Iraq, which ranks pretty high among the most ridiculously immoral wars in recent history) have healed quite completely. Not for the UN, mind you... but I understand the sacrifice.

That's a powerful image .... but why is there a lion eating a carcass in front of cattle in the left bottom corner of the photo?

Because that poor sumbitch was uselessly guarding a paddock full of animals for PETA? I honestly don't know, but I do know guys like that are more bored than I ever was guarding gates on training exercises for officers. Those motherfuckers just loved to waste my time.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Honestly the only issue I've had with them, aside from the occasionaly hooting dickhole who treats their uniform like a criticism shield, is that when their fellows do really, really fuck up, there never seems to be a lot of 'This man/woman is a disgrace for what they did and we no longer want them' or an issue gets blown out of proportion before their commanding officers can investigate it propperly and all sorts of shit goes down.

That guy a while ago (I think he was a Marine) who for some reason videotaped himself pissing on corpses. Now, I dig this guy isn't gonna feel too charitable about the people trying to shoot him, blow him up etc. Fair enough, but would it have killed the Marine Corps PR unit to have released a statement saying that this behaviour is unacceptable from our Marines and it will be investigated?

That might have calmed waters and then let his Commanding officer tear about a million strips off his hide or hand him over to the Military Police for a formal investigation and given the impression that as a professional force, these frat-boy antics are to be kept to a minimum.


I suppose the other thing is that Australians are different, we tend to be more sombre about our Armed Forces. We've always been proud of them, but it never reaches the same level of flag waving that is stereotypically seen in our American cousins.

On a related note, knowing we have many service members here, any of you lads in the Marines in that unit headed for Darwin?

 

[Popadoo]

I don't hate soldiers personally, I just hate wars in general. I guess if I were to hate anybody personally it would be guys who started the wars and sent out their armies.