Why do people hate the army?

[ablac]

We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.

 

[GundamSentinel]

When was the last time soldiers actually died in defense of their country?

Well the South Ossetia War for one, in 2008.

Yeah, but the Irish (like OP), Americans, or Dutch (like me), French, Germans, you name it, haven't had to defend their own country in decades.

 

[Iron Criterion]

Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.

I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.

They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?

He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?

Because everyone is an edgy internet bad-ass these days and there's hardly anything 'edgier' than slating the army for doing their job and protecting us, all from the comfort of your armchair.

Frankly I respect the army - to a point.

 

[Total LOLige]

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I know the difference between patriotism and nationalism, what I meant was that people that hate the army tend to view patriotism as nationalism. I should have been clearer.

 

[Roggen Bread]

The government is corrupt, yes, but the Taliban isn't much of a force nowdays. You have any number of petty warlords, tribal factions and criminal groups with lots of weapons fighting each other and ISAF troops (you could argue that the government is just one more of them), but they aren't the Taliban as existed before the war.

Oh, and they didn't purge Germany of Nazis that thoroughly. Very few of them were prosecuted for war crimes, a number of them ended up overseas, and there were issues with the history of the people involved in the 1972 games.

I'm no expert on the whole Afghanistan-Talbin buissness.
All I read in the newspapers (that is, the serious ones, not the boulevard press) is, that the immense influence of the Taliban is making it hard to fight them efficiently. The population is scared, they believe, that the Taliban will rise to power very very quickly, after the ISAF is gone, and will punish, and already do, any collaborateurs.There was this one US-Military paper that was leaked just some weeks ago. It said, that they assume, a civil war will break out pretty fast, and the taliban will seize power again.

On the Germany buissness. Well of course they didn't. You cannot watch into everyone's head and arrest if Nazi. And there are issues with people's histories even TODAY. Just look at Günther Grass and his poem. It's like 3-4 weeks ago.
But as a matter of fact, the Nazis vanished de facto from German politics. The party most to the right, that we tolerate here (and they've been struggling to ban it for decades) is the NPD. It is not even as right as the republicans are! It still is a bunch of brown scumbags. If they try to demonstrate with like 200 people there are THOUSANDS of people opposing them.

Bullshit. A civilian attacking a soldier isn't treated as a civilian. ISAF troops aren't supposed to kill civilians for the hell of it, but they are allowed to kill civilians as an unfortunate side effect of their mission, to say nothing of killing people attacking them.

Imagine a missile hitting, say, Khabul. 30 civ's die in the process. This would be a MAJOR scandal.
Would you like me to post a picture from Cologne or Dresden after the war? Or statistics of civilian fatalaties? This is NOTHING.
I am not saying, you should nuke down the whole country.
But it is a completely different kind of warfare. And say what you will. It is less effective in inducing fear of opposing the attacking forces.

By attacking I did not mean someone shooting at a soldier, or assaulting with a knife. I'm talking of throwing a rotten egg, a rock or insulting them. If you did that to an american soldier in the late 40's you would have been in pretty fucking huge trouble.

This is something, that goes unpunished today. (Still not saying, they should just shoot anyone, who looks at them funny)

 

[Iron Criterion]

We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.

You have to undergo a lot of training and mental reconditioning first you know. 99% of people who join the army do so to protect their people and nation. Only a small percentage of those will see combat on a regular basis, and an even smaller percentage will actually kill people.

 

[DJjaffacake]

When was the last time soldiers actually died in defense of their country?

Well the South Ossetia War for one, in 2008.

Yeah, but the Irish (like OP), Americans, or Dutch (like me), French, Germans, you name it, haven't had to defend their own country in decades.

True, but then, "When was the last time soldiers from a major western military power like the USA or Germany actually died in defence of their country?" would be a better question, since it doesn't generalise so much. Edit: And in defence of the Irish, their armed forces are tiny anyway.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I don't hate the military, I just dislike the glorification of it. To me, a soldier has a job like anyone else, I don't look up to them more than anyone else. Not all soldiers are heroes by definition, but I guess it puts them in a position where they have an opportunity to become heroes. The only time I begin to hate soldier is when they expect to be treated differently.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm no expert on the whole Afghanistan-Talbin buissness.
All I read in the newspapers (that is, the serious ones, not the boulevard press) is, that the immense influence of the Taliban is making it hard to fight them efficiently. The population is scared, they believe, that the Taliban will rise to power very very quickly, after the ISAF is gone, and will punish, and already do, any collaborateurs.There was this one US-Military paper that was leaked just some weeks ago. It said, that they assume, a civil war will break out pretty fast, and the taliban will seize power again.

Ah, well, that's because the word "Taliban" is now being applied to "anyone armed who opposes ISAF", both for political reasons, and because the situation is too complicated for a nice soundbite.

Mind you, the practical difference between the Taliban and certain other groups might be up for debate.

On the Germany buissness. Well of course they didn't. You cannot watch into everyone's head and arrest if Nazi. And there are issues with people's histories even TODAY. Just look at Günther Grass and his poem. It's like 3-4 weeks ago.
But as a matter of fact, the Nazis vanished de facto from German politics. The party most to the right, that we tolerate here (and they've been struggling to ban it for decades) is the NPD. It is not even as right as the republicans are! It still is a bunch of brown scumbags. If they try to demonstrate with like 200 people there are THOUSANDS of people opposing them.

Ah, you mean a purge of the politics, that's fair enough (though it wasn't as complete as it could have been, everyone was too worried about the next war with the USSR to concern themselves with the tail end of the last one).

Imagine a missile hitting, say, Khabul. 30 civ's die in the process. This would be a MAJOR scandal.
Would you like me to post a picture from Cologne or Dresden after the war? Or statistics of civilian fatalaties? This is NOTHING.
I am not saying, you should nuke down the whole country.
But it is a completely different kind of warfare. And say what you will. It is less effective in inducing fear of opposing the attacking forces.

By attacking I did not mean someone shooting at a soldier, or assaulting with a knife. I'm talking of throwing a rotten egg, a rock or insulting them. If you did that to an american soldier in the late 40's you would have been in pretty fucking huge trouble.

This is something, that goes unpunished today. (Still not saying, they should just shoot anyone, who looks at them funny)

Ah, ok, misunderstood there.

But, I'd challenge that it's less effective in causing fear. Simply upping the casualty count isn't enough, all it does is make the locals hate you, which is exactly what you don't want.

By comparison, in Vietnam, the US military killed massive amounts of civilians. Less than in places like Dresden, of course, but still very high. This didn't frighten their opponents into submission.

[small]As an aside, I woudln't recommened throwing rocks at US soldiers in Afghanistan. If they can see it's a rock, they almost certainly won't shoot you, but if they think it's a grenade, well...[/small]

The enemy in Afghanistan cannot function without the support of the locals, nor can ISAF cannot defeat them without it. It is absolutely essential for each side to gain their support, and undermine their support of the enemy. Committing atrocities against them is playing straight into your enemies hands...a decent way of getting the locals support is to provoke your enemy into attacking the civilians.

 

[Zhukov]

The army, eh?

Isn't that the organisation comprised entirely of people who volunteered for a job that involves either killing people or facilitating the killing of people at the behest of politicians?

Oh yeah.

I think you're getting them mixed up with assassins. The army does things like stabilising countries, protecting civilians, toppling tyrants etc.

Are you joking?

Dear God please tell me this man is joking.

 

[sabercrusader]

Now, I know this doesn't mean a whole lot, but I've been in an Army JROTC program for the last three years. My 1SGT served in Vietnam, and has given us vivid details about how he was treated, then I compare it to how they're treated today. Overall, soldiers today are treated so much better (in America) than they were in Vietnam. They can still be treated horribly though,and I don't know why. I'm not sure that they understand that the only reason they can speak out like that and voice their opinions are because we have soldiers fighting and dying for us to do so.

The military should really get more respect than they do. So should the police force and firefighters. They are all putting their lives on the line so we can live our lives as peacefully as possible.

 

[DJjaffacake]

The army, eh?

Isn't that the organisation comprised entirely of people who volunteered for a job that involves either killing people or facilitating the killing of people at the behest of politicians?

Oh yeah.

I think you're getting them mixed up with assassins. The army does things like stabilising countries, protecting civilians, toppling tyrants etc.

Are you joking?

Dear God please tell me this man is joking.

I never joke about such matters. (I do actually, but shut up)
But seriously, this does happen. I know it's hard to believe when you've convinced yourself it's all about dat luverly oil and dem nasty politicians are all selfish and greedy, but soldiers were sent to stabilise Kosovo and Sierra Leone and protect the civilians there. They also protect civilians in Afghanistan and toppled tyannical regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[IamQ]

I don't hate the army, I'm just not supporting them. I don't like wars (IRL that is. Fight all you want in movies/games/books.), but I'm not going to punch you in the face if you tell me you're going to join the army.

 

[ElPatron]

In Japan they view the military as tax thieves, with some justification.

So do a lot of Americans. The "Welfare Queens".

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The whole goddamned point of having armed forces is securing the integrity of a nation.

That includes taking down the government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution

Dear God please tell me this man is joking.

I refuse to respect anyone who makes their living by killing or wounding others,

Soldiers are trained murderers and the military is a war mongering hate machine

I'm going to kindly tell you to shush your opinions when you obviously haven't put a single SECOND of thought into the subject.

The military ends tomorrow. Who will save you if the bridge you are walking on collapses? No Navy divers to help you.

Or what about your ship sinking? No Air Force and no Coast Guard to save your ass this time.

It's easy to complain about the military when you OBVIOUSLY never had to depend on them. I'm glad, it means you never were in a possibly deadly situation. But it's not an excuse to be an oblivious critic because the military is the group of people that make sure you live safely so that you can spit your unfounded opinions.

How many lives have you saved? Because my father probably saved more people that you will ever save, participated in countless humanitarian missions and has done all kinds of Search & Rescue/Medvacs, etc.

It's a bad thing to wish evil on someone, but perhaps you need to dive into some cold water 200 miles away from the coast to freshed up your ideas about the military.

Because they're overglorified killers who do the government's dirty job whether we like it or not.

They are also the ones who do the "dirty job" of taking down oppressive governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution

Just saying, unless you think you can oppose the government and actually succeed don't talk shit about people you don't know personally. Hate to use buzzwords, but I have to say that post was an ignorant "blanket statement".

 

[ElPatron]

In Vietnam

Vietnam? You can't hold the military responsible. The US government tried the ingenious plan of letting politicians make war, which lead to the complete clusterfuck that we know as Vietnam.

I was watching live coverage of the Iraq war. An America soldier was firing blind over the top of a wall. I just remember thinking "He is not aiming. Anyone could get hit. What the hell. That is dangerous" (I was... Christ, Its been a long time, I was young).

An individual rifle is used for accurate single shot firing. The advent of the assault rifle allows for lighter weapons that will carry more ammo with the added benefit of controlled automatic fire.

Basically, a weapon is used in a precision fashion during regular combat, but when SHTF you just want to shoot downrange.

It suppresses the enemy, if civilians get hit it's because the enemy is using them as a human shield. "Anyone can get hit" is precisely what happens when you're in a firefight. Don't expect bullets to dodge you just because you're a civilian, be them aimed ot just shot in a general direction.

Because they kill people for money?

They are also the people that after getting really pissed kill traitors to the nation (totalitarian governments) free of charge.

 

[Thaluikhain]

In Vietnam

Vietnam? You can't hold the military responsible. The US government tried the ingenious plan of letting politicians make war, which lead to the complete clusterfuck that we know as Vietnam.

Firstly, that's totally missing the point of what I was saying.

Secondly, the US government did a good job of fucking things up, yes, but to a large extent so did the US military.

Westmoreland, for example, might have been a good choice for organising the next Korean War, but was a lousy choice for Vietnam, refusing to acknowledge that the enemy wasn't playing by his rules and certain that his plan was working.

The Australian forces and the US marines were willing and able to fight a proper counter insurgency and guerilla war, but the US army and commanders were not.

An individual rifle is used for accurate single shot firing. The advent of the assault rifle allows for lighter weapons that will carry more ammo with the added benefit of controlled automatic fire.

Basically, a weapon is used in a precision fashion during regular combat, but when SHTF you just want to shoot downrange.

It suppresses the enemy, if civilians get hit it's because the enemy is using them as a human shield. "Anyone can get hit" is precisely what happens when you're in a firefight. Don't expect bullets to dodge you just because you're a civilian, be them aimed ot just shot in a general direction.

Er, suppressing fire has to be aimed more or less at the enemy, doesn't it, which you can't do firing totally blind.

Having said that, I can imagine various reasons why the soldier might do that, though I don't imagine they'd come up that often. Without seeing teh footage it's hard to say.

Because they're overglorified killers who do the government's dirty job whether we like it or not.

They are also the ones who do the "dirty job" of taking down oppressive governments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution

Isn't that implicit in "whether we like it or not"? Not all the governments the US military has overthrown have been missed.

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Personally, I got called a troop-hater for simply not unilaterally supporting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and for not hating all AyRabs, so I tend to assume most of the "hate the troops" crap is overstated.

Yes. I hate the troops. I hate my two cousins, three uncles, and grandfather who have served. I hate like two dozen of my high school friends who are active service or recently out. Yes, I hate a couple of my closest buddies for being Army or Marines.

I HATE THE TROOPS! ALL BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU!

...That's what I normally get.

 

[ablac]

We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.

You have to undergo a lot of training and mental reconditioning first you know. 99% of people who join the army do so to protect their people and nation. Only a small percentage of those will see combat on a regular basis, and an even smaller percentage will actually kill people.

Yet soldiers go on killing sprees, shoot civilians who were blatantly non-threatening when there isnt even anything to suggest it was necessary (good example would be the video of, I think, Afghanistani journalists being gunned down via manned drone for meeting as a group when they report the truth, or the airstrike of al jazeera HQ. All done by soldiers who would have done none of the sort had they any form of morality/humanity). Most soldiers are there out of need for employment rather than patriotism, why do you think they are paid a ridiculously low wage? The army wants people thick enough to not question orders, if your smarter than that then you are the ones giving the orders and youve probably had your morality broken a long time ago. If patriotism is the reason then thats pretty sick, even if you arent killing yourself you are involved in the fighting and so are equally responsible, being willing to kill for oyur country doesnt make you a patriot it makes you a murderer with a flag. We call out those who fight for their religion or fight for countries who arent our friends, what truly differentiates them from our soldiers? Delivering death is not an act of patriotism, we do not accept that a man can kill another in any other walk of life so why do we here? I understand what you are trying to say but I still dont like the army and your reasons dont apply to my position.

 

[Strazdas]

It is not as complex as people often make it out to be.
Army is created in order to fight with force, agiasnt outside offence or attack outside source (for inside we got other professions, such as police, swat, you name it, altrough there are cases where army can interfere).
Being mainly fighting oriented they attract people who are mainly fighting oriented. Nature made it so those guys are mostly complete and utter idiots. This is partly because smart people realize that a good fight is the one you avoided. But we dont got so many of them.
Therefore, if army mainly have idiots in it, and people hate idiots, therefore army is hated by the people.
Secondly, armys main objective is to kill. Most people hate killing, therefore they hate army. Most people that love killing are either in army or in jail.
Thirdly, a concept of patriotizm. military is often praised for beign patriotic. smart people know that patritism is bad. therefore smart people hate the army.

Army, as a concept, in itself is not bad. Army, as a reality - is.

Personally, i dont think army is all bad or all good. i think there are both sides in this situation.

 

[Darkmantle]

Er, suppressing fire has to be aimed more or less at the enemy, doesn't it, which you can't do firing totally blind.

SNIP

Actually, that's pretty standard procedure. He no doubt wasn't firing totally "blind", like you seem to think. It's much more likely that he knew the position of the enemy combatants, either through previous looks or by hearing their weapons fire, and was spraying some ammo over his cover to make them duck, to give him time to get up and take an aimed shot.