Why do people reject evolution?

Dinwatr

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texanarob said:
The earth is demonstrably young using all scientific theories, other than radiometric dating.
Please explain why it was widely accepted--even by the religious zealots of the time--that the world was old a few centuries before the development of radiometric techinques.

Also, please briefly state how you know so much about radiometric dating. I'd like to know where to start showing you how wrong you are. For my part, I've taken several university classes (graduate level) on the topic and have used several radiometric dating methods on multiple industrial projects. I've done this professionally.

Radiometric dating (such as carbon dating) has never been demonstrated to be accurate,
This can only be called a lie. Radiometric dating relies upon the same principles as radioactive tracers in medicine--every time a doctor uses a radioactive tracer it amounts to a test of these principles. Also, radiometric dating has been, to a surprising extent corroborated by non-radiometric methods, such as varves, corals, bivalves, and tree rings. Then there are the natural reactors. I believe there are three of them on Earth, and they serve as good tests for this sort of thing.

and always seems to over estimate the known ages of specimens.
Please, please tell us the study you're citing as evidence of this. I have my suspicions, but I want you to put this noose around your neck yourself.

This is due to it's uniformitarian assumptions, where temperature, pressure and concentrations of chemicals are assumed to have been constant for extreme periods of time.
Again, this is a lie. Radiometric dating is actually fairly complicated, and done properly it's a means to test that theory. I was once given a list of radiometric dates, and their corresponding atmoic families and minerals sampled. From that (and a healthy dose of igenous stratigraphy) I was able to deduce multiple episodes of volcanic activity, including intrusions, actual volcanism (meaning the magma broke through the surface), and contact metamorphism (if you didn't see that coming, you didn't deserve to be in the class, but being able to pinpoint the max temperature was nice).

The concept you are so blithely ignoring here is closing temperature. Each mineral and each radioactive sequence has a particular temperature above which the atoms can more or less freely move out of the crystal structure. Given that radioactive decay usually alters the chemical nature of the crystal, the daughter isotopes tend to leave rather readily. Below that temperature, the atoms remain locked in as defects in the crystal structure (a common enough thing--crystals with defects are more stable over time than those without). This temperature can be surprisingly low--some of the more complex silicates have extremely low closing temperatures, as their structure provides what amount to pipelines out of the crystal, and uranium includes a radon phase, which is a gas. The closing temperature is frequently below the point where a mineral will metamporphose at all, and almost always well below the melting point.

You're also ignoring the fact that temperature and pressure have essentially no impact on radioactive decay rates. You simply can't squeeze the atoms together tight enough with crustal temperatures and pressures to impact the nucleous of the atoms. Concentrations can influence things, but that's where good old-fashioned stratigraphy comes in--NO ONE does radiometric dating without first doing a stratigraphic analysis.
 

Quaxar

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texanarob said:
The earth is demonstrably young using all scientific theories, other than radiometric dating.
All scientific theories except anything from biology, geology, astronomy, physics, ...

Also, citing Answers in Genesis is like using a neo-nazi website as a source about the holocaust. You can do it if their source bias make you feel good, but you can't expect anyone to take it seriously.
Personally, even opening this site makes me sick. Let me illustrate that with the last paragraph from your article's conclusions:
The age of the earth ultimately comes down to a matter of trust - it's a worldview issue. Will you trust what an all-knowing God says on the subject or will you trust imperfect man's assumptions and imaginations about the past that regularly are changing?
So even they say it isn't about facts, it's about either believing everything a book tells you to be absolute truth (despite obvious fallacies being right in there) or being a moron for having your own opinion that is based on best currently available evidence.

I am willing to listen to proper reasoned claims of a young earth. But please, let's keep some niveau.
 

evilneko

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Katatori-kun said:
Full disclosure: There's no way I'm reading 25 pages of this thread.


People disbelieve in evolution for three reasons:

1. Because when you get right down to it, evolution is pretty irrelevant to most of our daily lives. If you needed to believe in evolution to complete a shift in the spandex mines, everyone would believe in evolution.

2. Because disbelief in evolution is a tribal marker. When someone expresses that they don't believe in evolution, they're not really saying, "I've examined all the evidence and I don't find evolution to be an adequate description of how life on Earth came to be diverse," even if those are the literal words they're saying. The real message intended, regardless of the words being used, is, "please notice how devout and faithful in my religion I am." I have noticed people will generally go to enormous leaps to identify and "protect" their tribe, even when their tribe isn't under attack[footnote]See the visceral hatred for Anita Sarkeesian[/footnote].

3. Because science education in the US is often pretty poor. Science is often thought of as this grand collection of ideas that must be right because they are SCIENCE!, and not a process used to arrive at those ideas. And people on both sides of the "debate" are guilty. Every time someone argues that science is capital-T Truth and not merely the best, most objective model that humans can come up with at the moment, they fuel the "debate". They create the impression that you don't have to follow the scientific method in order to understand the world, you just have to believe the things other scientists tell you. They turn it into a matter of opinion, of belief. The same thing happens every time someone tries to appeal some trumped up appeal to evolutionary psychology to explain what they want to be true without bothering to do the experiment to collect evidence for their beliefs.
Holy shit Katatori-kun is back!
 

Dinwatr

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Good point about AIG, Quaxar. I'd only add one point: Unless God is the one doing the typing, their argument is self-refuting. We're dealing with humans in both cases--but in one case you have humans saying "Here's the evidence. Feel free to check it yourself" and in the other we have humans saying "GOD WILLS IT! Who are YOU to question the Almighty? How DARE you question me--I mean, God?!"
 

Mylo Cannard

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So there is no God? I see... Then there couldn't be right or wrong, no guilt, no shame, no consequences... And if that is true then it should be OK for you to sleep with or kill your mother... Or your brother, Or a chicken... or an ape... Who's to say that's wrong using your belief system of "There is No GOD"... Oh and remind us again of your "Scientific" explanation of the universe's creation.... Let's see, there was nothing, then for no reason or explanation everything that was to make up our universe just appeared out of nowhere and for no reason... like "Magic"! excuse me, like "The Big Bang"... Then there were hot gasses and plasma that eventually condensed and turned into human beings... Have I missed anything? And I'm the "Fool" for beleiving in God and his son Jesus? If you say so... As a Christian I know not to sleep with or murder my mother... Reason being it's clearly pointed out in the Bible... Now remind us again, which set of morales and principles do you adhere too and what was the source of that information that you use to conduct your life?
 

Mylo Cannard

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Evolution... Of course... Can you point out to me exactly when monkeys turned into humans? You know, the DNA evidence? Or does it NOT exist? Also, Why didn't the rest of the apes "Evolve"? Or better yet remind us again how swamp gas turned into every living thing on the planet? Anything? "Well there was this swamp gas stuff, then one day it decided it wanted to be alive... So "Poof" there you go... Then the "Alive swamp gas" decided it wanted to see... Nevermind it had no idea what sight was it just wanted to see. So of course poof, it grew eyebsalls! That's some pretty amazing and talented swamp gas huh? Then it decided it wanted to walk on land so it turned itself into a crawly thing a majig... Then the thing a majig decided it was "Lonely" so it split itself into two thing a majigs... Wow that "evolution" is surely all powerful stuff...
 

Quaxar

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Mylo Cannard said:
Evolution... Of course... Can you point out to me exactly when monkeys turned into humans? You know, the DNA evidence? Or does it NOT exist? Also, Why didn't the rest of the apes "Evolve"? Or better yet remind us again how swamp gas turned into every living thing on the planet? Anything? "Well there was this swamp gas stuff, then one day it decided it wanted to be alive... So "Poof" there you go... Then the "Alive swamp gas" decided it wanted to see... Nevermind it had no idea what sight was it just wanted to see. So of course poof, it grew eyebsalls! That's some pretty amazing and talented swamp gas huh? Then it decided it wanted to walk on land so it turned itself into a crawly thing a majig... Then the thing a majig decided it was "Lonely" so it split itself into two thing a majigs... Wow that "evolution" is surely all powerful stuff...
Your first two posts on this site are two majorly uninformed and/or ignorant rants against established science clearly already debated multiple times in this very thread? Really?
I appreciate darkstarangel, at least he took the time to thoroughly inform himself before coming to a conclusion neither I nor mainstream science particularly agree with. You on the other hand sound like a Kent Hovind script, riddled with outrageous claims so far away from reality not even Hubble could find it.
 

Epic Bear Man

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Well it's just as you said; it conflicts with beliefs. It's the main reason we also still have issues with abortion, as an example. There's very few people who aren't religious or strongly religious that are pro-life (not saying it doesn't exist, just it's few and far between).

However, abortion's a different subject, so let me move back on point. Having grown up a Protestant (and I say that because my mother would always switch churches. We went to a Catholic one for a while, then the Salvation Army, then a Baptist church, etc.), I'll use Christianity as my examples, since it's the religion I know the most about.

As you know, the story of human creation in Christianity stems from Adam and Eve; the first two humans. This states that Adam was made from dust (an adaption of Adapa from the early Mesopotamian mythos), and Eve from Adam's ribcage. When we look at this from a literal perspective rather than say, a symbolic perspective, it implies man was directly created from the dust and thus the idea that we previously came from a "lesser" organism (I say lesser because of how some people view animals and humans as different; I'll discuss this later in my post) would imply that this section of the Tanakh/Bible was wrong, which would also imply that the book is fallible in nature.

And even if we did take this from a symbolic perspective, it bears the issue of man is an animal. The Tanakh/Bible states that animals do not have spirits/souls, and again this would either make the book fallible again, or it would at the very least imply we're not as special as we think we are.
 

DJjaffacake

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Mylo Cannard said:
So there is no God? I see... Then there couldn't be right or wrong, no guilt, no shame, no consequences...
Because of course, the only reason you would behave yourself is because you don't want bad shit to happen, not because you actually just don't want to be a dickhead.

And if that is true then it should be OK for you to sleep with or kill your mother... Or your brother, Or a chicken... or an ape...
Why?

Who's to say that's wrong using your belief system of "There is No GOD"...
a) Accepting evolution and being religious are not mutually exclusive
b) It's easy: will your actions harm other people? If yes, don't do it.

Oh and remind us again of your "Scientific" explanation of the universe's creation.... Let's see, there was nothing, then for no reason or explanation everything that was to make up our universe just appeared out of nowhere and for no reason... like "Magic"! excuse me, like "The Big Bang"... Then there were hot gasses and plasma that eventually condensed and turned into human beings... Have I missed anything?
Actually, all matter and all the laws of the universe were condensed into one tiny spot. then, for reasons unknown, everything began to expand. Subatomic particles formed in a fraction of a second, but atoms took around a hundred seconds to form. As the Universe continued to expand, it cooled, and gravity drew atoms together to form stars, planets, etc. And yes, eventually the atoms became humans, though no one really knows why.

And I'm the "Fool" for beleiving in God and his son Jesus? If you say so...
That rather depends on what evidence you base your belief.

As a Christian I know not to sleep with or murder my mother... Reason being it's clearly pointed out in the Bible... Now remind us again, which set of morales and principles do you adhere too and what was the source of that information that you use to conduct your life?
As I said, I adhere to the principle that you shouldn't do something that would hurt other people if it's at all avoidable.

Mylo Cannard said:
Evolution... Of course... Can you point out to me exactly when monkeys turned into humans? You know, the DNA evidence? Or does it NOT exist?
Monkeys didn't evolve into humans. Apes did. Monkeys are Simians.

Also, Why didn't the rest of the apes "Evolve"?
Why would they? Unless all species of apes in the world spontaneously experienced the same genetic mutation they wouldn't evolve.

Or better yet remind us again how swamp gas turned into every living thing on the planet? Anything? "Well there was this swamp gas stuff, then one day it decided it wanted to be alive... So "Poof" there you go...
There is no single accepted model of abiogenesis. One hypothesis is that the right combination of chemicals could produce amino acids, the basic building blocks of DNA, if catalysed by electrical activity.

Then the "Alive swamp gas" decided it wanted to see...
I doubt that, swamp gas isn't known for its wild imagination. Or indeed, having a brain.

Nevermind it had no idea what sight was it just wanted to see. So of course poof, it grew eyebsalls! That's some pretty amazing and talented swamp gas huh? Then it decided it wanted to walk on land so it turned itself into a crawly thing a majig... Then the thing a majig decided it was "Lonely" so it split itself into two thing a majigs... Wow that "evolution" is surely all powerful stuff...
That's not how evolution works. Simply put, mistakes are occasionally made in the DNA replication process. Usually, these have no effect, often because they are in the random strings of gibberish that were clearly added to our DNA by an intelligent being for shits and giggles. However, occasionally they have an effect, either positive, negative, or benign. An example of a benign mutation would be green eyes; they usually stay in the genepool but do not replace existing characteristics. Negative mutations, such as deformities, are usually removed as the unfortunate mutant is less likely to reproduce. Positive mutations, such as increased brainpower, usually spread throughout the species as the mutant is more likely to reproduce.

The wikipedia page [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution] is much more detailed, but may be a touch hard to understand.
 

evilneko

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Quaxar said:
Mylo Cannard said:
Evolution... Of course... Can you point out to me exactly when monkeys turned into humans? You know, the DNA evidence? Or does it NOT exist? Also, Why didn't the rest of the apes "Evolve"? Or better yet remind us again how swamp gas turned into every living thing on the planet? Anything? "Well there was this swamp gas stuff, then one day it decided it wanted to be alive... So "Poof" there you go... Then the "Alive swamp gas" decided it wanted to see... Nevermind it had no idea what sight was it just wanted to see. So of course poof, it grew eyebsalls! That's some pretty amazing and talented swamp gas huh? Then it decided it wanted to walk on land so it turned itself into a crawly thing a majig... Then the thing a majig decided it was "Lonely" so it split itself into two thing a majigs... Wow that "evolution" is surely all powerful stuff...
Your first two posts on this site are two majorly uninformed and/or ignorant rants against established science clearly already debated multiple times in this very thread? Really?
I appreciate darkstarangel, at least he took the time to thoroughly inform himself before coming to a conclusion neither I nor mainstream science particularly agree with. You on the other hand sound like a Kent Hovind script, riddled with outrageous claims so far away from reality not even Hubble could find it.
I donno if he got that crap from Hovind. Heck, I don't think I've ever heard the "swamp gas" thing. That was kinda funny, actually.

Ooh ooh, maybe it's Ray "Banana Man" Comfort's latest gag! No, wait--more like Kirk "Ray's Butt Buddy" Cameron. I think the Crocoduck was his idea, so he's got a bit more of a comedic streak than Comfort.
 

Olrod

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If the only reason you DON'T go around killing and stealing it because it tells you not to in a book, then you're not really a moral person.

The rest of us don't go around killing and stealing simply because it isn't nice.