Why do people think Morrowind is so superior to Oblivion?

Right Hook

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Strife17O7 said:
(pardon to the rest, but I've got some nerd-rage to target at the OP.)Ahhmmmm.....because it just is? Because it -was- a challenge even at its basic difficulty setting. It felt like it was actually -worth- exploring every single cave/fortress/tower/dungeon on Vvardenfel, because nearly each one of them offered something new & unique to either see, obtain, or kill. You getting to each and every place also felt like an accomplishment in and of itself because you couldn't simply fast-travel to any location you'd seen already. When you went from one town to the other across the island, you had to put some thought into just exactly how you were going to get there and in some cases, what you would need to bring with you to make it there intact. In IV, the process was ridiculously simple, and fast-travel made all of Cyrodill seem so small that you could fit five of it inside just the island of Vvardenfel, to say nothing of the rest of Morrowind as represented in Daggerfall.
Then there's the part where the character's role felt more important to me personally, as they were plucked from obscurity only to find out that it was pre-ordained that he/she was destined for greatness, rather than to have your character's role seem comparatively contrived from the outset as in Oblivion. I mean...your character has no further initial background than one old leader's dream. In Morrowind, you're the legendary fulfillment of an age-old prophecy so profound that the political & religious leaders of an entire nation went to great length to cover it up as heretical myth in order to keep the truth behind it hidden for their own benefit.

If you're having trouble figuring out where to go on-mission, bleeding -DO- read the journal entry for it. It's there for a reason as it's always been. You can read, can't you? I mean...how would you have even found this forum otherwise. So Oblivion is better because it's so obvious and simple that it practically does everything for you? Because it's got higher-res textures/geometry? Tough tits.

And for your information, I -did- finally go back to TESIII after having played through IV and it felt like a breath of fresh air by comparison.

/nerd rage
Wow, normally I'd be offended by your post but I understand your passion for the game. I wasn't saying Oblivion was a better game though, I was just saying I enjoyed it more, especially seeing as I had played it before I played Morrowind, obviously I can read (duh), I just thought the journal reading was an unnecessary annoyance after I had already been used to the hand holding Oblivion gives you. I liked the simpler system of Oblivion because I hadn't previously been exposed to Morrowind, maybe if I had I'd be raging in favor of Morrowind just like you. I'm getting a good picture of why a lot of people liked it more, which was the intent of this post. It's honestly starting to seem like a "you had to be there" sort of thing, haha.
 

Ruwrak

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Matthew94 said:
Ok, prepared to get schooled :p I kid

EDIT This isn't nostalgia, I played TES III after TES IV

More quests
More guilds
Better plot
Longer plot
Plot actually gives useful items
Varied areas not just forest and frosty hills
Cliff racers
The use of text means there is at least 4x the dialogue
Quest Arrow doesn't hold your hand throughout the entire game
More Spells eg flying
More items and type of items
You can't get the the top of each guild with 1 class (oblivion my swordsman became the leader of the mages guild, can't happen in TES III without proper skills)
You can fight and kill gods for the lulz
There are no unkillable characters
Loot isn't random and doesn't scale to your level
The whole world is alien and not 1/2 normal animals like TES IV
Better fast travel system
Good world politics

Maybe I'll add more later

EDIT Get the GOTY version for an oblivion style journal which is essential.
This, on top of the fact the story was deeper, better worked out, longer, the world was more immersive and you felt like a god after yo ukilled ... erm.. well a god. So I guess that would make you a god.
 

Izzy1320

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Okay, let me apologize for what may seem to be a particularly long and talkative reply to something that should probably take only a few sentences, at most. Morrowind was actually the first real game I played. Hell, it was, and remains to this day, my mother's favorite game, and she remains the woman who refuses to allow any type of game console in the house aside from the computer (which is now a mac). Admittedly, when I first played Morrowind, me and my brother had fun cheating through the game, but I went back to it a few months later and decided to try it without the little aid of cheating assistance. What I found was actually a much more enriching experience. I'm going to try to break this down into separate topics to make this easier to understand (and for me to write as well.)
Morrowind was not a game I played for the combat. It was, and remains to this day, the one complaint I have with the game. Not because of a lack of variety. The combat had more variety than almost any other game out there. There are spears, pole arms, bows and arrows, throwing stars (more games need these, honestly), throwing knives, swords, axes, hammers, knives, short swords, and I'm certain that there are things that I've left off this list, as I haven't even begun to go into the amount of various magical options there were when it came to combat. Combat was the one thing that actually frustrated me. This wasn't all the time, trust me. There were times when fighting an enemy felt almost natural as I swung and hit. Then there were the times (oh, so many times...) that I found myself fighting a cliff racer, swinging wildly at the wildly cawing beast (that sound was the bane of any intrepid Vvardenfell adventurer). In Oblivion, the combat was only better because you hit what you were aiming at. The ability you had in the weapon still contributed to the damage, but at least not the hit chance anymore. What was lost, though, was the variety. Many of the weapons were lost, and what we got in return felt more like standard fantasy RPG combat than the cocktail of various combat styles that had been Morrowind's tantalizing arsenal.
The bread and butter of Morrowind was it's lore. I feel that most of the people who put it down after a short period of playing were unaware of the amount of time that went into designing that game's lore, its universe. For an example of what I mean, take a look at the books section of the Morrowind wiki ([link]http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Books[/link]). Try reading some of the documents, and just think about the amount of time that had to be placed into every inch of the game's world. Morrowind was not a utopian world. There were troubles, there were dangers. Slavery still ran rampant across the island (and yes, there was a portion where you could buy one). The dark elves that called the island home were being forced away from their homeland, pressed out by the oppressive imperials and their legion. What we had when we stepped into Morrowind was a world vastly different from our own, affected by the whim of gods both tangible and elusive. The main character in this world felt much as any other person would have. They (we) felt lost at our first steps, a freshly released prisoner with little or no ability to comprehend the vast continent of Vvardenfell. To do so, we had to talk to the NPCs within the game, those characters who told us things about the world. They pointed us to the world's travel systems, the silt striders or the teleporting mages in the Mages Guilds (there were also ships, but those were one of the least used). They told us about the troubles in the north, if we had the Bloodmoon expansion. We had to find our way without our hand being held and it was actually different.
Then came Oblivion. I have always labeled Oblivion as a 'console' game. Yes, Morrowind came out on the Xbox, but at its heart, it has always been a game for computers. The simplification built into Oblivion changed it, and for many people, this change was not for the better. Oblivion had a fast travel system, but different from Morrowind's fast travel system, which was built into the game's lore and world, it was part of the menu system, which set it aside from the gameplay and made it feel segregated and apart. It encouraged people to simply use it rather than explore the world. Morrowind, you had to travel through the world in order to complete almost all of the quests. Sure, the journal wasn't the most organized system for tracking quests, but it felt more...real than the system that Oblivion had. I feel like a nit picker here, but the Oblivion quest pointers always made it a little annoying for me when compared to the Morrowind 'ask for directions' method. It forced players to interact with the world instead of skipping around it like some sort of teleporting god that could flit from place to place and ignore the distractions along the way. On the way to any Morrowind destination, you were almost bound to run into some dungeon or another, and often felt compelled to duck into it simply to see what loot or monsters there were. Admittedly, this was sometimes because you forgot the name of the dungeon you were looking for, but that could be overlooked.
Now the setting. This may sound like a repetition of many other arguments, but Morrowind was different. Certainly, some of the most generic fantasy enemies were there, such as skeletons, but the other monsters were different. From beasts, such as Nix Hounds and Cliff Racers, to daedra, the Atronachs and other summonable creatures. From the Dwemer creations to the ash creatures to the various species of Kwama colonies, each one of them was radically different, and remains so, from the creatures in any other game to date. The races, Dunmer, Dwemer, Bosmer, Khajitt, and Argonian, as well as the various sects of humanity, drew from a culture largely their own. Admittedly, Nords were Nordic, but certain concessions could be drawn for that. (For those of you wondering why Dwemer was included there, despite not being one of the playable races, there was one in the game, the last surviving member of his kind, and yes, you could kill him if you wanted to be a dick...extinction ftw.). When we drag this to Oblivion, the culture and the history of the various races seems to have been almost forgotten. They live together, they talk together, and they completely forget about the various tensions between them. Yes, Oblivion does have a deep and varied history, but there is almost no incentive in game to delve into that history. The ruins and temples around the landscape were simply that, and we didn't really wonder why all of the Akaviri and the Aleid were gone. Much of the developers' creativity was therefore lost, as players ignored the history they had built into their world. In Morrowind, the main quest was intricately tied to the history of the world. If you don't know who the Nerevarine is, I won't really place any spoilers here, but Nerevar is a powerful name in Morrowind's past, as he is one of the gods, one of the lost deities. Very few of them remain, among them being Vivec (also a part of the main quest), and Almalexia (part of the tribunal expansion) remain within the world.
Drawing off of the setting, we have the world. Tamriel is, for lack of a better description, a fantasy cliché. Trees, forests, and castle-like towns. Vvardenfell is completely and utterly different. We have trees that look like giant mushrooms, ash deserts were ghouls and corprus monsters roam, and a city made out of a giant crab shell. (god, I loved just looking at that). The nomad tribes that have camps placed around the island serve as reminders of the history that the Dunmer race remembers. Ancient daedric and dwemer ruins litter the landscape, lending a taste to the history in the tomes and lore of the world.
Finally, and not because I'm out of discussion, but because my hands are starting to hurt from typing so much in fifteen minutes, we have the factions. In Oblivion, each one of the various factions feels so different and apart from each other that you simply skip from one to the other without ramifications. In Oblivion, the factions actually have interactions with each other. For example, the thieves guild and the fighters guild are in a continuing feud, which can, by the players actions, either be intensified or laid aside. Yes, it is possible, through some very very careful timing, rise to the top of both of them, but along most tracks, one must choose between one or the other. The Morag Tong, the Mages Guild, and all of the various houses are usually interwoven and connected in various ways, and it is usually difficult to play in more than one because of the different requirements for each of them. In oblivion, one can fight their way through the mages guild, fight their way through most of the thieves guild, fight their way through the fighters guild, and then fight through the dark brotherhood for fun. Sure, some sections require more finesse, such as some portions of the thieves guild, but it rarely requires any significant experience in the skills attributed to whatever guild you're playing through at the time.
I'm not going to say anything else here, and I realize that several arguments above seem one sided because of the short amount of time I put into this, but I hope that this represents my beliefs adequately enough to be put up here.

-Izzy
The Artist Who Paints With Words
 

YawningAngel

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Shotgun Guy said:
This is my first forum post on the Escapist, so let me know if I did something wrong. Anyway, I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I am genuinely curious.

I was introduced to the Elder Scrolls through Oblivion, I eventually came to love it, got all the achievements for it and in my eager anticipation for Skyrim I picked up a copy of Morrowind a few months ago. As far as I can tell it is quite a bit like Oblivion (obviously with worse graphics and animations but those can be forgiven if the gameplay and story are superior). I've had a lot of trouble getting into it, the quest are hard to do and using the journal to find out what you need to do is horrible, I have like 40 pages of random finished and unfinished quest, with no real way to discern where I need to go for a lot of them. The NPC's don't talk, sure there might be a lot of them but they all pretty much say have the same lines in each town. Personally, I think this might be a case of nostalgia, you like it more because you remember it more fondly and that colors your current opinion of the game.

I'll admit Oblivion wasn't perfect, especially having to shut those gates, ugh. But what they added just seems to go so above and beyond what Morrowind had. So, in your opinion which is better? Why do you feel that way?

Oh and I think Skyrim will be my new favorite, 5 days!!! :)
Because Morrowind is MASSIVE. The game isn't bad on a technological basis, but what people loved it for was its depth.
 

ultrachicken

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ianeddy44 said:
ultrachicken said:
Morrowind's entire world is brown,
There was a reason the land was mostly bland, and it was because the entire province was afflicted by a terrible blight which was responsible for killing lots of things. Especially near the centre of the province (around Red Mountain) the land was very dead.
I know that, as I have played the game. The problem is that none of that juicy story justification solves the problem of the world being boring as hell to look at.
 

Right Hook

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Aidinthel said:
Shotgun Guy said:
Anyway, your playtime estimate is way off, there is definitely more than 10 hours of gameplay in Oblivion. That's like saying Morrowind only has a playtime of seven minutes just because some guy found a way to glitch his way to the end.
That's not an estimate. That's how long I played before getting bored.
lmao fair enough.
 

Signa

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Exterminas said:
I love how people always state that Oblivion had the suprerior combat system.

The combat systems in these games were exactly the same, expect for one thing: Where Morrowind had the possibility to miss with an attack, Oblivion scaled down the damage each hit caused to compensate for a character's low skill.

That's it.

Nothing else was different.
Which I will argue was a better system, because failure is a staple consequence in a RPG. Taking out the chance of failure completely castrated Oblivion for me.

OT: I'm too tired to do a full post on this, to answer the question in the OP: EVERYTHING.

There was nothing like getting off onto a strange island and not being able to recognize anything. Meeting your first Nix-hound and barely surviving, only to come across a Kwama forager and panicking because you don't know how hard you are going to be raped by the creature was just out of aggro range was a thrilling experience. In Oblivion, meeting a wolf followed by a deer just didn't have nearly the same impact. And even though that's the only thing I'm going to cite in this post, Morrowind granted experiences like that throughout the entire game, just as Oblivion continued with its own initial example.

I will also point out that the skill system allowed you to play a certain way, and then have your character start succeeding in acting the way you wanted him to. Oblivion just had your character always succeed, no matter what, so you felt cheated of the experience of bettering your character.

So yeah, I realized that I threw that word around a lot: Experience. Morrowind is just a better experience.
 

Right Hook

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Jovip said:
I got into the elderscrolls, ah, wait for this. Arena. Thats right, the first game. I completed that game (granted with little to no understanding of what the hell was going on when i was 6) Then i beat daggerfall few years later.

Then came morrowind, oh morrowwind. Now, it is understandable to those who picked up the series at this game to become truely in love with the whimsical settings and surreal area. But for me it just didn't do it. The terrible interface made me want to viciously punch myself in the head with a running belt sander and the open world was something of a Tolkien-esque acid trip. That is to say i didn't enjoy it. I was dreadfully bored the entire time and sure there was alot of stuff, and i mean alot i could be playing this from the second i picked it up back in 2002 and still be finishing off sidequests today. However, i wouldn't because it would be a waste of time.

Then oblivion came and i fell back in love with the series. But let me explain to you why this is, and it may just be my preference. I enjoy the role playing, and deep immersive gameplay as much as we all do. The ability to do things almost any way you can think of. it's great. i love it. But the weird thing i find about immersion is you cannot be immersed in something that is completely foreign. Which is why to me morrowind never works. however in oblivion there was a inkling of relatability. there were deer and wolves, things we could see. the world felt medievil not complety fantasy based which i loved, i enjoyed being a hunter running around the forests killing animals skinning them and hopefully bringing enough back to buy a room for the night. it was awesome.

However, whenever i was forced to go into a cave or oblivion gate i instantly remembered i was playing a game. I didn't like that. granted i still had a shitload of fun killing daedra and skeletons, casting my magics everywhere. i was just aware i was playing a game.

My point is this, morrowwind is most likely nostalga. As when i compare morrowind to oblivion i see quality over quantity. This is just my oppinion, but i believe oblivion is the better game, and hopefully skyrim will surpass that. While morrowwind is just an acid trip on medievil realism in a dark alley.
I find this really interesting seeing as you have played them all starting with Arena, I don't think many people can say that (I certainly can't). You seem like the type of player who'd back up Morrowind no question for this very reason. Which I think lends my nostalgia idea at least a little credit, by no means am I saying that's all it is, I just think it plays a role. You found Daggerfall and Arena easier to pick up than Morrowind? I would have figured it would be even harder to play those ones, interesting.
 

Lukeje

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Because Morrowind wasn't boring? I don't know what it was about it, but I just couldn't get into Oblivion.
 

Wayneguard

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ultrachicken said:
Wayneguard said:
ultrachicken said:
Morrowind's entire world is brown

And honestly, did anyone see ANYTHING like
in Oblivion? The answer is no... you didn't.

To me, Morrowind is one of the richest and most unique fantasy worlds ever created. The generic fantasy aspects are kept to a minimum while the aspects unique to Morrowind (Giant mushroom trees towering over the lush ascadian isles, volcanic sulfur vents protruding from the burnt, ash-laden wastes of Molag Amur, etc) are pushed to the forefront. Morrowind just has a great, great setting.
Interesting how you chose to show a screenshot from the Ascadian Isles, pretty much the only region with green in it, to prove that the game isn't brown, and then showed a screenshot that was entirely brown.

The only way in which Morrowind was "unique" was the huge fungus they scattered across the place, the structures built from the shells of animals, and Vivec. Vivec was genuinely unique, but most of the rest has been done in other RPGs plenty, just not usually in Western ones. Though Morrowind does deserve props for its weird creatures.
The existance of one green region does not preclude the existance of regions with other color palettes and themes. Molag Amur is covered in black volcanic ash. Bitter Coast is sickly green. Red Mountain is... Red. Your generalization of the color palette is wrong, sera.
 

teebeeohh

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because it has more content, doesn't hold my hand and is not copy-pasted english countryside around a lake.

edit: it also let me kill gods.
 

Right Hook

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JC175 said:
For me, I feel that Morrowind was more immersive. There are obvious critiques you can tack onto both games - Morrowind's combat is quite horrendous, Oblivion's leveling is fundamentally broken, etc - but for me Morrowind just felt more alive.

A lot of it comes down to the leveling issues in Oblivion, I'll admit. The fact that if you didn't plan ahead in Morrowind you were likely to be slaughtered by a Daedra felt a lot more real to me, as did the presence of fantastic non-leveled gear from day one in game. Granted, the vast majority of this gear was either ridiculously hard to find, steal, or fight your way to; but it was there and available if you put enough effort into it. Travel options were a big thing too - as convenient as fast-travel is, it feels artificial and limits your exploration of the world.

Plus, you never felt quite as much of a badass in Oblivion as you did in Morrowind. If you leveled your acrobatics up to 100, you could leap over buildings. Find the Boots of Blinding Speed? Use a resist magic spell to counter the blind effect, run at light speed, profit. Want to enchant a constant effect restore health/fortify strength cuirass? Buff your intelligence into the thousands by stacking alchemy potions and away you go. I'm sure the majority of these things were intended by the developers, but in either way it felt like you were beating the game somehow. Oblivion managed to restrict that feeling.

And just to mention too, I played Morrowind for the first time about a year and a half ago, before I played Oblivion. I've put about 180hrs into Morrowind and its expansions, and about 130 into Oblivion.

EDIT: To add though, Morrowind is ridiculously hard on a first-timer. I remember being completely overwhelmed by the content and organisation in regards to items, let alone the world itself. My first ten minutes in game consisted of a mind-bending trip to the general store in Seyda Neen and trying to work out how the fuck to interpret the scrolls for sale.

But it's well worth the wait, everything does click eventually. Sorry to hear you bought it vanilla though, because the vanilla journal is a mega-*****. Plus, Bloodmoon is a fantastic expansion - Tribunal? Not so much.
Really good argument.
 

Right Hook

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Izzy1320 said:
Okay, let me apologize for what may seem to be a particularly long and talkative reply to something that should probably take only a few sentences, at most.
No need to apologize, thank you for the long, informative post :)
 

Savryc

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The opening theme alone is enough to ensure I'll never stop loving Morrowind. Hum along with me now men and mer.

Dum. Dum dum. Dum dum. Dum dum...

 

Strife17O7

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Mordekaien said:
Matthew94 said:
The whole world is alien and not 1/2 normal animals like TES IV.
There were rats, don't you forget them rats! ;)

OT: It was better in terms of options it gave me to shape my character... that and noone held my hands during quests...
Well-said.
 

bpm195

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Morrowind is to Oblivion as the LOTR books are to the LOTR movies. The books may be better than the movies, but you have to invest a lot more time to get to the pay off. If you're immersed and enjoying it then the depth seems like a great addition, but if you aren't deeply into every facet of it the depth will drown you in boredom.

Exterminas said:
I love how people always state that Oblivion had the suprerior combat system.

The combat systems in these games were exactly the same, expect for one thing: Where Morrowind had the possibility to miss with an attack, Oblivion scaled down the damage each hit caused to compensate for a character's low skill.

That's it.

Nothing else was different.
Missing because of inadequate skills even though you physically hit in a first person game is incredibly jarring. The combat system was presented as real time action, but in practice it was just throwing dice at each other. Mixing the two was incredibly irritating and made Morrowind's combat the least enjoyable of any game I've ever played.
 

ultrachicken

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Wayneguard said:
ultrachicken said:
Wayneguard said:
ultrachicken said:
Morrowind's entire world is brown

And honestly, did anyone see ANYTHING like
in Oblivion? The answer is no... you didn't.

To me, Morrowind is one of the richest and most unique fantasy worlds ever created. The generic fantasy aspects are kept to a minimum while the aspects unique to Morrowind (Giant mushroom trees towering over the lush ascadian isles, volcanic sulfur vents protruding from the burnt, ash-laden wastes of Molag Amur, etc) are pushed to the forefront. Morrowind just has a great, great setting.
Interesting how you chose to show a screenshot from the Ascadian Isles, pretty much the only region with green in it, to prove that the game isn't brown, and then showed a screenshot that was entirely brown.

The only way in which Morrowind was "unique" was the huge fungus they scattered across the place, the structures built from the shells of animals, and Vivec. Vivec was genuinely unique, but most of the rest has been done in other RPGs plenty, just not usually in Western ones. Though Morrowind does deserve props for its weird creatures.
The existance of one green region does not preclude the existance of regions with other color palettes and themes. Molag Amur is covered in black volcanic ash. Bitter Coast is sickly green. Red Mountain is... Red. Your generalization of the color palette is wrong, sera.
The way I remember those regions is as follows: dark brown, greenish brown, reddish brown. Everywhere I looked there was a brown tint, and I dislike that. If you didn't notice it as much as I did, then more power to you, but I personally could not see past the overwhelmingly brown palette.
 

poleboy

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The world feels bigger, there's more stuff to do, intrigues between the Great Houses works as an excellent subplot to the main storyline. Oblivion was severely lacking in this last respect - everything that's not the main story is either guild quests (of which there are too few, both guilds and quests) or random sidequests (which range from excellent to trivial).