Why do you not believe the indoctrination theory? *Major Spoilers*

[Uszi]

Question, maybe this is brought up in the previous 11 pages, but I didn't see it on a scan-through:

Does anyone have an answer for why the prothean VI doesn't pick up on Shep's indoctrination? It's pretty quick to point out Kai Leng and the Illusive man, but it never detects anything on Shep.

If every time Shep sees the kid (s)he's at least partially indoctrinated, including the beginning on earth, then why doesn't the VI notice it on Thessia or the Cerberus Base? The simplest and most elegant explanation is that (s)he has no trace of indoctrination. In order to claim that Shep is indoctrinated and the VI just can't detect it, you need an unjustified ad hoc assumption about why the VI can detect it in everyone but Shepard.

This creates some real big problems for the Indoctrination theory if you ask me. If Shep wasn't experiencing any signs of indoctrination, then that means (s)he is suddenly indoctrinated less than 24 hours later on Earth. To quote the codex:

"Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

So if Shep is indoctrinated, and it is "rapid onset indoctrination," then that means you have an insane or mentally degraded Shepard to look forward too when (s)he "wakes up" in the Deep Breath cutscene.

Wonderful... Remind me again why this theory gives people so much hope?

 

[luke10123]

how did the Illusive man get on the Citadel

Why do people have problems with this? He was there before it was moved to Earth. KA tells you he had already left the Cerburus base for the citadel when you fight him.

 

[SS2Dante]

how did the Illusive man get on the Citadel

Why do people have problems with this? He was there before it was moved to Earth. KA tells you he had already left the Cerburus base for the citadel when you fight him.

I wasn't supposed to be posting any more , but I'll confirm that yes, sorry, thought I'd removed that a while ago. Will edit.

 

[Outcast107]

Question, maybe this is brought up in the previous 11 pages, but I didn't see it on a scan-through:

Does anyone have an answer for why the prothean VI doesn't pick up on Shep's indoctrination? It's pretty quick to point out Kai Leng and the Illusive man, but it never detects anything on Shep.

If every time Shep sees the kid (s)he's at least partially indoctrinated, including the beginning on earth, then why doesn't the VI notice it on Thessia or the Cerberus Base? The simplest and most elegant explanation is that (s)he has no trace of indoctrination. In order to claim that Shep is indoctrinated and the VI just can't detect it, you need an unjustified ad hoc assumption about why the VI can detect it in everyone but Shepard.

This creates some real big problems for the Indoctrination theory if you ask me. If Shep wasn't experiencing any signs of indoctrination, then that means (s)he is suddenly indoctrinated less than 24 hours later on Earth. To quote the codex:

"Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

So if Shep is indoctrinated, and it is "rapid onset indoctrination," then that means you have an insane or mentally degraded Shepard to look forward too when (s)he "wakes up" in the Deep Breath cutscene.

Wonderful... Remind me again why this theory gives people so much hope?

Because it is stated that the protheans had sleeper agents within their ranks, so it is believe that Protheans VI only had a limit use of detecting indoctrinated people. If you notice, the only time it seem the PVI ever notice the indoctrinated person is when they are using heavily on reaper tech (Like Saren and Leng).

Plus Shepard been going through the indoctrination slowly. He been around Reaper tech for three years. You can't tell me he hasn't felt it. Plus in the Arrival you been out for two days right beside a reaper artifact.

Also if someone is strong will they can hold it off. Though with ME3 Shepard been losing his willpower. Like a ***** in the armor the reaper are hitting that spot. With every passing moment it seem Shepard is losing the will to fight. Having doubts about winning.

Plus just watch the video if you haven't. It pretty well done and explain a good bit.

 

[Cryo84R]

I don't believe it because it's bat shit fucking crazy talk born out of a desperate desire to rationalize away the craptastic ending they gave us.

 

[TheCommanders]

I don't believe it because it's bat shit fucking crazy talk born out of a desperate desire to rationalize away the craptastic ending they gave us.

And that sounds like someone determined to be angry and unbelieving. We're not defending the way the game currently stops; if the theory is true they still should have finished the game, just why we think it's true. Did you read your own post and see what you sounded like before you posted it? It's not helping anything.

-snip-

Because it is stated that the protheans had sleeper agents within their ranks, so it is believe that Protheans VI only had a limit use of detecting indoctrinated people. If you notice, the only time it seem the PVI ever notice the indoctrinated person is when they are using heavily on reaper tech (Like Saren and Leng).

Plus Shepard been going through the indoctrination slowly. He been around Reaper tech for three years. You can't tell me he hasn't felt it. Plus in the Arrival you been out for two days right beside a reaper artifact.

Also if someone is strong will they can hold it off. Though with ME3 Shepard been losing his willpower. Like a ***** in the armor the reaper are hitting that spot. With every passing moment it seem Shepard is losing the will to fight. Having doubts about winning.

Plus just watch the video if you haven't. It pretty well done and explain a good bit.

Well explained, but I thought I woud add as well that up until the end Shepard is NOT fully indoctrinated (remember, it's a process, not an on/off switch). Even then, only if you chose one of the "wrong" endings. We can't really know what the VI's are looking for when determining if someone is indoctrinated, but as you pointed out, the Protheans were compromised despite their apparent detection system, so clearly it's not infallible.

 

[MarxonSR1]

It would be fantastic for this to be the case, and if it is, it's an improvement regardless.
But made less so by Bioware/EA withholding the true ending. If it had immediately proceeded the 'faux' ending, that would have been great and an elegant twist ending on the part of Bioware.

The alternative is just an inexplicable lapse in common sense and writing quality.

It would be so nice to believe, but it feels to easy and elegant. Nonetheless of all possible outcome to the 'ending fiasco', a 'this was not the actual ending' is the best option as far as I'm concerned.
Which speaks volumes about how much I disliked the writing.

 

[Uszi]

Question, maybe this is brought up in the previous 11 pages, but I didn't see it on a scan-through:

Does anyone have an answer for why the prothean VI doesn't pick up on Shep's indoctrination? It's pretty quick to point out Kai Leng and the Illusive man, but it never detects anything on Shep.

If every time Shep sees the kid (s)he's at least partially indoctrinated, including the beginning on earth, then why doesn't the VI notice it on Thessia or the Cerberus Base? The simplest and most elegant explanation is that (s)he has no trace of indoctrination. In order to claim that Shep is indoctrinated and the VI just can't detect it, you need an unjustified ad hoc assumption about why the VI can detect it in everyone but Shepard.

This creates some real big problems for the Indoctrination theory if you ask me. If Shep wasn't experiencing any signs of indoctrination, then that means (s)he is suddenly indoctrinated less than 24 hours later on Earth. To quote the codex:

"Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

So if Shep is indoctrinated, and it is "rapid onset indoctrination," then that means you have an insane or mentally degraded Shepard to look forward too when (s)he "wakes up" in the Deep Breath cutscene.

Wonderful... Remind me again why this theory gives people so much hope?

Because it is stated that the protheans had sleeper agents within their ranks, so it is believe that Protheans VI only had a limit use of detecting indoctrinated people.

Is there evidence in the game for this?

Or is it an example of an unjustified ad hoc explanation?

I don't remember the specifics of how the Prothean VI is able to identify indoctrination ever being discussed. Just that both Vigil on Ilos and the VI from Thessia both state that you are not indoctrinated.

If you notice, the only time it seem the PVI ever notice the indoctrinated person is when they are using heavily on reaper tech (Like Saren and Leng).

Correlation =/= Causation. We have a pretty meager sample size anyway for indoctrinated agents. Saren, Leng and Tim all appear to have been pretty significantly augmented. We don't really have an example of a non-augmented, indoctrinated agent interacting with Prothean VI. For instance, if we saw that the VI was unable to detect Benezia's indoctrination, that would be pretty solid proof that you needed to be implanted.

Plus Shepard been going through the indoctrination slowly. He been around Reaper tech for three years. You can't tell me he hasn't felt it. Plus in the Arrival you been out for two days right beside a reaper artifact.

Also if someone is strong will they can hold it off. Though with ME3 Shepard been losing his willpower. Like a ***** in the armor the reaper are hitting that spot. With every passing moment it seem Shepard is losing the will to fight. Having doubts about winning.

Plus just watch the video if you haven't. It pretty well done and explain a good bit.

I've seen the video, I understand the arguments.

My issue is that I think the evidence more likely indicates that it was just bad writing on Bioware's part. The Prothean VI is just the most salient example I can think of at the moment.

Thanks for the response, though.

Well explained, but I thought I woud add as well that up until the end Shepard is NOT fully indoctrinated (remember, it's a process, not an on/off switch). Even then, only if you chose one of the "wrong" endings. We can't really know what the VI's are looking for when determining if someone is indoctrinated, but as you pointed out, the Protheans were compromised despite their apparent detection system, so clearly it's not infallible.

Eh, the VI's weren't compromised though, were they? The ability of the VIs to detect indoctrinated agents prevented them from being destroyed with the rest of the Prothean tech during the last cycle.

Yes, the protheans fell. But Ilos never fell, and no one ever discovered and destroyed the VI on Thessia, though one might presume they tried.

But you're right, we have no idea how it works. Just that the VI on Ilos says about the same thing as the one on Thessia, saying there's no "taint" of indoctrination on Shep, and that they can detect indoctrinated presences from a distance.

 

[BoogityBoogityMan]

#1 reason not to believe bizarre fanwank theory: huge megacorp videogame companies would NEVER intentionally release a game with an ending that required more than a grade 6 level intelligence to grasp. AAA videogames are not intellectual exercises, ssssory.

 

[Outcast107]

Question, maybe this is brought up in the previous 11 pages, but I didn't see it on a scan-through:

Does anyone have an answer for why the prothean VI doesn't pick up on Shep's indoctrination? It's pretty quick to point out Kai Leng and the Illusive man, but it never detects anything on Shep.

If every time Shep sees the kid (s)he's at least partially indoctrinated, including the beginning on earth, then why doesn't the VI notice it on Thessia or the Cerberus Base? The simplest and most elegant explanation is that (s)he has no trace of indoctrination. In order to claim that Shep is indoctrinated and the VI just can't detect it, you need an unjustified ad hoc assumption about why the VI can detect it in everyone but Shepard.

This creates some real big problems for the Indoctrination theory if you ask me. If Shep wasn't experiencing any signs of indoctrination, then that means (s)he is suddenly indoctrinated less than 24 hours later on Earth. To quote the codex:

"Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

So if Shep is indoctrinated, and it is "rapid onset indoctrination," then that means you have an insane or mentally degraded Shepard to look forward too when (s)he "wakes up" in the Deep Breath cutscene.

Wonderful... Remind me again why this theory gives people so much hope?

Because it is stated that the protheans had sleeper agents within their ranks, so it is believe that Protheans VI only had a limit use of detecting indoctrinated people.

Is there evidence in the game for this?

Or is it an example of an unjustified ad hoc explanation?

Yep, if you have the From Ashes DLC (OR even play ME1)

Javik states that his mission and so many others were to sleep during the reaper invasion and wake up later and make a huge army and reclaim their fallen Empire. Though traitors from within gave away their position. As well as the cricble he states that their forces was split. Some saying that they believe they could control, while the other half wanted to destroy.

Turns out later he states that the ones who wanted to control were indoctrinated. And for ME1 proof, I believe talking to Virgil he states that Reapers would release indoctrinated protheans and let them get pick up. So they could betray their own forces later (Most likely lower their defense and etc.)

Edit: If I can find the conversation on youtube I'll paste it.

Edit 2: Also Didn't the VI say they destroy all records of Ilos in the citadel? So there was no way that reapers could have known about it. Plus for the VI on Thessa I believe ti was hidden well. Since Reapers don't attack low tech species they wouldn't have bother with the Asari. So it was safe to assume why these two VI were able to stay "alive" after all these years.

Edit 3: Ok I can't find the conversation of where it took place, but I can show you at least the intro of javik that shows what happen.

 

[Selef]

its not that i don't believe the indoctrination theory, its that if it turns out to be true, they should have included it with the game all along instead of giving us a half ass ending and then some DLC with the "Real" ending afterword. They should of had another part of the game to play after the credits that showed shepherd waking up from the indoctrination and actually starting the crucible for real, if the right option was chosen.

 

[Outcast107]

its not that i don't believe the indoctrination theory, its that if it turns out to be true, they should have included it with the game all along instead of giving us a half ass ending and then some DLC with the "Real" ending afterword. They should of had another part of the game to play after the credits that showed shepherd waking up from the indoctrination and actually starting the crucible for real, if the right option was chosen.

True, but if they had any files on the CD then it would have been known most likely with in a few days and their huge "Lol we fool you" wouldn't be as big or cool. Letting people find out for themselves at least in my opinion is cooler. It shows how much love both the fan base and the delevepers have for the game.

Am I saying the indoctrinated theory 100% correct? no, but it does fill in a lot of plot holes that makes everything into sense. Plus if you do make the right choice, it shows you waking up and taking in a breath of air. So counts for something?

 

[Selef]

True, but if they had any files on the CD then it would have been known most likely with in a few days and their huge "Lol we fool you" wouldn't be as big or cool. Letting people find out for themselves at least in my opinion is cooler. It shows how much love both the fan base and the delevepers have for the game.

Am I saying the indoctrinated theory 100% correct? no, but it does fill in a lot of plot holes that makes everything into sense. Plus if you do make the right choice, it shows you waking up and taking in a breath of air. So counts for something?

Yea but it really would have saved them a lot of trouble, i like the IT i really do, its the only reason I can replay the main story. I'm kinda confused at your reply, what i meant is it should have come packed with the game, not released at some future point as a DLC. I mean its a cool idea to have the real ending released for a game at a later date just to throw them off (provided its free of course, because its a slippery slope if its not). but it certainly would have saved bioware a huge headache to just have included it all along lol.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I don't believe it because I know the ending(s) just sucked. It was full of plot-holes because it was just badly put together. It came out of nowhere and just dumped several serious choices on you before giving you a horrible cut-scene that gives you no closure.

I honestly can't believe that Bioware would be smart enough to put that subtle of an ending in without typing people off at the very end. No, they just totally fucked up on the endings and let us down. Believe that there's a hidden meaning to that shit just reeks of denial to me.

 

[Outcast107]

True, but if they had any files on the CD then it would have been known most likely with in a few days and their huge "Lol we fool you" wouldn't be as big or cool. Letting people find out for themselves at least in my opinion is cooler. It shows how much love both the fan base and the delevepers have for the game.

Am I saying the indoctrinated theory 100% correct? no, but it does fill in a lot of plot holes that makes everything into sense. Plus if you do make the right choice, it shows you waking up and taking in a breath of air. So counts for something?

Yea but it really would have saved them a lot of trouble, i like the IT i really do, its the only reason I can replay the main story. I'm kinda confused at your reply, what i meant is it should have come packed with the game, not released at some future point as a DLC. I mean its a cool idea to have the real ending released for a game at a later date just to throw them off (provided its free of course, because its a slippery slope if its not). but it certainly would have saved bioware a huge headache to just have included it all along lol.

Ah what I meant was, it would have been found out sooner and be a let down. Since it seem people love to see what files were hidden away (Like how they found out about the Prothean DLC on disc).

Though true it should have came with it to save a lot of headace, but it wouldn't be as cool if the fans didn't put it all together without outside help. But to each his own.

 

[Selef]

True, but if they had any files on the CD then it would have been known most likely with in a few days and their huge "Lol we fool you" wouldn't be as big or cool. Letting people find out for themselves at least in my opinion is cooler. It shows how much love both the fan base and the delevepers have for the game.

Am I saying the indoctrinated theory 100% correct? no, but it does fill in a lot of plot holes that makes everything into sense. Plus if you do make the right choice, it shows you waking up and taking in a breath of air. So counts for something?

Yea but it really would have saved them a lot of trouble, i like the IT i really do, its the only reason I can replay the main story. I'm kinda confused at your reply, what i meant is it should have come packed with the game, not released at some future point as a DLC. I mean its a cool idea to have the real ending released for a game at a later date just to throw them off (provided its free of course, because its a slippery slope if its not). but it certainly would have saved bioware a huge headache to just have included it all along lol.

Ah what I meant was, it would have been found out sooner and be a let down. Since it seem people love to see what files were hidden away (Like how they found out about the Prothean DLC on disc).

Though true it should have came with it to save a lot of headace, but it wouldn't be as cool if the fans didn't put it all together without outside help. But to each his own.

Way i look at it those who want spoilers get them one way or another, those who don't just play the game,but thats just me. I cant really think of much more to add to this really. But it was nice talking to you and getting another view on the topic.

 

[Outcast107]

True, but if they had any files on the CD then it would have been known most likely with in a few days and their huge "Lol we fool you" wouldn't be as big or cool. Letting people find out for themselves at least in my opinion is cooler. It shows how much love both the fan base and the delevepers have for the game.

Am I saying the indoctrinated theory 100% correct? no, but it does fill in a lot of plot holes that makes everything into sense. Plus if you do make the right choice, it shows you waking up and taking in a breath of air. So counts for something?

Yea but it really would have saved them a lot of trouble, i like the IT i really do, its the only reason I can replay the main story. I'm kinda confused at your reply, what i meant is it should have come packed with the game, not released at some future point as a DLC. I mean its a cool idea to have the real ending released for a game at a later date just to throw them off (provided its free of course, because its a slippery slope if its not). but it certainly would have saved bioware a huge headache to just have included it all along lol.

Ah what I meant was, it would have been found out sooner and be a let down. Since it seem people love to see what files were hidden away (Like how they found out about the Prothean DLC on disc).

Though true it should have came with it to save a lot of headace, but it wouldn't be as cool if the fans didn't put it all together without outside help. But to each his own.

Way i look at it those who want spoilers get them one way or another, those who don't just play the game,but thats just me. I cant really think of much more to add to this really. But it was nice talking to you and getting another view on the topic.

Eh no problem. I enjoy the IT and think it will truly happen. Though only time will tell.

 

[Savagezion]

My biggest issue with the Indoctrination theory is that it begins with Arrival DLC. That means the beginning of this story arc began on DLC. Now, the end is suspected to be sold as DLC. Now, if I can dig up that quote about the Prothean DLC where Bioware said something about how they would never tear out a part of the core story to be sold separately as DLC.

Mass Effect 3's story arc starts in Arrival (ME2 DLC) and will probably end in whatever ending DLC they decide to make. I don't discredit the Indoctrination Theory but, seriously, this sucks.

 

[Zen Toombs]

I don't believe it because it's bat shit fucking crazy talk born out of a desperate desire to rationalize away the craptastic ending they gave us.

Trolling troll is trolling.

But if not - have you listened to what they have to say? For quote "bat shit fucking crazy talk" it covers almost every story-based problem with the endings. However, it also requires the game to continue in the proper manner with DLC. How that will proceed remains to be seen, but it still has the potential to be fantastic if the right free DLC is released.

 

[LongMuckDong]

100% for Indoctrination.

Even if I thought that Indoctrinists (aka me and the rest) were CRAZY, I would still prefer the ending to be an Indoctrinated vision over being literally retarded with Godboy and his cosmic magic and multi-colour fart balloons.