Why does America fear/distrust it's government?

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Here's a direct answer: This country was founded by people who'd literally fought against a tyrannical governing system and did not want to institute another government where the voice of the People were cast aside by the ruling elite in favor of "we know better than you". Its in America's blood to distrust those in power, because they're in power and can't be trusted. Our Founders recognized the fallibility of humanity, that we're all imperfect beings and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore our Constitution was designed not to give power to the Government, but give power to the People.

Communism, as designed by Karl Marx and NOT Stalin or Lenin is designed to do much the same thing. Yet America hates Communists more than quite possibly anything else that has, does, will and can exist ever.

Difference being, Communism (supposedly) rewards everyone equally no matter if they make an A effort or a D- effort. It also fantasizes about human beings being inherently good and can be expected to treat each other equally and fairly. Equality isn't everyone gets the same things, its the idea that we're equally free to choose our paths in life, not have them chosen for us. In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?

If you read the Communist Manifesto, the wording is more like "To each according to his ability; to each according to his need".
According to that line, those who work harder would get more, though every person would get enough. The only reason that it didn't work is indeed because people are not inherently good.

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Here's a direct answer: This country was founded by people who'd literally fought against a tyrannical governing system and did not want to institute another government where the voice of the People were cast aside by the ruling elite in favor of "we know better than you". Its in America's blood to distrust those in power, because they're in power and can't be trusted. Our Founders recognized the fallibility of humanity, that we're all imperfect beings and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore our Constitution was designed not to give power to the Government, but give power to the People.

Communism, as designed by Karl Marx and NOT Stalin or Lenin is designed to do much the same thing. Yet America hates Communists more than quite possibly anything else that has, does, will and can exist ever.

Difference being, Communism (supposedly) rewards everyone equally no matter if they make an A effort or a D- effort. It also fantasizes about human beings being inherently good and can be expected to treat each other equally and fairly. Equality isn't everyone gets the same things, its the idea that we're equally free to choose our paths in life, not have them chosen for us. In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?

'In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?'

Here's the thing. A Communist Dictatorship is an oxymoron. If a 'Communist' nation is oppressive, then it isn't Communist. That's just not how Communism works. A Communist Government has very little power.

Besides, the Democratic Republic model (What the US has) hasn't been working either, and it honestly doesn't even sound great in theory. It's the majority telling the minority how to live in theory, but in practice...

Well, what was Obama's public approval rating at last count? 11%? Well, he's who you voted in. Or if you DIDN'T vote for him...well, he got elected anyway, didn't he? That would be the failing of a DR.

Edit: Forgot a point. You're correct in that, in a Communist society, there wouldn't be anyone who wanted to succeed for the sake of what comes with success. However, that just means that people in a particular field are there because they WANT to be. Not because they were in it for the money, or the fame.

Here is an example. In America, a girl's father dies from cancer. Because of that, she wants to become a Doctor, specifically a cancer researcher and help find some kind of cure. If she doesn't have enough money or connections, it's possible that she may never be able to get into Medical school.

In a Communist country, she could, provided that she is intelligent enough to make it thought the coursework.

Communism doesn't kill ambition, it encourages it...it just doesn't encourage ambition for ambition's sake.

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Here's a direct answer: This country was founded by people who'd literally fought against a tyrannical governing system and did not want to institute another government where the voice of the People were cast aside by the ruling elite in favor of "we know better than you". Its in America's blood to distrust those in power, because they're in power and can't be trusted. Our Founders recognized the fallibility of humanity, that we're all imperfect beings and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore our Constitution was designed not to give power to the Government, but give power to the People.

Communism, as designed by Karl Marx and NOT Stalin or Lenin is designed to do much the same thing. Yet America hates Communists more than quite possibly anything else that has, does, will and can exist ever.

Difference being, Communism (supposedly) rewards everyone equally no matter if they make an A effort or a D- effort. It also fantasizes about human beings being inherently good and can be expected to treat each other equally and fairly. Equality isn't everyone gets the same things, its the idea that we're equally free to choose our paths in life, not have them chosen for us. In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?

'In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?'

Here's the thing. A Communist Dictatorship is an oxymoron. If a 'Communist' nation is oppressive, then it isn't Communist. That's just not how Communism works. A Communist Government has very little power.

Besides, the Democratic Republic model (What the US has) hasn't been working either, and it honestly doesn't even sound great in theory. It's the majority telling the minority how to live in theory, but in practice...

Well, what was Obama's public approval rating at last count? 11%? Well, he's who you voted in. Or if you DIDN'T vote for him...well, he got elected anyway, didn't he? That would be the failing of a DR.

Edit: Forgot a point. You're correct in that, in a Communist society, there wouldn't be anyone who wanted to succeed for the sake of what comes with success. However, that just means that people in a particular field are there because they WANT to be. Not because they were in it for the money, or the fame.

Here is an example. In America, a girl's father dies from cancer. Because of that, she wants to become a Doctor, specifically a cancer researcher and help find some kind of cure. If she doesn't have enough money or connections, it's possible that she may never be able to get into Medical school.

In a Communist country, she could, provided that she is intelligent enough to make it thought the coursework.

Communism doesn't kill ambition, it encourages it...it just doesn't encourage ambition for ambition's sake.

I agree that college/universities are extremely overpriced and ruled by elitists. To paraphrase a movie (Accepted) "the prestige of a school is not how many people it lets in, but how many it rejects".
Point 2: Obama's election in no way shows a failure of the DR. I never liked the man because of his lack of experience and his voting record in the Senate, plus the infatuation of the media with him. But he wasn't voted in for life, just a 4 year term. Upon which gives the American public time to see whether or not the ones who voted for him made an informed choice or not. And given the current state of his approval, he probably won't make 2nd term. I also think his election to the Presidency was a wake-up call to the "my vote don't count" crowd, that everyone who has an interest in how their country is run should care, should educate themselves on who's being nominated and should get out and vote.
Our biggest problem in this country is that we've become complacent and allowed the government too much leeway in what they do. With the advent of the Tea Parties (who are mostly good and honest citizens, not the vile racist hatemongers certain media outlets portray them to be) we've shown that people have the power to change this country, to affect the outcomes of bad decisions and change things before they go too far.
What this country needs is to learn to be unified at all times, even if we disagree on points here and there. That we're all Americans, not divided by race or class but united in the fact that we're all able to affect our lives and make decisions for ourselves. That our government exists at our whim, not because they're "born to rule". We've become lazy, and now we need to shake off that lethargy and take back the power we've always had.
I'm an American Patriot, though I don't always agree with what is done in the name of the country or under our flag, I still love this country and what it was originally founded upon. Hard work for great rewards, freedom and equality to be what we want to be (not equality decided by government). I don't blindly wave the flag and say "America is great" and blind myself to things that have happened in our name, I wave it and say "America is great" despite what has been done in its name. We're great because at heart our people are caring and giving, charitable and altruistic. Not because we're required to be, but because we want to be.

 

[spartan231490]

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

they keep saying that, and yet american citizens are under a lot harsher control and restrictions than those of almost all other western nations. i think it's just something that they like to keep telling themselves. and yes, i have lived in the u.s., as well as several other first world contries.

How are we under stricter control and restrictions?

Try going into an airport. You'll figure it out quickly enough.

Going into an airport is a choice. It's not a restriction of freedom, because you can choose to drive, or train, or bus, to wherever you are going. In effect, you are entering into a contract with the airport. In order to fly on our plane, you have to fulfill certain safety protocols.

 

[teqrevisited]

I thought that was normal. I don't know anyone who trusts the UK government, and certainly noone that trusts the US government.

 

[LCP]

I don't know any government that is 100% trusted by their people

 

[thevillageidiot13]

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

they keep saying that, and yet american citizens are under a lot harsher control and restrictions than those of almost all other western nations. i think it's just something that they like to keep telling themselves. and yes, i have lived in the u.s., as well as several other first world contries.

How are we under stricter control and restrictions?

Try going into an airport. You'll figure it out quickly enough.

Going into an airport is a choice. It's not a restriction of freedom, because you can choose to drive, or train, or bus, to wherever you are going. In effect, you are entering into a contract with the airport. In order to fly on our plane, you have to fulfill certain safety protocols.

Your question was "How are we under stricter control and regulations?" Sure, going into an airport is a choice, but that doesn't change the fact that the government is controlling the various modes of transportation available to us.

The question you posed wasn't about choice or not. It was about how the government is putting the lives of its people under stricter and stricter regulation, and the fact of the matter is that airport security has only gotten tighter and tighter over the last 10 years.

 

[Kathinka]

snip

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

they keep saying that, and yet american citizens are under a lot harsher control and restrictions than those of almost all other western nations. i think it's just something that they like to keep telling themselves. and yes, i have lived in the u.s., as well as several other first world contries.

How are we under stricter control and restrictions?

Try going into an airport. You'll figure it out quickly enough.

xD

something in that direction.

but i was actually refering to other stuff.
it starts with basic political decisions. you have two parties that are essentially identical. that puts your political "freedom" somewhere in the vicinity of east germany in the fifties. basic human rights are intruded by the governement on a daily basis. gun control, the example you brought, is more liberal in some european nations too. as i understand it a lot of states don't permit firearms.
the entire ruleset of society is dictated by wealthy white christians. anti islamic sentiments are the social norm, kind of like antisemitism was in the twenties and thirties. the restrictions start with simple and little things, like in school. this whole detention-suspension-expellation-system is pretty unique to the states, in no other country i've been to school was there ever more needed than a "don't do it" by the teacher.
there is so many tiny nuances that form the complete picture, i can't count all of them down here obviously. had you ever lived outside the u.s. for an extended period of time (maybe you'll get the opportunity one day), you'd soon see that it's actually as restrictive and authoritarian as it gets without turning into a full blown dictatorship (though i would under no circumstances consider the u.s. a democracy. the days when the people actually had influence of the nations course are long over.)

 

[XHolySmokesX]

America is a pretty big country. 300,000,000 people 52 states. Each stat has it's own government that can create it's own laws.

My persOnal opinion is that the goveRnmental system is too Unnorganised and gives too many People too much power whilst basing most, if not all, desCisions on the economical benefiTs to those in goveRnment.

(10 points if you can find the hidden word)

As i hail from the United kingdom, i would like to give an honourable mention to the british government. If you like governments that never get anything done and listen to the wrong type of people (criminals, religeous extremists, selfish money obsessed buisness people, etc), then England is the place for you.

 

[Benpasko]

If you read the Communist Manifesto, the wording is more like "To each according to his ability; to each according to his need".
According to that line, those who work harder would get more, though every person would get enough. The only reason that it didn't work is indeed because people are not inherently good.

This right here. I'm an American patriot, and even I acknowledge that Communism is a perfect idea. But reality isn't perfect, so true Communism just isn't possible.

And I don't mistrust my government at all. I believe it's made up of people who want to help the citizens. But even though I trust them, I know they're stupid at times, and can be misguided. And for the record, I'm a true Republican, but not one of the crazies you see in the media. Economic conservatism, not social.

 

[ParadoxHunter]

To be fair, if I were American, I would have plenty of reasons to distrust the government.

For starters, some presidents are unanimously agreed to be completely stupid, even by Americans, (Bush, for example, somehow stayed in power for two terms, or eight years) yet they somehow assume the role of the most powerful man in the world. Ronald Reagen was an actor, for crying out loud, do you need more proof? That would be like making Arnold Schwarzenegger governer of California... oh wait a minute...

Also, they are almost constantly at war. Hell, one of the first wars they had when they became independent was between themselves. They claim to have won both world wars, yet they joined both at the very last minute, and ended up with the same amount of casualties as we did, and ever since, they have been constantly getting into battles with small countries, like Vietnam and Iraq. Even then, their reasons for doing so are incredibly weak. Rather annoyingly, they have this nasty habit of involving other nations who otherwise wouldn't dare attack that country. For example, the USA went to war with Iraq, and they somehow got the UK involved, who at first didn't want to. (I personally blame our kiss-ass prime minister Tony Blair for that blunder) As a result, we have lost over 300 soldiers over a war that we had no part in in the first place.

Finally, they do not tell their people anything. The attacks on 9/11 were terrible, yes, and the lives lost were a great human tragedy, but if you look into further, you will find that there are a lot of problems with the story the government made public. For example, how does a building completely collapse downwards if it was hit on the side by a plane? For that matter, why did it collapse? The steel infrastructure couldn't have melted or have been weakened by the fire, and even if, for it to collapse like that, the fire would have to have spread somehow in two hours on all floors of the building and simultaneously melt the infrastructure. Looked into with more detail, you will eventually figure out that it was a very cruel and heartless financial move by the government, dressed up as an elaborate and completely impossible terrorist attack by five guys with cardboard cutters.

 

[Verlander]

Other countries are more used to, and aware, that governments don't work, and are useless as fuck, and hey have also learned to get on with their lives because there's fuck all they can do about it. In the US, they have yet to do that to the same extent. Although, I think you'll find plenty have the same attitude as we do in America.

Also, America seems to produce a lot of "internet anarchists", that is, people who say smack on the web, but fall into line in real life. I'm going to be charitable, and say that this is due to the sheer size of America, and the inability to motivate an actual physical presence as easily as it is to in places like Britain. In that respect, the government can be a pretty alienating and oppressive concept to the casual hopelessness of an individual's daily struggle.

Yeah, that's it.

 

[thevillageidiot13]

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

they keep saying that, and yet american citizens are under a lot harsher control and restrictions than those of almost all other western nations. i think it's just something that they like to keep telling themselves. and yes, i have lived in the u.s., as well as several other first world contries.

How are we under stricter control and restrictions?

Try going into an airport. You'll figure it out quickly enough.

xD

something in that direction.

but i was actually refering to other stuff.
it starts with basic political decisions. you have two parties that are essentially identical. that puts your political "freedom" somewhere in the vicinity of east germany in the fifties. basic human rights are intruded by the governement on a daily basis. gun control, the example you brought, is more liberal in some european nations too. as i understand it a lot of states don't permit firearms.
the entire ruleset of society is dictated by wealthy white christians. anti islamic sentiments are the social norm, kind of like antisemitism was in the twenties and thirties. the restrictions start with simple and little things, like in school. this whole detention-suspension-expellation-system is pretty unique to the states, in no other country i've been to school was there ever more needed than a "don't do it" by the teacher.
there is so many tiny nuances that form the complete picture, i can't count all of them down here obviously. had you ever lived outside the u.s. for an extended period of time (maybe you'll get the opportunity one day), you'd soon see that it's actually as restrictive and authoritarian as it gets without turning into a full blown dictatorship (though i would under no circumstances consider the u.s. a democracy. the days when the people actually had influence of the nations course are long over.)

Also, keep in mind that, historically, the United States has been a very undemocratic and unjust place to live in, so, even though it claims to be built on principles of freedom, justice, and the power of the people, everything the U.S. does rings of hypocrisy -- the Vietnam War, McCarthyism, the Cold War containment policy, which put countless corrupt dictators in power in the name of halting the spread of communism.

So, yeah, I definitely agree with you there.

 

[let's rock]

Because our government is full of morons, really everything about it can be summed in that sentence. Clinton through Obama, every persedent has tried their best to fuck up this country as much as possible. Seriously I am pretty sure now that the government has a hazing ritual where you have to see how many brain cells you can kill by holding your breath in just one day, because nobody can be this stupid otherwise. As per why they don't want the government in controll of health care, they let the government controll the economy, look what happened there.

snip

I'll just leave this here... it says what needs to be said about it.

Truer words have never been worked into a demotivational poster before.

Yah, agreed

 

[Kathinka]

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

they keep saying that, and yet american citizens are under a lot harsher control and restrictions than those of almost all other western nations. i think it's just something that they like to keep telling themselves. and yes, i have lived in the u.s., as well as several other first world contries.

How are we under stricter control and restrictions?

Try going into an airport. You'll figure it out quickly enough.

xD

something in that direction.

but i was actually refering to other stuff.
it starts with basic political decisions. you have two parties that are essentially identical. that puts your political "freedom" somewhere in the vicinity of east germany in the fifties. basic human rights are intruded by the governement on a daily basis. gun control, the example you brought, is more liberal in some european nations too. as i understand it a lot of states don't permit firearms.
the entire ruleset of society is dictated by wealthy white christians. anti islamic sentiments are the social norm, kind of like antisemitism was in the twenties and thirties. the restrictions start with simple and little things, like in school. this whole detention-suspension-expellation-system is pretty unique to the states, in no other country i've been to school was there ever more needed than a "don't do it" by the teacher.
there is so many tiny nuances that form the complete picture, i can't count all of them down here obviously. had you ever lived outside the u.s. for an extended period of time (maybe you'll get the opportunity one day), you'd soon see that it's actually as restrictive and authoritarian as it gets without turning into a full blown dictatorship (though i would under no circumstances consider the u.s. a democracy. the days when the people actually had influence of the nations course are long over.)

Also, keep in mind that, historically, the United States has been a very undemocratic and unjust place to live in, so, even though it claims to be built on principles of freedom, justice, and the power of the people, everything the U.S. does rings of hypocrisy -- the Vietnam War, McCarthyism, the Cold War containment policy, which put countless corrupt dictators in power in the name of halting the spread of communism.

So, yeah, I definitely agree with you there.

i partially agree, though i think that there was a time, back when the u.s. were founded, when it was pretty much ahead of most of the world. it was a crude and crappy form of democracy while everyplace else was still ruled by clerics and monarchs.
the problem is that they kept their crappy and crude form of democracy in place over the few centuries of their short history, while the governement systems of the rest of the world kept evolving.
but i'd still say that back then, when the founding fathers created the u.s. they were on to something. not their fault that the whole thing mutated into a warmongering, contentration camp toating abomination.

 

[thevillageidiot13]

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

they keep saying that, and yet american citizens are under a lot harsher control and restrictions than those of almost all other western nations. i think it's just something that they like to keep telling themselves. and yes, i have lived in the u.s., as well as several other first world contries.

How are we under stricter control and restrictions?

Try going into an airport. You'll figure it out quickly enough.

xD

something in that direction.

but i was actually refering to other stuff.
it starts with basic political decisions. you have two parties that are essentially identical. that puts your political "freedom" somewhere in the vicinity of east germany in the fifties. basic human rights are intruded by the governement on a daily basis. gun control, the example you brought, is more liberal in some european nations too. as i understand it a lot of states don't permit firearms.
the entire ruleset of society is dictated by wealthy white christians. anti islamic sentiments are the social norm, kind of like antisemitism was in the twenties and thirties. the restrictions start with simple and little things, like in school. this whole detention-suspension-expellation-system is pretty unique to the states, in no other country i've been to school was there ever more needed than a "don't do it" by the teacher.
there is so many tiny nuances that form the complete picture, i can't count all of them down here obviously. had you ever lived outside the u.s. for an extended period of time (maybe you'll get the opportunity one day), you'd soon see that it's actually as restrictive and authoritarian as it gets without turning into a full blown dictatorship (though i would under no circumstances consider the u.s. a democracy. the days when the people actually had influence of the nations course are long over.)

Also, keep in mind that, historically, the United States has been a very undemocratic and unjust place to live in, so, even though it claims to be built on principles of freedom, justice, and the power of the people, everything the U.S. does rings of hypocrisy -- the Vietnam War, McCarthyism, the Cold War containment policy, which put countless corrupt dictators in power in the name of halting the spread of communism.

So, yeah, I definitely agree with you there.

i partially agree, though i think that there was a time, back when the u.s. were founded, when it was pretty much ahead of most of the world. it was a crude and crappy form of democracy while everyplace else was still ruled by clerics and monarchs.
the problem is that they kept their crappy and crude form of democracy in place over the few centuries of their short history, while the governement systems of the rest of the world kept evolving.
but i'd still say that back then, when the founding fathers created the u.s. they were on to something. not their fault that the whole thing mutated into a warmongering, contentration camp toating abomination.

On this, I must disagree. I can relate the government of the early U.S. to the manner in which many people describe communism today: perfect in concept, flawed in practice. The central flaw with democracy is the 51% of the people can rule over the other 49%, which is pretty much what happened with African-Americans for about an entire century after they were freed.

More importantly, it (like communism) assumes that people are inherently good, and will do the right thing and vote in favor of justice and righteousness, which we all know hasn't really been the case.

Frankly, the principles and practices of democracy haven't really changed much. It's still a very elitist system which claims that "anybody" can be put into office, but, let's be honest -- everybody who's ever been President was a filthy-rich person who was educated in those elitist schools that historically only accept other rich people.

 

[Dense_Electric]

Americans ***** that they don't want the government running things, but the fact is that the government is the sole organization in their entire fucking country with an interest in actually helping them, as opposed to screwing them for all that they're worth.

I mean, if you don't want healthcare in the hands of the government, then no one at all is going to take it up. Look, fuck the people who are too short-sighted to see this. I love America, but it can really drive me up the wall sometimes.

Not everything the government does is done to hurt you. No, the government does not exist specifically to screw you. In fact, it's about the only thing out there trying to help you.

Suggesting A, that the government is trying to help people, and that B, no one else is.

Sure, there are certainly some good people in Washington committed to helping people, but a vast majority of them are career politicians through and through who care only about lining their pockets and getting reelected. You wonder why we don't trust these people?

There are, however a large number of charity organizations in this country who do good work at no charge.

Frankly what we need is not a government run healthcare system, but stricter laws ensuring insurance companies can't try to weasel out of legitimate claims (otherwise we end up with an Allison Theus situation). Medical operations often don't cost people a dime here when the people we're paying to help us are legitimate, it's just that too few of them are legitimate.

Okay, I'm riled up now, so one more thing. What the FUCK is with your tax rate? You guys wonder why your economy is fucked? The highest tax bracket kicks in at over a third of a million dollars, and it's only thirty five fucking per cent! You wonder why your economy is fucked? It's because you're fucking it! The media feeds your population a load of horseshit, and they swallow it whole

Our economy is fucked because our current politicians can't stop spending money they don't have, not because we don't tax people enough. To the contrary, I agree with what Churchill said: "I submit that a nation trying to tax itself into prosperity is like a man trying to stand in a bucket and lift himself up by the handle." Bear in mind - things you pay taxes for, such as college, medical care, etc., our government doesn't pay for that. Instead, we pay for those things to private institutions that don't fall under government control.

That's because conservative groups in the US have spent decades convincing the population that government is always incompetent.

Well, if the current political climate has shown us anything, it's that they're really not wrong in that regard...

Hah, it could be worse. I mean, just look at the previous eight years of government - now that's real government incompetence!

Haha, no disagreements on that. Although personally I have to say Bush did a better job than Obama has done so far (he did manage to prevent any post-9/11 terrorist attacks on American soil and brought gas prices down to a reasonable level and kept them there till the end of his term), but that's just one guy's opinion...

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

where did this happen?

Alison from extra credits was refused surgery by her insurance company so the escapist fans donated money so she could get it done. If she hadn't gotten the surgery done she would have been disabled in one arm and probably in the other aswell eventually. Just watch their latest episode it explains it there.

 

[Bleedingskye]

Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

You're also forgetting all the ridiculous amendments that have been added over the years, bizarre interpretations of the law, and lobbyist convincing gov officials to put commerce before politics.
I don't trust the US gov because they don't trust us and think of the rest of the population as pieces of the system in order to be manipulated.
It's all about capitalism, there are no illusions of that, and we, as Americans, are considered consumers not people.

Plus it seems that the government pushes the envelope just to the point of mass riots, then backs off a bit until people stop complaining, then push a little further. Also, Americans always think that someone else will take care of their problems so the gov gets away with a lot because of apathetic ignorant people.

 

[DarkRyter]

Because Government is lame.

Duh.

 

[ntw3001]

The government has power in a very Captailistic society, I don't see a reason not to fear it.

I really don't agree. The sole purpose of government is to prevent purely-Capitalist enterprises interfering with the welfare of the people as a whole. The duty of a government is to hold power over business and disincentivise unethical practice on behalf of its citizens. Laws are set by whoever holds the power to enforce them, and an elected government is essentially a way of putting that power in the hands of a group whose eventual goal is not solely to acquire power and profit (although obviously both things are desired as a means to an end), but to enrich and empower the citizenry as a whole. Stronger businesses mean weaker government, not the other way round.

We value our personal freedom above all else. It's the reason we don't have laws preventing the sale of M-rated games or R-rated films to minors. It's the reason we're allowed to purchase firearms for personal use. It's the reason we're free to choose what healthcare system works for us, rather than being automatically shoehorned into a government option (as I said in the other topic, I don't mind a government healthcare system so long as it isn't mandatory). It's not that we fear our government, it's that we don't want other people telling us how to live our lives.

I don't think I'd agree with that particularly. These are just examples of laws that are different. Sure, there are plenty of laws which are more permissive than in the rest of the world, but also plenty that aren't. For example, ages of consent and the death penalty. Admittedly either one depends on the state in question, but both show the flip side of the coin as regards comparative levels of freedom. As nonsensical as it is to suppose some general, universal measure of 'freedom', I don't think the USA is any more 'free' than any (for example) Western European country.

As for government healthcare being mandatory, does any country exist where private healthcare is illegal?

 

[neonsword13-ops]

We hit the debt ceiling. I think that says enough.