Why does virtually every "non-binary" gender go back to m/f?

[Claudzia]

I don't think it is a cultural thing either, hijra = trans male, twospirit = LGBT community. And to a name a few of the other genders, non binary - not male or female, transgender - the real trans (not those batcrazy sjws) are transitioning from mtf or ftm. The very definition of gender is: the state of being male or female.

I have noticed usually the supposed "non binary" or "gender neutral" people tend to honestly dress and act like butch girls or vice versa. Like I have never seen, met or heard of a super girly girl or hyper macho dude who called themselves non binary. I concede though gender roles are socially constructed and that a "girl" and "guy" can wear, dress and do virtually anything and still be a boy or girl.

Many of these of so called "3rd+" genders are just basically fancy ways of denoting gender non-conforming people (ex - tomboy girl), trans people and the like. Now a days it seems like girls who don't for example feel ultra girly/feminine now want to be "edgy" and make a new label for themselves like "gender neutral".

 

[Terminal Blue]

Firstly, nah.. terms don't translate perfectly between completely different cultural context. 150 years ago the terms "homosexual" or "transgendered" hadn't been invented yet and "gay" still exclusively meant happy or frivolous. Instead, all gender non-conforming people were simply called "inverts" in English. Did "inverts" mean the same thing as gays? Nope, because it was based on a completely different model of how human society and the human mind worked.

Secondly, if gender was simply defined the state of being male or female, then most of what you're saying literally wouldn't make sense. The concept of "butch girls" could not exist. Because gendering could not operate outside of the state of being male or female, they would simply be girls and, by virtue of being girls, anything they did would become girly. Shifting into that normative phase of "masculine" or "feminine" requires something beyond the mere state of being male or female, you get me?

To say these things already implies that there is more than one way of being male or female, and this necessitates a more complex definition of gender than the one you've suggested.

You cannot have it both ways. Gender cannot simultaneously be essential in nature and yet complex in expression.

 

[Pyrian]

I'm not convinced that "non-binary gender" and "gender non-conforming" are even meaningfully semantically different. If epitomizing the binary is conforming, then "non-binary" is necessarily synonymous with "non-conforming".

 

[Zontar]

I always found these gender activists or whatever you want to call them to be fascinating in their contradiction between belief and action.

Most will claim they believe in what science has proven, yet their entire ideology, some their entire world view, is based upon a hypothesis that has never been proven and has quite a bit of evidence against it. Doctor Money's experiment to prove the existence of gender as something separate from sex that is heavily socially influenced only resulted in proving that it's hard coded at birth and cannot be socialised out of someone. Outside of that no one to my knowledge has even tried to prove the case, and we all know they'd be quoting that study all day if it had happened.

And that's one of the stronger claims. The claim there's more then two genders is one that didn't even have an (unethical) experiment attempt to prove the case, it just got accepted as a religious truth amongst these people without evidence. And now trans doesn't mean anything anymore as a result.

It's ironic that the people who complain about stereotypes are the ones who think a 1% deviation from a cartoonish caricature of them means you're something else then the norm. Special snowflakes indeed.

 

[Pyrian]

That study is way too small and generic to even address the possibility of outliers. The conclusion, that there ARE inborn sexual characteristics, is very supportive of the standard transsexual narrative; the latter only differs in the assertion that in rare cases, those innate characteristics do not strictly match their genitalia. Given known biological variability, it's not a particularly wild claim even on the face of it. Then, there are brain studies which show that transsexual brains are akin to their preferred gender, rather than their genital-exam-assigned sex.

 

[Cold Shiny]

I always found these gender activists or whatever you want to call them to be fascinating in their contradiction between belief and action.

Most will claim they believe in what science has proven, yet their entire ideology, some their entire world view, is based upon a hypothesis that has never been proven and has quite a bit of evidence against it. Doctor Money's experiment to prove the existence of gender as something separate from sex that is heavily socially influenced only resulted in proving that it's hard coded at birth and cannot be socialised out of someone. Outside of that no one to my knowledge has even tried to prove the case, and we all know they'd be quoting that study all day if it had happened.

And that's one of the stronger claims. The claim there's more then two genders is one that didn't even have an (unethical) experiment attempt to prove the case, it just got accepted as a religious truth amongst these people without evidence. And now trans doesn't mean anything anymore as a result.

It's ironic that the people who complain about stereotypes are the ones who think a 1% deviation from a cartoonish caricature of them means you're something else then the norm. Special snowflakes indeed.

PREACH

The entire concept is based on how you "feel" and is never, ever, medically diagnosed in a standardized way.

 

[Zontar]

I do believe that there is a small minority of men who are born with their brains wired like a woman, and vice versa. If there is any evidence something beyond that exists, no one in academia has elected to reveal it to the rest of academia or the general public.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Well, great then. A small minority of people are also Trans, non-conforming, or non-binary.

Glad to see you accept that the science supports this.

 

[Lisker84]

I feel like online political discussions are really just a game where people to try to reinterpret another person's points into as offensive a message as possible, and no one's told me.

 

[Zontar]

Trans, non-conforming, or non-binary

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is real.

Which one is it?

Spoiler: The answer will surprise you

Trans

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Trans, non-conforming, or non-binary

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is real.

Which one is it?

Spoiler: The answer will surprise you

Trans

Weird, because "non-conforming" just means that someone doesn't "fit"how society thinks someone of their gender should act, like trans folks, and non-binary can be as simple as a person not identifying as a gender. It's interesting how you can accept that some people have their wires crossed, but only if they're crossed all the way.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

As humans, we are a binary species. It's how we have evolved, it's who we are. Genetically, we are one or the other, there's no middle ground, there's no third option. We fall back on M/F terminology because it's what we created to identify the differences in our genetic makeup.

 

[Saelune]

As humans, we are a binary species. It's how we have evolved, it's who we are. Genetically, we are one or the other, there's no middle ground, there's no third option. We fall back on M/F terminology because it's what we created to identify the differences in our genetic makeup.

You're confusing sex and gender. Sex is what part in human reproduction we are on. Gender is a human construct on how such placement in breeding means you have to look, behave, dress, work, and live or else get ostracized by the rest of society who are too small-minded to accept anything outside the stupid rules society puts up to keep everyone in line.

Wearing a dress isnt going to suddenly make a male infertile.

 

[cleric of the order]

when i hear the large form gender discussion and the variations on the subject it boggles the mind because it doesn't really make sense to me.

it's neo dualism
I refer to sex often because SEX is far more grounded and reasonable then money's idea

The concept of "butch girls" could not exist. Because gendering could not operate outside of the state of being male or female, they would simply be girls and, by virtue of being girls, anything they did would become girly.

and

You cannot have it both ways. Gender cannot simultaneously be essential in nature and yet complex in expression.

you can.
and you've likely very much angered my sister who is trans in the thought process
There are numerous pressures on a organism to survive and thrive.
And we are the product of evolution, adaptation and mutation are implacable to our survival, though just as were were once related to chimps, dogs and dandelions we can still see where origins shift and change.
and that is only if one precludes social adaptations that subvert some of our biological ticks infavour of others.
for instance, i would be floored to find a woman who suffers from paternal uncertainty or follows the handicapping principle to the level men do. Nor would i expect men to start grooming in time to ovulation cycles like woman tend to do.
when we go beyond the very subtle things that inform our actions we can still see lines, a butch woman as you say is still noticeably more masculine for what ever reason (be it chemical, social adaption, mating strategy, burgeoning human variation (techancially still a mating strat) or what have you) still doesn't not have for instance enough noticeable and quantifiable psychological traits that lead her to being exceedingly male. Simply put, folks, mostly social so-called science student refer to the things as a binary in order to show that it doesn't exist as one. the truth is it's closer to a spectrum, like ASD if you can point to inimical parts of the male psyche or determine A % of aggregated behaviors to be determine masculine then you can deem something to be masculine even if some social morays are broken.
We being a sexually Dimorphic species intuitively it follows that we could have quantifiable differences in ingrained responses and perceptions.

Even then how do you explain away differences in intelligence seen through sex, men having a wider spread between really stupid or smart and women being more clustered around the average, faster speech and language skills while men tend to have weakness in that area. the ease of male emotional compartmentalization, differing rates of autism or what pisses of my sister, grey and white matter in the brain and the differences in that effect.

Mind you i believe we are both laymen (my pet peeve is people who do not know etymology of the suffex man) on this subject but assuming you can find difference between male and female, or aggregate patterns brains then how does this shift into gender

 

[Zontar]

Trans, non-conforming, or non-binary

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is real.

Which one is it?

Spoiler: The answer will surprise you

Trans

Weird, because "non-conforming" just means that someone doesn't "fit"how society thinks someone of their gender should act, like trans folks, and non-binary can be as simple as a person not identifying as a gender. It's interesting how you can accept that some people have their wires crossed, but only if they're crossed all the way.

Someone of pure 100% European Caucasian background can choose to not identify with the fact they're white, that won't change the fact they're white even if they deny it.

The hilarious thing about all this nonsense about non-binary (in an inherently binary system) non-conforming types is that there isn't anyone in society with a more rigid and stereotypical view of what gender roles are. No one holds a stronger, more rigid, more dogmatic belief is what it means to be a man or to be a woman, so the slightest deviation from that cartoonish caricature they've painted for themselves is seen as some sort of outside entity of how things are when in reality just because the binary of how the backbone of our brains are wired is there the fact remains like literally everything else in biology there's some deviation within that limited range.

The reason I can't "accept" that some people have the "wires crossed" but not those who don't have it "all the way" is because there is no in-between for them to be stuck in. There's nothing in the middle between a male brain and a female brain. Hell is someone did discover something exists outside of that they'd far more likely have discovered a major brain disease then the mythical third gender that like everything else that's added to the alphabet soup after the first four letters these days is something that not one single person has proven exists yet so many religiously believe it does.

 

[Silence]

Trans, non-conforming, or non-binary

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.

One of these things is not like the others, one of these things is real.

Which one is it?

Spoiler: The answer will surprise you

Trans

Weird, because "non-conforming" just means that someone doesn't "fit"how society thinks someone of their gender should act, like trans folks, and non-binary can be as simple as a person not identifying as a gender. It's interesting how you can accept that some people have their wires crossed, but only if they're crossed all the way.

Someone of pure 100% European Caucasian background can choose to not identify with the fact they're white, that won't change the fact they're white even if they deny it.

The hilarious thing about all this nonsense about non-binary (in an inherently binary system) non-conforming types is that there isn't anyone in society with a more rigid and stereotypical view of what gender roles are. No one holds a stronger, more rigid, more dogmatic belief is what it means to be a man or to be a woman, so the slightest deviation from that cartoonish caricature they've painted for themselves is seen as some sort of outside entity of how things are when in reality just because the binary of how the backbone of our brains are wired is there the fact remains like literally everything else in biology there's some deviation within that limited range.

The reason I can't "accept" that some people have the "wires crossed" but not those who don't have it "all the way" is because there is no in-between for them to be stuck in. There's nothing in the middle between a male brain and a female brain. Hell is someone did discover something exists outside of that they'd far more likely have discovered a major brain disease then the mythical third gender that like everything else that's added to the alphabet soup after the first four letters these days is something that not one single person has proven exists yet so many religiously believe it does.

There's even a biological variant of different brain structure than just male or female.
Research XXY

 

[Zontar]

There's even a biological variant of different brain structure than just male or female.
Research XXY

You'd think that if those sort of chromosomal disorders would have a documented effect on brain structure that isn't just mental disorders if it was the case. I know a few thousand people who'd pass that information around if it was the case.

Though then again half of them (those with one or more additional Y, like myself) often go completely unnoticed until usually unrelated tests discover that fact given how little of an effect that type of disorder has.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

There's even a biological variant of different brain structure than just male or female.
Research XXY

You'd think that if those sort of chromosomal disorders would have a documented effect on brain structure that isn't just mental disorders if it was the case. I know a few thousand people who'd pass that information around if it was the case.

Though then again half of them (those with one or more additional Y, like myself) often go completely unnoticed until usually unrelated tests discover that fact given how little of an effect that type of disorder has.

It's called Klinefelter's and it does have various symptoms. Some of which are kind of noticeable. And yeah, more than a few developmental problems in childhood and older. Depends on the person. Can make puberty interesting. Also all Klinefelter's syndtome are male.

Well I was genderfluid... and I just went full time because it was an easier default after years of HRT. I think, speaking for myself, that I used it as a description of sort of being inbetween finding a comfortable default? It was more of a self descriptive based on external factors.

 

[Zontar]

There's even a biological variant of different brain structure than just male or female.
Research XXY

You'd think that if those sort of chromosomal disorders would have a documented effect on brain structure that isn't just mental disorders if it was the case. I know a few thousand people who'd pass that information around if it was the case.

Though then again half of them (those with one or more additional Y, like myself) often go completely unnoticed until usually unrelated tests discover that fact given how little of an effect that type of disorder has.

It's called Klinefelter's and it does have various symptoms. Some of which are kind of noticeable.

Well I was genderfluid

Yes but it's not a sex, it's a disorder, hell I wouldn't even call it a gender since there's nothing about it that detracts from the male/female brain dichotomy. It's a mistake in genetics and unlike XYY Syndrome isn't something that one would want to keep if one could get rid of it (unless one was a sadist, but hey I'm not one to judge).

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Yes but it's not a sex, it's a disorder, hell I wouldn't even call it a gender since there's nothing about it that detracts from the male/female brain dichotomy. It's a mistake in genetics and unlike XYY Syndrome isn't something that one would want to keep if one could get rid of it (unless one was a sadist, but hey I'm not one to judge).

Ehh... sorry about that, finger rolled over post before I finished (on a phone). Anyways, yes, it's a genetic flaw and it kind of sucks. It's not exactly life threatening or super deleterious. Though XXY is kind of common, XXXY can happen as well... and basically the more additional allosomes, the more noticeable and deleterious the effects.

Also all people with Klinefelter's syndrome are male.

Also has nothing to do with gender. So you're right. Though the atypical neurochemistry and developmental period would have some effect on the brain. Embarassing when you're going through puberty (or somewhat lack thereof). But we're taller than average. So it has its benefits. Longer limbs too. So depending on the outfit, it's not bad being a bit leggy.

Jeans are a pain the arse, though.

It's not life derailing.

No superpowers with being a mutant, however. Unless I'm still waiting for mine. I'm hoping super-healing and maybe animal control with my mind.