Why doesn't saints row receive more recognition from "Big name" Feminists?

[siomasm]

You can play as male, female, transgender, any race and become a powerful individual. The support cast ranges from the the rich, intelligent and successful black woman Aisha, to the sexually open and cunning asset shaundi, to the brilliant and quirky Kinzie.
Even some of those opposing the saints can range from shallow and cruel (Jessica) to james-bond esque villianesses (Deywnter twins).

Likewise it portrays the male characters in just as similar a wide spectrum, though some follow various tropes, ultimately the game is a story and characters are rarely fleshed out as much as actual people.

This is one of the things that makes me skeptic about the movement. Rarely are games that are quite open and fair acknowledged as a good step towards properly portraying both men and women in video games as "people" rather than objects, it's more about constant criticism and demanding more rather than appreciating and encouraging what is there.

 

[ThriKreen]

It's called confirmation bias [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias].

Then again it is Saints Row, they'll just dismiss it because it features strippers as homies and that's sexist. But to be fair to Miss. You Know Who, she's just focusing just on games that are sexist, not looking for games that fairly represent women. I hope she'll do a follow up series of that topic though, it's one thing to criticize, it's another to show how it can be properly done.

Hmm... I wonder, maybe someone should make a game where there's a scenario where you have to infiltrate a male strip club.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Maybe because Saint's Row is equally full of strippers, sexualized violence and rape jokes?

Don't get me wrong, I like Saint's Row and I do so in part because it actually has a diverse cast of protagonists and antagonists and allows for great customization of the PC (At least in 3 and 4). But just as much as it gets right it also gets wrong or doesn't get at all. It is a game that takes refuge in audacity for its' humor to work, but just because you are making a joking it doesn't give you a free pass. If you will, you can look at Saint's Row and see both the high end of representation in gaming and the low end. It is a paradox like that.

 

[Erttheking]

With all due respect, do you even follow what any feminists say besides what's reported in the news?

 

[Keoul]

Because they are here to criticize what's wrong with the industry not what's right.
So they're just going to ignore any game that contradicts their ideas and theories. Kinda the reason why you don't see any games mentioned in her videos that kinda go against her message, that and she glosses over details of the games she does pick that goes against her message like the whole Krystal thing which she forgot to mention was a game that let you choose to play either a boy (Sabre) or a girl (Krystal).

 

[siomasm]

With all due respect, do you even follow what any feminists say besides what's reported in the news?

"Big name feminists" I understand many femenists are level headed and generally sickened by the extremeists who hog the spotlight.

Maybe because Saint's Row is equally full of strippers, sexualized violence and rape jokes?

I don't recall any sexualized violence aside from hitting people with a giant dildo. I mean, slicing people through with a chainsaw until they fall into two seperate meatly halves is fine, but have a dildo shaped like a bat and it's all over? Or punt people in the groin? Cmon.

And rape jokes? where? Maybe there was one or two throughout the entire series...care to point one out?

And there are strippers and nudity from both sexes.

 

[Something Amyss]

Name a few. Go on.

Of course, that aside, the games aren't perfect. The games have plenty of sexist elements. I'm not particularly sure why they would necessarily be lauded by these amorphous "top feminists," except in the chargen department.

So that's....one positive thing.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I don't recall any sexualized violence aside from hitting people with a giant dildo. I mean, slicing people through with a chainsaw until they fall into two seperate meatly halves is fine, but have a dildo shaped like a bat and it's all over? Or punt people in the groin? Cmon.

There's also the Gimp kart chase in SR3, or the two or three times you do battle in Safe Word. Then there's the Rectifier from SR4, which is literally something you ram into your opponents ass to kill them. Not to mention how how the Morningstar women look just like strippers.

As I said, I don't mind much. To me these are all parts of Saint's Row over the top whackiness and in good fun. But it isn't exactly hard to make a case for Saint's Row being a little too heavy on sexualization of women (in the Morning star example the men are dressed in suits, the women in mini tops, latex hotpants and fishnet stockings) or sexual violence. It is akin to how letting someone sleep in your apartment doesn't make you slapping them around alright.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

I have seen it talked about a bit here and there. The game doesn't really present itself as anything other then the silly neighbor to GTA. There is more to it then that, but you have to play the game to see it. Then the game dose have it's own problems. You know with activities like snatch. (My personal pet problem is they default character they use in the Ads and trailers is gerneic white guy. It's one of the problems with how the game presents itself.)

 

[siomasm]

I don't recall any sexualized violence aside from hitting people with a giant dildo. I mean, slicing people through with a chainsaw until they fall into two seperate meatly halves is fine, but have a dildo shaped like a bat and it's all over? Or punt people in the groin? Cmon.

There's also the Gimp kart chase in SR3

Not sexual violence. Violence with sexual things occurring around it, sure. You're also neglecting this is after releasing various women who were victims of human trafficking. The gimps are also male and female, so there is no sexual bias, which is what the femenist complaints are about. Same thing applies to safe word, no sexual bias. Male and female gimps.

Then there's the Rectifier from SR4, which is literally something you ram into your opponents ass to kill them. Not to mention how how the Morningstar women look just like strippers.

Morningsta women are dressed like this not because they are being opressed by a patriarchy, but because they are using their sexuality as a weapon. These are not meek women forced into subserviant roles, they are warriors and killers alongside men. What does it matter what they wear?
Alternatively the morningstar men look like suave eurocentric gentelmen in well fitted suits which tends to be more sexually appealing to women than men running around half naked, while if you want some male nudity, oleg runs around naked for the entire first mission in which you meet him.

As I said, I don't mind much. To me these are all parts of Saint's Row over the top whackiness and in good fun. But it isn't exactly hard to make a case for Saint's Row being a little too heavy on sexualization of women (in the Morning star example the men are dressed in suits, the women in mini tops, latex hotpants and fishnet stockings) or sexual violence. It is akin to how letting someone sleep in your apartment doesn't make you slapping them around alright.

Sexualization, sure. But they are pretty even in doling it out to both sides. The main topic is gender roles, stereotypes and specifically targeting a gender for certain behaviors.
In comparison to the vast majority of games, Saints row dishes it out equally between men and women with wacky and reckless abandon, treating everyone like People as opposed to objects.

It doesn't make women just to be rescued, dress them all like whores, or force them to exist purely for the sake of male enjoyment. They are fighters and weaklings, idiots and geniuses, women who flaunt their sexuality with skimpy clothes, those who wear a baggy sweater and sweat pants, and those who wear well tailored suits.

And of course you can be any one of them as the protagonist of the game!

If you're an equalist and a realist, I don't see how you could find much better. And really now, comparing wearing something sexy to domestic abuse is pretty low.

 

[nuclearday]

Well... how many "big name feminists" are there in the gaming world, really?

I agree more public attention should be brought to positive examples in games - more can be achieved by celebrating good examples than constant focus on the negative. I never quite managed to beat Saints Row 1 (and that was years ago) so I don't really know enough about any of the newer ones in the series to comment on that.

Basically, the OP means Anita Sarkeesian, I think it's safe to assume. So she's not a perfect person and makes mistakes, and not the best presenter in the universe, but somehow she ended up being the face of all of this. My understanding is that there's still a number of videos to go in her series and they've been releasing at rather a snail's pace. One of those videos is scheduled to be dedicated towards positive examples in gaming - maybe she should've made that one a bit earlier, but...

Still, a less-than-holistic approach towards examining tolerance and inclusivity in gaming isn't the end of the world and doesn't mean that there's nothing to gain from a critical look at persistent and predominant problems.

A quick google search brought me some lists people had made of games they felt had progressive female representations in them, it's not like everyone's ignoring all of those games; but again I would agree that a more positive focus on those games would be productive.

 

[white_wolf]

Maybe because Saint's Row is equally full of strippers, sexualized violence and rape jokes?

Hey this alone would probably turn off most feminist, I know I didn't enjoy playing saint's row 3 because of all that. They didn't care (much) that I was a woman and you know might want to stare at hot guys for my parties nope...crashing someelse's party full of fem strippers was one thing when I'm tossing my own party and its full of fem stripers no male I got a bit of problem. I did like free roam and curtain scenes in general like when you have to drop Shani again in the air and fly through the airplane to kill the guy that playing as a woman was an awesome scene so I stuck around for free roam and moments not the actual plot. I'm liking Saint's 4's plot a bit more then 3 but I'm not even half way through.

 

[synobal]

Maybe because Saint's Row is equally full of strippers, sexualized violence and rape jokes?

We can't have strippers, sexualized violence, or rape jokes now? This is why I don't get these feminists they are so busy censoring everything they don't even realize what they are doing.

They stand up and say "NO no you can't have that it might offend someone somewhere or something" and yet if you look at any mature media they have that and more. Why should we let these social critics kill video gaming when compared to other art forms its still in its awkward teen years.

 

[Sea Sponge]

Hmm... I wonder, maybe someone should make a game where there's a scenario where you have to infiltrate a male strip club.

I was sat at my PC dabbling in a bit of ArcheAge when my wife started watching a documentary about male strippers. They called themselves "willy wigglers" and it was, quite possibly, the strangest thing i've seen to date.

 

[norashepard]

Yo I love Saints Row but I'm gonna say right here right now that you can't be trans. You can be a man or a woman with the opposite's voice. You can have a strange in-the-middle body type (in 2 and 2 alone), but the game still treats you like whatever gender you picked to begin with (or more often no gender at all). But you're not trans and the game doesn't acknowledge you as such even if you try to be. It's all in the realm of head-canons.

Though lots of feminists I know do still love the series for its representation (not just of the Boss, but in the Saints in general). Perhaps you just, uh, don't listen? Or look for them at all? It's a pretty common thing for Saints Row to be brought up in these discussions, even with its imperfections.

 

[briankoontz]

Saints Row is utterly fucking ridiculous. I mean that in a good way, but because the games are so silly a lot of critics don't take them seriously. It's like taking a clown seriously - one can admire the skill of a clown but there's always a nagging feeling that you're being mocked.

Saints Row can only be enjoyed by people who at the very least can put on hold their sense of their own seriousness.