Why don't undead freeze in winter?

[DoPo]

The number of people here who prefer to default to "fiction, ergo no effort required to engage imagination" is saddening. The OP made it clear he knew we were discussing the fiction, so why even bother to post if you're not going to engage the topic creatively?

Because of the sheer variety of undead in fiction, it's impossible to give a satisfactory answer. And, in fact, by accepting the zombies can exist, you have to accept that zombies can exist - there isn't a further stretch of the imagination needed to accept they exist under some condition but the rest of their existence goes unchallenged by any doubt. It's the same stretch of the imagination. It's part of the initial premise. By being OK with the undead as a premise, you've already acknowledged they cannot be but are. By saying "but under these circumstances they are improbable" is bizarre as they are impossible under all.

So all this means that unless talking about specific undead, where perhaps some rules and explanation is established, there is little reason to "engage creatively". It's like trying to find an answer to "why are the suits yellow?" - there may be a variety of reasons depending on what exactly are we talking about but without any specifics...they just are.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I mean, if you go by Max Brooks Zombie Survival Guide, the undead DO freeze. So in case of the Zombie Apocalypse, you would want to head north.

But you still gotta kill the fuckers while they're frozen because they'll thaw come spring/summer.

alternatively, I think Max Brooks' also says they can exist indefinently in the arid deserts. No moisture? No decay.

A Zombie in a temperate climate will exist for about 5 years, afterwards it's body is so decayed it can't function.

 

[RJ 17]

Wow, I'm surprised at how many responses start with something along the lines of "Because they're fictional..." or "Because they don't/can't exist..."

Is it so hard to realize that the OP is - by the very nature of the topic - talking about ideas in a fictional universe regarding frozen zombies? Is it that hard to just play along, or just more fun to be snarky?

For instance, since zombies via necromancy, the answer to all questions is a simple "magic", however for more science-based zombies it often involves some kind of virus. This virus could infuse the corpse with regenerative genes to slow down decay. Perhaps the virus is able to adapt at an alarming rate, in the game Plague Inc. you can evolve an ability with the zombie virus that makes your zombies begin secreting a biological insecticide to keep the bugs from getting to them.

In terms of the original "do they freeze" question, if they stop moving they would. But even if they did, I'd imagine they'd still be conscious and - as Topaz said - are likely strong enough to break free. Zombies/undead busting out of ice has been used in a few different games.

 

[DoPo]

Wow, I'm surprised at how many responses start with something along the lines of "Because they're fictional..." or "Because they don't/can't exist..."

Is it so hard to realize that the OP is - by the very nature of the topic - talking about ideas in a fictional universe regarding frozen zombies? Is it that hard to just play along, or just more fun to be snarky?

Because of the sheer variety of undead in fiction, it's impossible to give a satisfactory answer. And, in fact, by accepting the zombies can exist, you have to accept that zombies can exist - there isn't a further stretch of the imagination needed to accept they exist under some condition but the rest of their existence goes unchallenged by any doubt. It's the same stretch of the imagination. It's part of the initial premise. By being OK with the undead as a premise, you've already acknowledged they cannot be but are. By saying "but under these circumstances they are improbable" is bizarre as they are impossible under all.

So all this means that unless talking about specific undead, where perhaps some rules and explanation is established, there is little reason to "engage creatively". It's like trying to find an answer to "why are the suits yellow?" - there may be a variety of reasons depending on what exactly are we talking about but without any specifics...they just are.

In terms of the original "do they freeze" question

And this especially, as presented here, is utterly bizarre. Here:

Ok, yeah, undead, silly idea as it is, but I like the idea of undead monsters running around in the snow where humans have trouble existing.

So the premise is that undead exist and they exist in the cold. And not only that, there is the acknowledgement that they can't, shouldn't and even then have no business being there as even humans aren't really around.

So, yes, in short, if you've accepted all that already, then it's fiction. As simple as that.

 

[Olas]

In Max Brooks' World War Z and The Zombie Survival Guide they do.

They also thaw out when winter ends.

This ^

There's an entire chapter in World War Z about the struggles of a family who had to migrate north into the cold to escape the zombies. I believe it ends with the narrator confused as to why the zombies are able to survive being frozen and then thawed out, since the freezing should rupture their cell membranes. I don't think an explanation is ever given but the mere fact that it's brought up shows how much consideration the author gave.

 

[Batou667]

If they're fantasy-world, Necromancer-summoned zombies, then I suppose the magical setting excuses zombies because they're animated corpses - basically skeleton warriors but meatier. They don't need metabolic functions or sustenance or even intact muscle fibers to function, it's just magic.

But zombies of the "infected" variety? They're mostly depicted as having some metabolic function (hence why they need to eat people) so you'd expect them to be above ambient temperature. Possibly even warmer than a normal human if they're the 28 Days Later "runner" type with a feverish, rabid disposition. So, they'd be able to survive some cold weather... although you'd also expect the cold to sap their energy and even kill them through exhaustion, even if it wasn't cold enough to literally freeze them solid.

But then, infected zombies don't make a whole load of sense anyway. By rights they should be markedly slower and weaker than an average human due to starvation and decomposition. An Infected trapped in a building with no food and water ought to die in three days, same as a human, unless their metabolism was slowed to a crawl (but they'd be so weak they would barely pose a threat to any survivors who came across them). Most zombies are portrayed as having injuries so severe or extensive that they should be immobile, or lacking the central nervous system functions required to sense and pursue humans (the majority of zombies should be vegetables). Also, why are Infected usually depicted as traveling in groups and prioritising uninfected humans as food? Surely they'd turn on each other preferentially as other zombies represent both competition for, and an easy source of, food?

Since even "sensible" zombies are ultimately unrealistic works of fiction, any answer is equally valid.

 

[michael87cn]

why does magic simply not work? I mean, it's not real, right?

Oh. Yeah. Answer your question, m8?

 

[michael87cn]

okay fine cuz... running water. zombies are always moving, so.... movies particles.

explained away good person! explained away.

 

[Jux]

Ok, yeah, undead, silly idea as it is, but I like the idea of undead monsters running around in the snow where humans have trouble existing. Castles made of ice surrounded by lifeless snow. Possibly being covered by snow and jumping out when someone walks too close.

OTOH, if they don't have metabolic functions and don't produce heat, then they'd end up at the same temperature as everything else (good for now showing up on thermographics). If that was cold enough, they'd freeze solid and be unable to move (not so good).

Zombies that are killed by their brain being destroyed would probably need to keep their brains above the temperature at which the fluid inside freezes, otherwise the expansion would wreck the brain. Or, at least with repeated freezing and thawing.

So, do the undead need to keep themselves warm, just not as warm as humans, or is there some other way they could get around this (apart from "just some kind of unspecified magic")?

Because reasons I guess. Same reasons why the undead don't under go putrefaction like normal dead bodies do.

A google search of 'how zombies work' turned this up. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/strange-creatures/zombie.htm and this http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2010/10/29/delay-the-decay-how-zombie-biology-would-work/ the second link is probably what you're looking for.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Ok, yeah, undead, silly idea as it is, but I like the idea of undead monsters running around in the snow where humans have trouble existing. Castles made of ice surrounded by lifeless snow. Possibly being covered by snow and jumping out when someone walks too close.

OTOH, if they don't have metabolic functions and don't produce heat, then they'd end up at the same temperature as everything else (good for now showing up on thermographics). If that was cold enough, they'd freeze solid and be unable to move (not so good).

Zombies that are killed by their brain being destroyed would probably need to keep their brains above the temperature at which the fluid inside freezes, otherwise the expansion would wreck the brain. Or, at least with repeated freezing and thawing.

So, do the undead need to keep themselves warm, just not as warm as humans, or is there some other way they could get around this (apart from "just some kind of unspecified magic")?

Personally I always assumed they just froze solid but then thawed out just as brain-hungry as ever, even centuries later.

<a href=http://zombieresearchsociety.com/archives/2137>This amusing little article gives a movie-science example of how it could work, however.

 

[Schadrach]

I've always wondered if not having to answer this question is why the Walking Dead is set in the South.

 

[RedDeadFred]

If you take the Draugr from Skyrim for instance, I always assumed they were simply strong enough to break free from any ice they happened to be entombed in.

That would mean being having ice surround them rather than their bones and flesh themselves freezing. In the case of draugr, and most undead, I think they've probably got some kind of internal heating that goes along with whatever force is driving them.

Or we could just accept that them not freezing in winter is significantly less ridiculous than them existing in the first place and just suspend our disbelief.

 

[ISearchForTraps]

Bad Writing, or A Wizard Did It.

 

[Callate]

One possibility: the process of becoming a zombie (because we are talking about zombies, right?) causes the fluids that course through and lubricate their systems to become something other than water. Ethyl alcohol, for example, has a freezing point of 173 degrees Fahrenheit, though this would naturally make the zombies significantly more flammable. (I have to admit, though, part of me is amused by the idea that zombies are fermenting.) A significant increase in the salinity of their fluids would have a similar effect.

'Course, if they're animated by voodoo or magic or something similar, that's all the explanation that's really necessary.

 

[Kathinka]

i'd say there is no real explanation for it. it's friggin zombies, so i guess just roll with it. if you pick it appart too much, you'll notice that the entire scenario is absolutely implausible for several reasons.

- ever heard of that one time when that one dog in america got the rabies, and a month later all dogs had rabies? no? that's because biting is an absolutely terrible method of spreading disease.
- zombies main food source is also their number one predator, which makes their survival incredibly unlikely. if that wasn't bad enough, it's also their only way of procreation.
- aside from freezing, which would affect true undead a lot but also infected humans severely, there's simple the thing that the undead would start rotting and literally fall apart in a matter of weeks.
- the world is full of zombie proof obstacles that they are unable to overcome
the list goes on.
tl;dr: zombies, even if existent, wouldn't be a real thread and are just a popular power fantasy among nerdy neckbeards that want to escape their lives (hurray for offensive hyperbole), don't take it any serious and just have fun.

 

[GeneralFungi]

The food that they eat is enough to adjust their temperatures for a short amount of time, as well as any shelter. Meaning the zombies that you see are the lucky ones, that wandered into food and shelter. Vampires actively seek food and shelter, and body warmth.

Plus, if they do freeze they can just thaw out later.

If they thawed out after all of the liquids in their body were frozen solid I'd be surprised if they were in any condition to move at all. Ice expanding into all of their blood vessels and muscle tissue would destroy most if not all of the flesh and probably paralyze them. I'm also doubtful that any disease that existed in the body would survive without a warm host carrying it.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

The food that they eat is enough to adjust their temperatures for a short amount of time, as well as any shelter. Meaning the zombies that you see are the lucky ones, that wandered into food and shelter. Vampires actively seek food and shelter, and body warmth.

Plus, if they do freeze they can just thaw out later.

If they thawed out after all of the liquids in their body were frozen solid I'd be surprised if they were in any condition to move at all. Ice expanding into all of their blood vessels and muscle tissue would destroy most if not all of the flesh and probably paralyze them. I'm also doubtful that any disease that existed in the body would survive without a warm host carrying it.

You have to take into account that dead things moving was already a possibility in the first place. I did not invent the rules, just trying to play with in them. If one were to keep questioning the simplest explanation of fiction, everything about it would come a part. Suspension of disbelief works only when you suspend disbelief.

It's fun and fine to dissect the fiction. But if dissection and not dispelling is the goal, one must stay consistent to the source marital. Dead things are animate.

EDIT: Sorry if I am just restating something already said. I have not been keeping up with this thread. But I will go back and read it as soon as I can.

 

[Cryselle]

I've always wondered if not having to answer this question is why the Walking Dead is set in the South.

I think it's more that the South is just a lot better venue for the whole idea. Zombies require humans. Not just because of predation or reproduction, but because what makes a zombie story is usually the interaction between the zombies and the humans, and how humanity deals with the whole mess. Somewhere like northern Canada just doesn't have enough humans around to build much of a story, whereas the southern US has a very good mix of urban, rural, and areas where people live in the bush, all in close enough proximity to each other that you can showcase how the problem has affected each way of life with a minimum of artistic license on the distances.

 

[coheedswicked]

I would say a good rule of thumb is if it's cold enough for humans to freeze without any shelter, fire, etc... it's cold enough for zombies to freeze... ignoring all the other science you have to circumvent for a zombie to exist... being made out of the exact same molecules they would have the same freezing point

 

[cleric of the order]

I Feel this is relevant
Depends on the type of undead, flesh puppets are flesh puppet and will continue to move to their orders long after their musculature rots away but you need to give them a chance.
I figure that dark armies of the undead prefer warmer climates because of the ease the dead can be raised but for the sake of assaulting a northern city I suspect the undead handlers will have torches to keep them from totally frosting over.
I could see armies of zombies marching along side Will o' the wisps and witch lights with necromancers dotting between the ranks with burning censors cackling like imps.