Why Dragon Age 2 failed...
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It failed because it was called "Dragon Age 2" and was radically different from the first. The only people who really liked it either didn't play Origins or didn't like it. People who like both seem to be pretty rare.
The fact that the game is mediocre is just coincidence.
The fact that the game is mediocre is just coincidence.
They were going to give us Nathaniel but took him away at the last moment? I am genuinely saddened by this :'(80Maxwell08 said:
I confess, I didn't thoroughly read the post. I saw "Dragon Age 2 failed," was overwhelmed by thoughts of "Oh, it's THIS thread again..." and then replied accordingly.endtherapture said:
With a focus on "atmosphere," there isn't as much dead-horse-beating as those who focus on "combat" or "story" as perceived failures, but it still isn't really a new complaint.
Honestly, I actually really like Dragon Age 2, not quite as much as Origins, but I certainly don't hate it.
The biggest problem I think was due to it being a rush job, which is clearly evident from the recycled environments and the "enemies spawn out of nowhere" combat which definitely didn't have the same tactical feeling that DA:O had.
The story probably also took a hit from the rush job, given how everything quickly came to a conclusion in act 3. Though I did like the more personal angle of Hawke's tale as opposed to the "Save the world/galaxy/country" formula that's usually played in Bioware's games and I found that to be a nice touch.
I do agree with the OP on the music, somewhat. Though I do like some tracks in DA2, there aren't quite as many memorable ones as there were in Origins. And as I recall Inon Zur was one of the first to, offhandedly, admit that DA2 was rushed.
Overall I think the game would've been a lot better, and wouldn't have received anywhere near as much scorn if it had another half year or so of development. I'm willing to wait longer if it means I get a better game. Hopefully this lesson will be learned for DA3.
The biggest problem I think was due to it being a rush job, which is clearly evident from the recycled environments and the "enemies spawn out of nowhere" combat which definitely didn't have the same tactical feeling that DA:O had.
The story probably also took a hit from the rush job, given how everything quickly came to a conclusion in act 3. Though I did like the more personal angle of Hawke's tale as opposed to the "Save the world/galaxy/country" formula that's usually played in Bioware's games and I found that to be a nice touch.
I do agree with the OP on the music, somewhat. Though I do like some tracks in DA2, there aren't quite as many memorable ones as there were in Origins. And as I recall Inon Zur was one of the first to, offhandedly, admit that DA2 was rushed.
Overall I think the game would've been a lot better, and wouldn't have received anywhere near as much scorn if it had another half year or so of development. I'm willing to wait longer if it means I get a better game. Hopefully this lesson will be learned for DA3.
Neverwinter Nights Original Campaign was a horrible disjointed generic badly written piece of rubbish, so full of pot holes I could have drained my vegetables in it. Not getting along with it is not only perfectly valid but sensible.Steampunk Viking said:
The music? Seriously?
I didnt notice the music in either of the games, so far as I can remember.
I didnt notice the music in either of the games, so far as I can remember.
Why did Dragon Age 2 fail? Now there's a question.
Dragon Age: Origins
In my opinion the failings for Dragon Age 2 can only be explained were the series originally began Dragon Age Origins. Now it wasn't Dragon Age Origins itself that was the problem but rather the success that came from it, this is my personal opinion but I feel that Bioware wasn't expecting the game to receive as big a following as it did. The result of its success spurred excitement throughout and the demand for another game was inevitable, yet the Origins story was told so well that the game acted as standalone title. After all the goals were completed, the character's futures were summarized in the Epilogue and your Wardens final decision sealed their chapter either through their death or the unknown ritual.
Dragon Age Awakening and DLC
DLC was then expected to tie some of the knots but instead we received a expansion, Dragon Age Awakening. Now this is where the alarm bell's should have started ringing for me, despite it providing a expansion to the land of Fereldan, introducing new characters and giving us an insight into the Grey Warden's Order and remaining to capture the atmosphere of the first game. The game coincidentally undermined every player's decision of killing their Warden in Origins by allowing to import your save file.
Though the option to make a new character was present it still didn't remove the sour taste. Awakening itself was a brilliant expansion but suffered some terrible glitches, design flaws and the plot-line and narrative felt rushed. The other pieces of DLC helped us get our fix but didn't do much to address the remaining questions about Morrigan and Flemeth. In my opinion and mine alone, I feel that if enough time was invested in the game Dragon Age Awakening should have acted as the sequel.
None the less...later on Dragon Age 2 was announced.
As much as I love the game anyone can easily see this game was rushed and shipped as quickly as possible. The reason behind this decision I think was because Bioware/EA saw that there was a huge gap between the next Mass Effect game and they wanted to close that gap with another title and Dragon Age was there to fill the gap. Unfortunately their decision backfired because once ME3 was delayed and Dragon Age 2 was under the spotlight it crumbled.
What could we change to make Dragon Age 2 amazing?
Hawke
I understand Bioware?s approach with the sequel, with a new game you would need a new hero. Hawke filled that criterion but unfortunately because Hawke had a pre-set background and a basic personality every decision you made felt unimportant and added little impact. Which in contrast to the Warden and Sheperd could be forged anyway you wanted because the player selected the Origins and each decision created the character how you wanted, with the introduction with Hawke it didn?t feel like that could be achieved.
This could have been easily solved with the use of the template Origin stories and races that featured in the first game. By recreating this it would have added alot more depth both to the characterisation and the story allowing the player to forge their Champion rather than just being the Champion.
The Introduction of Family Members
The Introduction of the Hawke family caught my attention when it was first announced, I thought it would be cool to explore and forge/break bonds with family members when fleeing the Blight and the Templar?s. However any meaningful interaction was destroyed when you?re forced to lose one of your siblings at the very beginning of the game you don?t feel any shred of remorse as you have no insight to either of their characters until after their timely death. Any sense of choice is stripped away and you?re either stuck with Bethany or Carver.
Not only that but when you do start investing time into your family their later massacre is more an annoyance than emotional journey. The only exception was the scene in the deep roads when I first lost Carver after we became closer as brothers, it was the only moment in the game where I felt I lost something of value.
Kirkwall
Investing 3 years of your protagonist?s life sounded like a great artistic move. However the size of this grand city was anything but reasonable the Capital city felt so small and exploration was limited. Over the period of 3 years little changes and no sense of internal conflict is noticeable unless you continue the main quest. Also the recycling of dungeons both within and outside the city was unforgivable.
If Kirkwall was bigger it help destroy this claustrophobic feel to the game, even if the city grew or evolved over the 3 years with creation of new shops, area?s or other feature?s would make Kirkwall appear like an alive bustling Capital like it suppose to be. Include a few random event?s highlighting the internal struggle and you have a continuity in theme, also by allowing travelling freedom to other area?s would expand the world. Also creativity in dungeon variety wouldn?t be that much to ask for.
Plot
Was there a plot?
Ok that might be too unkind, there was the continual tension between the Mages and Templar?s which we could relate to from the first game. However as I player it felt like a giant cofluffle their wasn?t a clear threat to Hawke or his family. At first it was the Blight, then it?s survival, which then leads him into the mines where he finds Dwarf hell, then the Qunari kick off and then a final revolution between the Mages and Templars.
There?s alot that needed to be addressed with this game, it was great but too sketchy and wishy-washy. It felt like a really neat piece introducing some new concepts to the series but it didn?t appear to have a clear goal and the cameos were awfully integrated. Dragon Age 2 wasn?t great enough to stand on its own it felt like it was meant to be apart of something greater in the realm but didn?t quite deleiver.
Dragon Age: Origins
In my opinion the failings for Dragon Age 2 can only be explained were the series originally began Dragon Age Origins. Now it wasn't Dragon Age Origins itself that was the problem but rather the success that came from it, this is my personal opinion but I feel that Bioware wasn't expecting the game to receive as big a following as it did. The result of its success spurred excitement throughout and the demand for another game was inevitable, yet the Origins story was told so well that the game acted as standalone title. After all the goals were completed, the character's futures were summarized in the Epilogue and your Wardens final decision sealed their chapter either through their death or the unknown ritual.
Dragon Age Awakening and DLC
DLC was then expected to tie some of the knots but instead we received a expansion, Dragon Age Awakening. Now this is where the alarm bell's should have started ringing for me, despite it providing a expansion to the land of Fereldan, introducing new characters and giving us an insight into the Grey Warden's Order and remaining to capture the atmosphere of the first game. The game coincidentally undermined every player's decision of killing their Warden in Origins by allowing to import your save file.
Though the option to make a new character was present it still didn't remove the sour taste. Awakening itself was a brilliant expansion but suffered some terrible glitches, design flaws and the plot-line and narrative felt rushed. The other pieces of DLC helped us get our fix but didn't do much to address the remaining questions about Morrigan and Flemeth. In my opinion and mine alone, I feel that if enough time was invested in the game Dragon Age Awakening should have acted as the sequel.
None the less...later on Dragon Age 2 was announced.
As much as I love the game anyone can easily see this game was rushed and shipped as quickly as possible. The reason behind this decision I think was because Bioware/EA saw that there was a huge gap between the next Mass Effect game and they wanted to close that gap with another title and Dragon Age was there to fill the gap. Unfortunately their decision backfired because once ME3 was delayed and Dragon Age 2 was under the spotlight it crumbled.
What could we change to make Dragon Age 2 amazing?
Hawke
I understand Bioware?s approach with the sequel, with a new game you would need a new hero. Hawke filled that criterion but unfortunately because Hawke had a pre-set background and a basic personality every decision you made felt unimportant and added little impact. Which in contrast to the Warden and Sheperd could be forged anyway you wanted because the player selected the Origins and each decision created the character how you wanted, with the introduction with Hawke it didn?t feel like that could be achieved.
This could have been easily solved with the use of the template Origin stories and races that featured in the first game. By recreating this it would have added alot more depth both to the characterisation and the story allowing the player to forge their Champion rather than just being the Champion.
The Introduction of Family Members
The Introduction of the Hawke family caught my attention when it was first announced, I thought it would be cool to explore and forge/break bonds with family members when fleeing the Blight and the Templar?s. However any meaningful interaction was destroyed when you?re forced to lose one of your siblings at the very beginning of the game you don?t feel any shred of remorse as you have no insight to either of their characters until after their timely death. Any sense of choice is stripped away and you?re either stuck with Bethany or Carver.
Not only that but when you do start investing time into your family their later massacre is more an annoyance than emotional journey. The only exception was the scene in the deep roads when I first lost Carver after we became closer as brothers, it was the only moment in the game where I felt I lost something of value.
Kirkwall
Investing 3 years of your protagonist?s life sounded like a great artistic move. However the size of this grand city was anything but reasonable the Capital city felt so small and exploration was limited. Over the period of 3 years little changes and no sense of internal conflict is noticeable unless you continue the main quest. Also the recycling of dungeons both within and outside the city was unforgivable.
If Kirkwall was bigger it help destroy this claustrophobic feel to the game, even if the city grew or evolved over the 3 years with creation of new shops, area?s or other feature?s would make Kirkwall appear like an alive bustling Capital like it suppose to be. Include a few random event?s highlighting the internal struggle and you have a continuity in theme, also by allowing travelling freedom to other area?s would expand the world. Also creativity in dungeon variety wouldn?t be that much to ask for.
Plot
Was there a plot?
Ok that might be too unkind, there was the continual tension between the Mages and Templar?s which we could relate to from the first game. However as I player it felt like a giant cofluffle their wasn?t a clear threat to Hawke or his family. At first it was the Blight, then it?s survival, which then leads him into the mines where he finds Dwarf hell, then the Qunari kick off and then a final revolution between the Mages and Templars.
There?s alot that needed to be addressed with this game, it was great but too sketchy and wishy-washy. It felt like a really neat piece introducing some new concepts to the series but it didn?t appear to have a clear goal and the cameos were awfully integrated. Dragon Age 2 wasn?t great enough to stand on its own it felt like it was meant to be apart of something greater in the realm but didn?t quite deleiver.
I honestly don't agree with you on the music, that's one area that I think DA2 lived up to the original. Do a youtube search for the DA2 themes. Not only are they pretty good, they are actually quite similar to a lot of the themes in DA:O.
The rest of it, yeah. DA2's biggest problem was lack of development time. It was rushed out sequel that needed more TLC before release. Also some bad design decisions, but that's something for another time.
The rest of it, yeah. DA2's biggest problem was lack of development time. It was rushed out sequel that needed more TLC before release. Also some bad design decisions, but that's something for another time.
The Plot (more like plod).
There is no over-arching polt device. In DA:O there were two, the massive army of Darkspawn and the Usurper. In DA2 I think it was to do with what happened to the Champion, but what you told (play) can be figured out by most people.
DA:O had great pacing for its story, but with DA2 it was more of a meander than a heart-poundingly good run. There was no real meaning to it and I still cannot muster the initiative to get past Act 2, the dullest one so far.
The blatant recycling of the maps certainly didn't help either. If they even blacked out the area you couldn't get to, it would've improved it slightly. But my biggest complaint is the plot.
There is no over-arching polt device. In DA:O there were two, the massive army of Darkspawn and the Usurper. In DA2 I think it was to do with what happened to the Champion, but what you told (play) can be figured out by most people.
DA:O had great pacing for its story, but with DA2 it was more of a meander than a heart-poundingly good run. There was no real meaning to it and I still cannot muster the initiative to get past Act 2, the dullest one so far.
The blatant recycling of the maps certainly didn't help either. If they even blacked out the area you couldn't get to, it would've improved it slightly. But my biggest complaint is the plot.
I've listened to the themes, it's not that they're not good, it's that they don't fit the game at all.Krantos said:
DA2 is set in a cosmopolitan crowded city which is very slowly crumbling from the inside. It's a busy hub of activity that is slowly decaying as the story goes on, eventually leading to several conflicts in the city. It's also a sequel so you know the world it's set in, so there is slightly less mystery, especially as you're in the same place the whole game so there is a sense of familiarity. None of these are conveyed in the musical themes, which borrow heavily from DA:O, which has a complete different feel to DA2.
DA:O is set in a wilderness land on the edge of the known world, beset by barbarians, surrounded by frigid mountains, and under attack by a great evil that is threatening to destroy the country more as each day passes. It's in a state of crisis, and times are very dark, everywhere is under siege by some force. It's also a brand new setting so there is A LOT of mystery ongoing. You're going to unexplored ruins in vast abandoned underground caverns, dark twisted forests, isolated mountain towns etc. The musical themes encapsulate the bleak plight of the country and the barren landscapes very well.
Using similar scores for these two vastly contrasting places doesn't make sense. I understand they're trying to maintain continuity but the two settings are so absolutely different that the DA:O themes don't make sense in DA2.
It'd be like using the Harry Potter music in Lord of the Rings.
I've only played the demo for Dragon Age 2. 'Twas an RPG no more.
It was rushed, and like the OP said, it had no atmosphere what so ever. It did take one and a half years to make, after all. Also like what Yahtzee said, the game was only made for the money since the previous game was a success. Yeah, this thread is pretty accurate, but why did it take this long to make after the game's release?
You're right.
It was rushed, and like the OP said, it had no atmosphere what so ever. It did take one and a half years to make, after all. Also like what Yahtzee said, the game was only made for the money since the previous game was a success. Yeah, this thread is pretty accurate, but why did it take this long to make after the game's release?
xXxJessicaxXx said:
Indeed, though I DID buy it...eventually. Two weeks ago to be precise.Anthraxus said:
While the amount of choice in the game is nice...it's still very cut and paste, it didn't feel like they put much work into it, especially if you compare it to Mass Effect.
And well yeah...the stupid combat system is another issue.
DA2 was a failure because it was rushed. Simple as that. It had all the signs of a rushed game.
1) Lackluster story.
2) Re-used environments.
3) Poor customization/choice.
That was basically it. If the game had another 6-9 months in development it could have been amazing. The combat in particular was a huge step up from DA:O in my opinion. I wasn't a huge fan of the loooong ability cooldowns or the archer enemies leaping down from the castle walls every 8 seconds, but overall the combat was MUCH more fun than DA:Os slow strategic grind.
1) Lackluster story.
2) Re-used environments.
3) Poor customization/choice.
That was basically it. If the game had another 6-9 months in development it could have been amazing. The combat in particular was a huge step up from DA:O in my opinion. I wasn't a huge fan of the loooong ability cooldowns or the archer enemies leaping down from the castle walls every 8 seconds, but overall the combat was MUCH more fun than DA:Os slow strategic grind.
I have one thing I really, REALLY hated about Dragon Age 2 that I haven't seen anyone else talk about.
The hype about the Champion of Kirkwall.
Throughout the trailers and the game, the Champion is talked about like he's (I'm just gonna stick with 'he' to make writing easier)some big deal. Like he chew's nails for breakfast and could kill dragons in his sleep. As if he weren't just 'on par' with the Hero of Ferelden, but BETTER than the Hero of Ferelden.
Turns out he's just some nosy bastard who can't leave well-enough-alone. I mean, his big climactic battle was a small mage uprising, how does that come close to comparing with ANYTHING from the first game?
So yeah, I guess that's the main reason I disliked DA2, nothing seemed to compare with even side-quests of Origins.
I realize this was supposed to be Hawke's personal story and all, but that doesn't mean it can't involve epic battles.
And don't compare the whimp from Kirkwall to my dragon-slaying, ale-swigging, duel-wielding she-Elf from Origins, please.
The hype about the Champion of Kirkwall.
Throughout the trailers and the game, the Champion is talked about like he's (I'm just gonna stick with 'he' to make writing easier)some big deal. Like he chew's nails for breakfast and could kill dragons in his sleep. As if he weren't just 'on par' with the Hero of Ferelden, but BETTER than the Hero of Ferelden.
Turns out he's just some nosy bastard who can't leave well-enough-alone. I mean, his big climactic battle was a small mage uprising, how does that come close to comparing with ANYTHING from the first game?
So yeah, I guess that's the main reason I disliked DA2, nothing seemed to compare with even side-quests of Origins.
I realize this was supposed to be Hawke's personal story and all, but that doesn't mean it can't involve epic battles.
And don't compare the whimp from Kirkwall to my dragon-slaying, ale-swigging, duel-wielding she-Elf from Origins, please.