Why I Fight.

[Weaver]

True egalitarianism looks at all people as people and, philosophically, believes all people are of the same fundamental social value and should be treated as such, with the same political, economic, social, and civil rights. I fail to see how this could possibly be accomplished by only focusing on gender as a differentiator. Why align yourself specifically with the injustice of gender inequality, ignoring the other social inequalities? Why not just adopt pure egalitarianism?

Why is there the assumption that if someone cares about gender issues, they can't also care about other issues?

I think you're misunderstanding the thrust of what I was getting at. Egalitarianism is all encompassing as an ideal, "egalitarianism feminism" is not. Which, by the way, is the one and only movement he's chosen to associated himself with. I'm asking why that particular stance is preferable, in his eyes to, to egalitarianism which does not focus only on the inequality of gender.

 

[Something Amyss]

True egalitarianism looks at all people as people and, philosophically, believes all people are of the same fundamental social value and should be treated as such, with the same political, economic, social, and civil rights.

Egalitarian movements have often not been to support specific groups, such a women. While this isn't true in every case, it's a common theme. You can, of course, argue "not TRUE egalitarian," but then you open another can of worms. Part of the problem is how quick "egalitarians" have been to declare issues involving many groups non-issues, or resolved issues. The problem is in perception of equality. The US was founded on the notion that all men were created equal, which already excluded women, but also excluded blacks, Indians, and people of lower social status. The founders of this nation wanted equality for themselves, effectively.

I know, I know, #notallfoundingfathers

I fail to see how this could possibly be accomplished by only focusing on gender as a differentiator. Why align yourself specifically with the injustice of gender inequality, ignoring the other social inequalities? Why not just adopt pure egalitarianism?

Well, because of what I said above, but also I think Thal nailed it in saying that calling yourself a feminist in no way requires you to adopt the attitude of "screw everyone else."

 

[Weaver]

True egalitarianism looks at all people as people and, philosophically, believes all people are of the same fundamental social value and should be treated as such, with the same political, economic, social, and civil rights.

Egalitarian movements have often not been to support specific groups, such a women. While this isn't true in every case, it's a common theme. You can, of course, argue "not TRUE egalitarian," but then you open another can of worms. Part of the problem is how quick "egalitarians" have been to declare issues involving many groups non-issues, or resolved issues. The problem is in perception of equality. The US was founded on the notion that all men were created equal, which already excluded women, but also excluded blacks, Indians, and people of lower social status. The founders of this nation wanted equality for themselves, effectively.

I know, I know, #notallfoundingfathers

I fail to see how this could possibly be accomplished by only focusing on gender as a differentiator. Why align yourself specifically with the injustice of gender inequality, ignoring the other social inequalities? Why not just adopt pure egalitarianism?

Well, because of what I said above, but also I think Thal nailed it in saying that calling yourself a feminist in no way requires you to adopt the attitude of "screw everyone else."

1) Sounds like a very American issue. In Canada I really don't think I've seen this attitude. The (few) people I know who claim egalitarian philosophies go to feminist events (among other events, like basic income support).

2) That's not what I was insinuating, sorry if it came off that way.

 

[Something Amyss]

I feel the need to add to this that, while movements do need help from outsider groups, they shouldn't be doing it on their terms. Otherwise, change never happens.

Indeed. I don't believe in false contrition for the sake of peace. At the same time, I don't actually like to start shit, and I understand why people don't. That said, the quote is very appropriate, and I've found this mentality troubling since I was pretty young.

And I'm adding to this that if you're reading this, and you're ever thinking something like "Your aggressiveness is off-putting me from your movement" or "I'd be with you guys if you weren't so angry", you were never an ally in the first place. Saying shit like that shows that you don't really care if what is good for people gets done as long as its the way that you like it. Its extremely condescending as well, and basically reads like "No, no basic liberties and respect for you until you eat your vegatables and clean your room!" You can have disagreements with whether something is or is not productive, but don't treat these issues like they're a dog treat being waved over our heads, cuz I see way too much as that bullshit.

It is interesting, because to be considered equal, one often has to behave better. And honestly, one of the great earmarks of a problem comes from when people don't understand why you might be angry. Sometimes in life, anger is the appropriate response. A lot of minorities where I live probably should be angrier. And I'm guilty of this myself.

[
1) Sounds like a very American issue. In Canada I really don't think I've seen this attitude. The (few) people I know who claim egalitarian philosophies go to feminist events (among other events, like basic income support).

Only a very American example. This isn't a new or original thing. I've seen it on the internet from pretty much every English-speaking nation. Not sure if any NZers have spoken to the effect, but still. And it honestly sounds like your personal anecdotes swing towards that "no true Scotsman" buit I alluded to earlier. I mean, I'm glad that you haven't experienced that, but you're trying to set the definition based on the set of "people I know."

Even examples like the French Revolution (a topic I'm sure everyone here is sick of), which supposedly expanded basic liberties to women and slaves, saw this sort of issue. Historically, slavery was abolished well before we saw any form of equality from a supposed equality movement. Because even in a supposedly egalitarian society, some people were accepted as "more equal."

I'm sorry, but I have no doubt that this is a Canadian issue as well. Because it's a human issue. Because people have bias towards self and things which resemble them. Don't downplay this as an American issue.

2) That's not what I was insinuating, sorry if it came off that way.

I'm not sure what other way you mean it. Even as you elaborated in a prior post, it still looks like the same issue I'm talking about.

In other words, why not state you are an egalitarian feminist?

But still, I also speak to the larger point I've made: that egalitarianism, or any other large sweeping movement, will almost inevitably sweep some people under the rug. I think these dovetail: not only are issues mutually exclusive, but it is sometimes necessary to go a step beyond. From general to specific.

 

[Erttheking]

SJWs just want to feel like they're changing things for the better, when in reality they're making non-issues into issues just to feed their sense that they are a good person. Specifically for male feminists, these are people who are bad with women, who have really never really talked to a woman. They think that feminism is their chance to finally get a girl to like them. By the same token, it's plain to see that feminists like Rebecca Watson haven't had success with males so they say "If men don't like me I don't like them either" and start their stupid fuckin' crusade against "the patriarchy" that everyone with half a fucking brain knows doesn't exist.

*Looks at self

*Is a male feminst.

*Best friend is a woman.

*Has never had a girlfriend and really doesn't care

Your claim seems pretty baseless. They think that feminism is their chance to get with a girl? Or maybe they think like me and that many of the things feminists beleive in should in reality fall under "basic things decent human beings should just do anyway but the human race is pathetic at living up to even the most basic standards"

The Patriarchy doesn't exist? 90% of government and corporate leaders are not charge out of chance. It's not a roll of the dice. And what about all the double standards against women, especially sex related, where women seem to exist only to please the physical needs of men

 

[purf]

+1, OP
with cream and cherry on top and seriously and no sarcasm here.
These threads however and that whole "SJW" and whatnot and the responses and fuckinghell!
"Hey, how about we all stop being idiots and become decent human beings instead?"
NO! CONTROVERSY!

What. Blows my mind.

 

[Queen Michael]

I've always been what I call an "Of Course!" feminist; I support any feminist idea that'll have you saying "Well, of course that's a good idea."

 

[Erttheking]

You're fighting for a world which does not exist, will not exist and should not exist.

Men and women will always treat each other with double standards, which is fine, because they are different. They expect different things from each other, and there are good reasons for that - both from a natural and a social stand point.

In any case, whats the worst thing your wife had to endure due to "equating female with male sexuality"? Just out of curiosity.

I will respectfully disagree, because your viewpoint is skewed and presupposes humans are only subject to natural impulses, which history shows is clearly false. Humans are fully capable of moving past their baser selves.

The thing is thats absolute trash. Humans don't even have free will, we just have the illusion of it, and thank god for that.

....What the frak is that supposed to mean? Free will is an illusion? Uh, not it's not. You weren't predetermined by fate to type that out. You did it because you wanted to. I just...that claim of yours is not rooted in logic in anyway shape or form! It makes about as much sense as when batman said that "Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast" It's trying to sound deep, but it means nothing.

 

[Directionless]

Hey, second ever topic, and I chose a doozy. But hey, what else is there?


I make sure that I try to walk behind every woman on the street in a way that does not make me seem a threat to them. Because as much as I don't think I am, I might be to her. My 6'2" 300 pound fat frame looks ridiculous in the mirror, but to a 5 foot and change slim woman walking down the street, I am quite possibly a potential monster. I try to educate my friends about this, and slowly they are starting to see it. You might be correct, that some are simply getting upset at nothing. But you don't know if that's correct for all of us.

Oh jesus. This is just insane. Sure, i'm not going to walk behind people like a some shady character with a knife. But altering my walking-mannerisms to persuade people with some predisposed thought process of "Big man, must be a rapist" is not going to happen. This is NOT equality, and it creates a posionous implication. "Oh, i'm male, therefore i know you must think i'm a rapist"

Perpetuating this isn't fighting for equality. To be quite honest, i can't even categorise this weird type of action.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Hey, second ever topic, and I chose a doozy. But hey, what else is there?


I make sure that I try to walk behind every woman on the street in a way that does not make me seem a threat to them. Because as much as I don't think I am, I might be to her. My 6'2" 300 pound fat frame looks ridiculous in the mirror, but to a 5 foot and change slim woman walking down the street, I am quite possibly a potential monster. I try to educate my friends about this, and slowly they are starting to see it. You might be correct, that some are simply getting upset at nothing. But you don't know if that's correct for all of us.

Oh jesus. This is just insane. Sure, i'm not going to walk behind people like a some shady character with a knife. But altering my walking-mannerisms to persuade people with some predisposed thought process of "Big man, must be a rapist" is not going to happen. This is NOT equality, and it creates a posionous implication. "Oh, i'm male, therefore i know you must think i'm a rapist"

Perpetuating this isn't fighting for equality. To be quite honest, i can't even categorise this weird type of action.

You'll note that the OP didn't say anything about "must be a rapist" or "all men are rapists" or any such thing.

Women are told they are responsible for not being raped. If the OP did turn out to be a rapist, the victim would be blamed for not taking enough precautions. Rapists rarely go around with signs saying "I'm the one to avoid", women have to be careful of all men if they are to be careful of the ones that are rapists.

Yes, it's ludicrous, but unfortunately the attitude seems unlikely to go away.

 

[Directionless]

You're fighting for a world which does not exist, will not exist and should not exist.

Men and women will always treat each other with double standards, which is fine, because they are different. They expect different things from each other, and there are good reasons for that - both from a natural and a social stand point.

In any case, whats the worst thing your wife had to endure due to "equating female with male sexuality"? Just out of curiosity.

I will respectfully disagree, because your viewpoint is skewed and presupposes humans are only subject to natural impulses, which history shows is clearly false. Humans are fully capable of moving past their baser selves.

The thing is thats absolute trash. Humans don't even have free will, we just have the illusion of it, and thank god for that.

....What the frak is that supposed to mean? Free will is an illusion? Uh, not it's not. You weren't predetermined by fate to type that out. You did it because you wanted to. I just...that claim of yours is not rooted in logic in anyway shape or form! It makes about as much sense as when batman said that "Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast" It's trying to sound deep, but it means nothing.

If you accept atomic theory, then you have to accept that people don't have free will. To believe there is free will in a universe where atomic reactions and subsequent actions take place, then believing that humans control the electrostatic atomic interactions in our head would be to believe that humans can control the atomic structure of the universe.

That said, we're humans. We can't be detached enough to accept that as the way of things, so just do what makes you feel good. That's all anyone can do.

@ theluikhain: He said he was a potential monster. IN this context, i'm quite sure he was implying that he believes himself to appear as a rapist. Or murderer. Which is even worse.

 

[Thaluikhain]

If you accept atomic theory, then you have to accept that people don't have free will. To believe there is free will in a universe where atomic reactions and subsequent actions take place, then believing that humans control the electrostatic atomic interactions in our head would be to believe that humans can control the atomic structure of the universe.

Hey? How does controlling interactions in their own heads mean they can control it throughout the universe?

 

[Directionless]

If you accept atomic theory, then you have to accept that people don't have free will. To believe there is free will in a universe where atomic reactions and subsequent actions take place, then believing that humans control the electrostatic atomic interactions in our head would be to believe that humans can control the atomic structure of the universe.

Hey? How does controlling interactions in their own heads mean they can control it throughout the universe?

Because electrical activity in the brain is caused by atomic reactions. The electrical activity makes up the brain activity, which is initiated by atomic reactions.

You DONT control the atomic reactions. The atomic reactions control YOU. The atomic reactions take place, well due to magnetic forces. Van der Whaals forces, electrostatic... It's a lot easier to understand once you have a grip on how atoms react with each other.

 

[Erttheking]

You're fighting for a world which does not exist, will not exist and should not exist.

Men and women will always treat each other with double standards, which is fine, because they are different. They expect different things from each other, and there are good reasons for that - both from a natural and a social stand point.

In any case, whats the worst thing your wife had to endure due to "equating female with male sexuality"? Just out of curiosity.

I will respectfully disagree, because your viewpoint is skewed and presupposes humans are only subject to natural impulses, which history shows is clearly false. Humans are fully capable of moving past their baser selves.

The thing is thats absolute trash. Humans don't even have free will, we just have the illusion of it, and thank god for that.

....What the frak is that supposed to mean? Free will is an illusion? Uh, not it's not. You weren't predetermined by fate to type that out. You did it because you wanted to. I just...that claim of yours is not rooted in logic in anyway shape or form! It makes about as much sense as when batman said that "Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast" It's trying to sound deep, but it means nothing.

If you accept atomic theory, then you have to accept that people don't have free will. To believe there is free will in a universe where atomic reactions and subsequent actions take place, then believing that humans control the electrostatic atomic interactions in our head would be to believe that humans can control the atomic structure of the universe.

That said, we're humans. We can't be detached enough to accept that as the way of things, so just do what makes you feel good. That's all anyone can do.

@ theluikhain: He said he was a potential monster. IN this context, i'm quite sure he was implying that he believes himself to appear as a rapist. Or murderer. Which is even worse.

You'll forgive me if I feel like that sounds nonsensical. How do things work if the human race doesn't have free will? Is racism just programed into us by destiny? Are we pre-determined to like one show over the other?

I can't do what makes me feel good. I don't have free will according to you. Therefore I can't. You see how nonsensical this is?

And what the other guy said, what in the name of all that is holy does atomic reactions have to do with anything?

 

[Lictor Face]

....What the frak is that supposed to mean? Free will is an illusion? Uh, not it's not. You weren't predetermined by fate to type that out. You did it because you wanted to. I just...that claim of yours is not rooted in logic in anyway shape or form! It makes about as much sense as when batman said that "Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast" It's trying to sound deep, but it means nothing.

Individually? Perhaps not.

When you look at it collectively? Definitely.

If you truly had free will, you wouldn't hesitate to commit a crime right? If not for the little thing called the law, you'd probably certainly commit a crime without second thought. But because the law has set boundaries and punishment, you hesitate if not outright refuse. Thats already limiting your free will. Add in other dimensions.

Responsibility.

Filial Piety

Patriotism

Social status

Financial status

and more.

 

[Thaluikhain]

@ theluikhain: He said he was a potential monster. IN this context, i'm quite sure he was implying that he believes himself to appear as a rapist. Or murderer. Which is even worse.

If women are told they have to be careful in public, or with strange men, in case men rape them, then they are being told that every man is a potential monster.

 

[Directionless]

You're fighting for a world which does not exist, will not exist and should not exist.

Men and women will always treat each other with double standards, which is fine, because they are different. They expect different things from each other, and there are good reasons for that - both from a natural and a social stand point.

In any case, whats the worst thing your wife had to endure due to "equating female with male sexuality"? Just out of curiosity.

I will respectfully disagree, because your viewpoint is skewed and presupposes humans are only subject to natural impulses, which history shows is clearly false. Humans are fully capable of moving past their baser selves.

The thing is thats absolute trash. Humans don't even have free will, we just have the illusion of it, and thank god for that.

....What the frak is that supposed to mean? Free will is an illusion? Uh, not it's not. You weren't predetermined by fate to type that out. You did it because you wanted to. I just...that claim of yours is not rooted in logic in anyway shape or form! It makes about as much sense as when batman said that "Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast" It's trying to sound deep, but it means nothing.

If you accept atomic theory, then you have to accept that people don't have free will. To believe there is free will in a universe where atomic reactions and subsequent actions take place, then believing that humans control the electrostatic atomic interactions in our head would be to believe that humans can control the atomic structure of the universe.

That said, we're humans. We can't be detached enough to accept that as the way of things, so just do what makes you feel good. That's all anyone can do.

@ theluikhain: He said he was a potential monster. IN this context, i'm quite sure he was implying that he believes himself to appear as a rapist. Or murderer. Which is even worse.

You'll forgive me if I feel like that sounds nonsensical. How do things work if the human race doesn't have free will? Is racism just programed into us by destiny? Are we pre-determined to like one show over the other?

I can't do what makes me feel good. I don't have free will according to you. Therefore I can't. You see how nonsensical this is?

And what the other guy said, what in the name of all that is holy does atomic reactions have to do with anything?

Dude, atomic reactions are EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING IS ATOMS.

Yeah, i'm not going to do this. If you ever feel like it, research basic atomic theory and it's implications. You should be able to find some good summaries on the web.

 

[Erttheking]

....What the frak is that supposed to mean? Free will is an illusion? Uh, not it's not. You weren't predetermined by fate to type that out. You did it because you wanted to. I just...that claim of yours is not rooted in logic in anyway shape or form! It makes about as much sense as when batman said that "Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast" It's trying to sound deep, but it means nothing.

Individually? Perhaps not.

When you look at it collectively? Definitely.

If you truly had free will, you wouldn't hesitate to commit a crime right? If not for the little thing called the law, you'd probably certainly commit a crime without second thought. But because the law has set boundaries and punishment, you hesitate if not outright refuse. Thats already limiting your free will. Add in other dimensions.

Responsibility.

Filial Piety

Patriotism

Social status

Financial status

and more.

So what? We don't have free will unless we have absolute anarchy? We need to be able to do whatever we want whenever we want in order to be considered to have free will? We can't have any form of stability or civilization without it infringing on free will?

 

[Erttheking]

You're fighting for a world which does not exist, will not exist and should not exist.

Men and women will always treat each other with double standards, which is fine, because they are different. They expect different things from each other, and there are good reasons for that - both from a natural and a social stand point.

In any case, whats the worst thing your wife had to endure due to "equating female with male sexuality"? Just out of curiosity.

I will respectfully disagree, because your viewpoint is skewed and presupposes humans are only subject to natural impulses, which history shows is clearly false. Humans are fully capable of moving past their baser selves.

The thing is thats absolute trash. Humans don't even have free will, we just have the illusion of it, and thank god for that.

....What the frak is that supposed to mean? Free will is an illusion? Uh, not it's not. You weren't predetermined by fate to type that out. You did it because you wanted to. I just...that claim of yours is not rooted in logic in anyway shape or form! It makes about as much sense as when batman said that "Punk is nothing but death, and crime, and the rage of a beast" It's trying to sound deep, but it means nothing.

If you accept atomic theory, then you have to accept that people don't have free will. To believe there is free will in a universe where atomic reactions and subsequent actions take place, then believing that humans control the electrostatic atomic interactions in our head would be to believe that humans can control the atomic structure of the universe.

That said, we're humans. We can't be detached enough to accept that as the way of things, so just do what makes you feel good. That's all anyone can do.

@ theluikhain: He said he was a potential monster. IN this context, i'm quite sure he was implying that he believes himself to appear as a rapist. Or murderer. Which is even worse.

You'll forgive me if I feel like that sounds nonsensical. How do things work if the human race doesn't have free will? Is racism just programed into us by destiny? Are we pre-determined to like one show over the other?

I can't do what makes me feel good. I don't have free will according to you. Therefore I can't. You see how nonsensical this is?

And what the other guy said, what in the name of all that is holy does atomic reactions have to do with anything?

Yeah, i'm not going to do this. If you ever feel like it, research basic atomic theory and it's implications. You should be able to find some good summaries on the web.

If you can't explain an argument and you just give up the second I ask you to explain it, then what was the point of bringing it up in the first place

And if "everything is atoms" then how did you decide to stop talking to me? Did the atoms that make up your mind decide they wanted to do something else?

 

[Directionless]

@ theluikhain: He said he was a potential monster. IN this context, i'm quite sure he was implying that he believes himself to appear as a rapist. Or murderer. Which is even worse.

If women are told they have to be careful in public, or with strange men, in case men rape them, then they are being told that every man is a potential monster.

Well that's the same thing as being careful around odd looking fellows because they may be murders. There has to be a point where your paranoia lets up a bit and you stop suspecting every fellow walking behind you is going to sink a knife into your back.