Why illegalizing guns will not work in the U.S

[TheDoctor455]

I'll have to repeat myself from your other topic, because my point still stands.

Ban all guns! Ignore the fact that there are literally millions, if not billions, of guns in the U.S., a good deal of which are in the hands of private owners! The U.K. did it! Never mind the fact that the U.K. has about a quarter of the population and 2 percent of the area. If one country can do it, every country can!

Yes, and ignoring cultural differences makes SO much sense.

Ignoring the fact that the situations are COMPLETELY different makes SO much sense.

 

[tangoprime]

America hasn't tried banning guns and committing to it, have they? Seems to me that nothing else has worked so far. Could be worth a try.

When guns were banned in Australia, the murder rate dropped on par with that of the United States in the following 5 years. But violent crime went up 42.2%. Rape went up 29.9%. No thanks.

That is an interesting piece of information. Where did you find it?

I've linked it a half dozen times already throughout this thread as people have asked, but here it is again:
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

 

[Xanex]

List of worst US serial killers in the US.

Gary Ridgway- Truck painter who confessed to killing 71 women. The United States' most prolific serial killer; also known as The Green River Killer. He almost exclusively targeted escorts from Seattle. Once there, he would proposition a prostitute, drive to the banks of the Green River, and strangle her to death. After murdering his victim he would dump her body near the nearby water. Suspected of killing over 90 victims, confessed to 71, convicted of 48.

Guns used: none

Ted Bundy- America's first "post-modern" serial killer due to his charisma and good looks. Bundy officially confessed to 30 homicides, but has confessed to killing 35-36 women in the past, and some estimates run upwards of 100 or more. Infamous for escaping from prison twice and murdering multiple victims in one day; sometimes abducting women from the same location within hours of one another.

Guns used: none

John Wayne Gacy- Known to have murdered a minimum of 33 teenage boys and young men between 1972 and 1978, 26 of whom he buried in the crawl space of his Chicago home. Gacy was known as the "Killer Clown" due to the fact he often entertained children at social events dressed in a self devised clown costume. Gacy was executed in 1994.

Guns used: none

Dean Corll- Corll was responsible for the Houston Mass Murders and was murdered by accomplice Elmer Wayne Henley when Corll turned on him. Corll is responsible for the torture and murder of 27 young boys in Pasadena, Tx and elsewhere in southeast Texas.

Guns used: none

Ronald Dominique- Known locally as the Bayou Strangler and murdered 23 victims in the Terrebonne Parish, Lafourche Parish, Iberville Parish and Jefferson Parish.

Guns used: none

Patrick Kearney- Would pick up young male hitch-hikers or young men from gay bars near Redondo Beach, California, and kill them. 27 known victims.

Guns used: none


Guns are not the problem. Evil people will do evil deeds with or without guns. So punishing all law abiding gun owners because of those determined to break the law with or without guns is senseless.

 

[the clockmaker]

America hasn't tried banning guns and committing to it, have they? Seems to me that nothing else has worked so far. Could be worth a try.

When guns were banned in Australia, the murder rate dropped on par with that of the United States in the following 5 years. But violent crime went up 42.2%. Rape went up 29.9%. No thanks.

Incidence of sexual assault in 1995 1.5 percent
incidence in 2010 0.3 percent
incidence of physical assault in 95 560 per 100 000
incidence in 2010 270 per 100 000
Source -Australia bureau of Statistics
Stop throwing lies out to support your cause, if tighter restrictions on firearms caused an increase, would we not be seeing it here?

And by the way, the vast majority of assaults in Aus are punch ups at pubs and clubs, bad yes, but introducing a gun into a punch up results in deaths instead of a broken nose.

Educate yourself, go out into the world and stop posting nonsense.

edit - and sexual assault covers all forms of inappropriate physical contact, if I were to squeeze your arse, that would be sexual assault, but it would not be rape, it is not, nor has it ever been the equivilent of rape, that major major oversight alone shows how fucking ill informed your source is.

 

[Vegosiux]

Guns are not the problem. Evil people will do evil deeds with or without guns. So punishing all law abiding gun owners because of those determined to break the law with or without guns is senseless.

Okay, let's just round up all "evil people" and dump them on an island somewhere, problem solved.

Now you just need to tell me how I can know for sure which people are "evil". We don't want to have any "law abiding people" left over in the "evil" group or vice versa, do we? And after we do that, and the "evil" and "law abiding" people are completely separated, the "law abiding" folks can enjoy a crime-free utopia, forever, huh?

You speak as if "criminals" or "evil people" are some different breed of human being, a separate, easily distinguishable species. Who the hell can blame me for not taking you seriously?

To say nothing about how some people are so damn willing to stomp their feet and cry "I'm being punished for something I didn't dooooo-hoo-hoooooo!" the moment they're asked to show some responsibility.

 

[the clockmaker]

Its not landlocked which was my point, and it wasnt the fact that the cartels bring guns into the US, which happens with the higher rate of fire dangerous weapons, but that their little wars tend to spill over into gang warfare in our nation, which is a particular problem I do not believe Australia faces.

Well, we dont have one EVERY year, more around every 2 years, but sure I will put my hand up if it makes you happy.

No, instead of having a much weaker corruption and crime ridden nation to our south, we have a much much stronger corruption and crime ridden nation to our north. In addition, you try guarding your borders when your entire north coast is almost entirely uninhabited and your entire defence force could fit into the MCG on grand final day.

It is not that we don't have gangs and ethnic conflict in Aus, it is just that we don't let them have assault rifles.

And please look up what land locked means.

 

[J Tyran]

Its not landlocked which was my point, and it wasnt the fact that the cartels bring guns into the US, which happens with the higher rate of fire dangerous weapons, but that their little wars tend to spill over into gang warfare in our nation, which is a particular problem I do not believe Australia faces.

Well, we dont have one EVERY year, more around every 2 years, but sure I will put my hand up if it makes you happy.

No, instead of having a much weaker corruption and crime ridden nation to our south, we have a much much stronger corruption and crime ridden nation to our north. In addition, you try guarding your borders when your entire north coast is almost entirely uninhabited and your entire defence force could fit into the MCG on grand final day.

It is not that we don't have gangs and ethnic conflict in Aus, it is just that we don't let them have assault rifles.

And please look up what land locked means.

You are wasting your breath, the pro gun Americans would have you believe that all smuggling happens by a dude walking over a land border. They conveniently forget the billions of tons of cargo in hundreds of millions of ISO containers and the countless mules on ferries, boats and airliners.

Having a sea border or land border is largely irrelevant to the amount of smuggling that goes on.

 

[Faraja]

Well, there is a line in Shoot 'Em Up which I think is just brilliant:
Hertz: He swore to protect our right...
Smith: To go deer-hunting with an Uzi.
And that's the point: why would anyone need fully automatic high caliber assault rifles? (And yes, I know an Uzi is not one, but you get the point) Those things are made for the military, the police forces at a cusp, but a normal person does not need one. Down here in The Netherlands, gun control is very strict, guns are only available for hunting and guess what? We hardly have any nutjobs who shoot holes in schoolchildren.

Except for that one time.

By the way, you might not realize this, but Europeans have really pulled out their own teeth. At this point, you only have as much power as your governments say you have. They do something you don't like? Sure, you can protest, but what are you going to do if the government goes ahead and decides to keep doing it anyways? Protest more? In the end, you hold no real power. Your governments have to reason to fear you as a group.

 

[tangoprime]

America hasn't tried banning guns and committing to it, have they? Seems to me that nothing else has worked so far. Could be worth a try.

When guns were banned in Australia, the murder rate dropped on par with that of the United States in the following 5 years. But violent crime went up 42.2%. Rape went up 29.9%. No thanks.

Incidence of sexual assault in 1995 1.5 percent
incidence in 2010 0.3 percent
incidence of physical assault in 95 560 per 100 000
incidence in 2010 270 per 100 000
Source -Australia bureau of Statistics
Stop throwing lies out to support your cause, if tighter restrictions on firearms caused an increase, would we not be seeing it here?

And by the way, the vast majority of assaults in Aus are punch ups at pubs and clubs, bad yes, but introducing a gun into a punch up results in deaths instead of a broken nose.

Educate yourself, go out into the world and stop posting nonsense.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847
Here's mine, care to show me yours?

If you'd read any of my other posts and care to refute my logic, go for it. I've lived in places where the law abiding citizen was disarmed, and had to fear for their lives of armed criminals. It should be the other way around, and I now enjoy living somewhere where that is the case.

 

[Rigs83]

You talk about removing guns from private owners like it'd be impossible- I present to you this. Give them insintive- Give them a chance to turn them in for money, any that don't have their's taken away by force, preferably by the Military. What are they going to do? Shoot the soldiers at their door who are armed to the teeth?

Actually the whole Revolution kind of started in Lexington, MA when a bunch of British soldiers showed to take away the colonists guns so yeah you do shoot the soldier who shows up at your door. If the American soldier was so superior why is Vietnam not the 51st state?

What is an untrained civilian popolous going to do against a fucking TANK
Most people in the US are reasoned enough to give up something at gun point.

IED, a rifle firing standard NATO rounds will not penetrate tank armor and few people actually have access to weapons that can penetrate it and even then those tend to be either bolt action or fall under the small clip laws so unless a new assault weapon ban includes high caliber rounds you may still be able to have access to them.

 

[Vegosiux]

You just further prove my point that Europeans are spineless. You can sit there, and waste potential generations under totalitarian dictatorships, or you can end the problem now. But, you know, not taking a hard stand is so much easier then risking your life for your people and your country. A lot has been changed by protesting. It led to the Civil Rights laws, women's suffrage, and a number of other great things.

Maybe you should brush up on history a bit, mate. Oh yeah, I forgot, history doesn't even exist before the 1770's to you and your ilk...

And even if we only look to the history relevant to the average "FUCK YEA! U! S! A!" type of person...

Europe has seen its share of blood. Only because you were comfortably sitting on your ass over the Atlantic while Europe bled can you assert such arrogant attitude. Have your country leveled to the ground twice in the span of 30 years, and let's see you rebuild. Come on, I dare you.

 

[Faraja]

all you people are right,bad guys are going to kill people any way so lets let them have guns, may as well make it easy for them.

let not talk bull shit shall we, lets get are heads away from brain washing shit from childhoods, people will commit crimes but it is are job as members of the human race to make it are hard as we can for them to do it. you can't just say "they'll just do it any way" because they wont, dont fucking lie and tell me mass murders of children will happen without guns. sure murders will happen, people will murder other people but without automatic weapons or conseld arms or rifes you are making it hard for them to kill, very hard. the difference between kill 20 with a knife and killing 20 with a gun of any kind is so huge it isnt even worth bring up.

all you gun supports just boggle my mind, children have died, children, and you dont see guns as a problem, it just shocks me that some of you sit there and think a country full of guns isnt a problem or is okay.

The murders were committed by a disturbed man. Let's round 'em all up and get rid of them! After all, schizoids and sociopaths have no real concept of the value of human life, either, so let's just get rid of them!

Your "think of the children" argument is sad and pathetic. Far more kids are going to die tonight from very easy to solve issues then will at the hands of guns. I don't see you doing anything to fix those problems.

 

[Vegosiux]

I don't see you doing anything to fix those problems.

Well you'd have to, you know, actually get to know a person and spend some time with them before you can actually see them doing anything, don't you think?

On that note, I don't see you doing anything to fix anything either. Oh no, don't say it, I'm sure you can't because you're busy making mad money somewhere, cause you're awesome.

Yet, frankly, the people I'd suspect would want to declare themselves supreme führer and oppress me are the people who act as if they're so fucking superior and above me.

Now who has been acting that way for a while around here, I wonder?

 

[Faraja]

You just further prove my point that Europeans are spineless. You can sit there, and waste potential generations under totalitarian dictatorships, or you can end the problem now. But, you know, not taking a hard stand is so much easier then risking your life for your people and your country. A lot has been changed by protesting. It led to the Civil Rights laws, women's suffrage, and a number of other great things.

Maybe you should brush up on history a bit, mate. Oh yeah, I forgot, history doesn't even exist before the 1770's to you and your ilk...

And even if we only look to the history relevant to the average "FUCK YEA! U! S! A!" type of person...

Europe has seen its share of blood. Only because you were comfortably sitting on your ass over the Atlantic while Europe bled can you assert such arrogant attitude. Have your country leveled to the ground twice in the span of 30 years, and let's see you rebuild. Come on, I dare you.

Don't have to, we saw that shit coming. The US began to prepare for conflict with the Japanese Empire long before they started expanding. When war broke out in Europe, the US instituted a draft to rapidly expand it's armed forces, and created the Lend-Lease program to aid the Allied powers. We knew it was only a matter of time before we had to get involved, but some of our politicians wanted to keep us out of a European conflict as long as possible. When the USSR emerged as the other major world power, we were preparing for the inevitability (not the possibility) of global nuclear war.

The European nations (by which I mean France, England, and Germany) used to ready for a fight. Now it seems like you've all gone limp.

 

[Vegosiux]

The European nations (by which I mean France, England, and Germany) used to ready for a fight. Now it seems like you've all gone limp.

Uhm. Okay. When you say "you all" do you mean the three you mention, or the complete 50-ish of those that actually exist in Europe (give or take, depending what you consider part of Asia and what might be too small to be a nation if you want to be a bit derisive)?

 

[Faraja]

[post="18.396399.16143361"]I don't see you doing anything to fix those problems.[/quote]

Well you'd have to, you know, actually get to know a person and spend some time with them before you can actually see them doing anything, don't you think?

On that note, I don't see you doing anything to fix anything either. And frankly, the people I'd suspect would want to declare themselves supreme führer and oppress me are the people who act as if they're so fucking superior and above me.

A bit like what you've been doing in the recent posts.[/quote]

I don't look at modern Europe in a positive light, at all. I don't deny that. I see Europe as a continent becoming increasingly weak and reliant on others, and unwilling to do anything about it. I also expect the European Union to blow up within the next thirty years.

You might also want to go back and re-read my posts, I fully support the rights of the people to arm themselves for personal, home, and national defense. Be that from a foreign power, or a domestic government gone rogue.

 

[Friendly Lich]

Sadly this thread has devolved into a "my nation is better than yours" argument.

 

[Faraja]

The European nations (by which I mean France, England, and Germany) used to ready for a fight. Now it seems like you've all gone limp.

Uhm. Okay. When you say "you all" do you mean the three you mention, or the complete 50-ish of those that actually exist in Europe (give or take, depending what you consider part of Asia and what might be too small to be a nation if you want to be a bit derisive)?

Pretty much those three, as they're the ones I'd expect to understand the inherent value in being able to stand up for yourself, and to protect yourself with lethal force if necessary, from a fucked situation. Especially Germany and France.

 

[Vegosiux]

I don't look at modern Europe in a positive light, at all. I don't deny that. I see Europe as a continent becoming increasingly weak and reliant on others, and unwilling to do anything about it. I also expect the European Union to blow up within the next thirty years.

Can you even list a few European countries that are not EU members without looking it up on google? For that matter, do you even know how many countries are in the EU? Do you know how the EU is set up functionally, what's the role of the Parliament, of the Commission, the ECB? Or are you just hating on something you might know some vague facts about and decided you don't need to bother learning more, because it's a pile of crap anyway?

I'm asking rhetorically, mind, since, it's the age of the internet after all, but if you can at least be honest with yourself I would be inclined to give you the measure of respect you're not willing to give me, because I committed the crime of "being European" and am therefore not worthy of your respect.